Judge Says Native Americans Waited Too Long to Sue Commanders Over Name

[Bob Sacamano]

bbgun going to bat for his fav team lol

 

[Hostile]

bbgun going to bat for his fav team lol

Nah, he's a true blue Cowboys fan. I know you're just joking, but I want to defend him since he gets accused of that occasionally.

He's a cynic and has little regard for Cowboys fans, but they are his team. On that there is no mistake.

 

[bbgun]

I never said he was the only one. Just that I found the generalization funny because of that. Few have been more outspoken about this than I have. I guess you meant me instead.

Impossible. Cultural libs don't care for John Wayne, so that excludes you.

 

[bbgun]

Nah, he's a true blue Cowboys fan. I know you're just joking, but I want to defend him since he gets accused of that occasionally.

He's a cynic and has little regard for Cowboys fans, but they are his team. On that there is no mistake.

New year, same old ****. But thanks for the kind words.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

New year, same old ****. But thanks for the kind words.

chill, I'm just busting your porkchops

 

[Tovya]

Very good post. I would add, however, that while minorities must not use the past to make excuses, whites also need to understand that the future of any people is a result of their past and must not dismiss the adversities faced in certain minority communities as those communities "just not wanting to do better."

Even entrenched mindsets and present-day plights are based on past treatment, denied opportunities and injustices.

I certainly agree with your sentiments, and I certainly wouldn't deny that a large part of why I stood in line at 5 years old begging for scraps from missionaries has a lot to do with past injustices.

With that being said, other peoples thoughts and the actions of their parents or ancestors is just not that important past the historical significance. Remembering what happened is deathly important because if we forget the past, we might very well repeat those mistakes. But as long as we progressively move beyond the past and towards a better future, complaining about how things were does nothing for anyone.

Yes, we were forced onto cramped reservations by broken Federal treaties. Is this an unfortunate mark upon the history of America? There is no doubt that it is. And if we were still forced to remain on reservations as charity cases, then I would certainly agree that we were still being held back.

But the truth of the matter is that the yolk of oppression was removed from our necks, and we are now largely equal to other Americans.

In reality, the reservation was created as a barrier to keep us away from society, but has been transformed into an excuse to keep our own selves away from society. The reservation has become our shield to protect our culture.

I'm not stating that culture isn't important. I believe that each person's heritage is a very important part of their being... no matter what that culture might be. I just think that hiding behind the guise of culture at the expense of progression is shameful.

Is your culture more important than feeding your children? Of course not. Both culture and progression can easily go hand-in-hand if you so desire.

The problem of the reservation system was originally created by the U.S. Federal Government, but was sown by the reservation leadership... and hence we have reaped poverty.

Complaining about how others portray our culture doesn't help feed malnourished children, nor does it keep them clothed.

For arguments sake, let's just say that tomorrow the Washington Commanders became the Washington Fighting Senators. Hey, I've got no gripe with this (but maybe the senators who like to argue would? ) but in all seriousness, what does this change? Nothing. The Native American standard of living will change exactly zero percent.

Fine, move on to the Florida Seminoles, and the Cleveland Indians... they stop their supposed insults to our culture... how am I or my family bettered by this? As you probably guessed, not in the least bit.

The kids are still itching to join street gangs, their mothers are still barely able to put scraps of food on the table, and their father is still hanging out at the local bar lost in a drunken slumber.

It's not that I don't agree with changing the hearts and minds of the masses, because I truly believe that it's a noble gesture. But I also believe that forcing people to apologize for history should be the last worry to be marked off of our list of things to do.

The reservation leadership has never been about this... they are too busy complaining about team names, mascots, and gestures to do anything about the things that really matter. That really is my only gripe. Instead of spending the money to fight the real problems that face our people, the leadership would rather spend our money on attorney's to sue sports teams & universities for things that do nothing to fix our real problems.

 

[Skinsmaniac]

I found this really funny.

By far the most Conservative person on this forum is Danny White. He is so opposed to the name that he refuses to type it out. Instead he writes Redsk*ns.

Reminder...let's keep politics out of this. Talk Politics in the Political Zone. There is some leeway in this thread given how good the discussion has been, but let's not go overboard.

George Preston Marshall was the biggest racist in NFL History. He owned the Commanders from 1932 until 1969 when he passed away. He was not a closet racist though. He was open about it. The NFL had Black players from its inception. One year after Marshall joined the NFL they disallowed Black players due to his powerful influence.

From 1933 to 1946 there were no Blacks in the NFL. Then the other teams began to use Black players and even draft them from 1949 on. Marshall and the Commanders refused. In fact he did not draft a Black player until 1962 and that was only after the Kennedy Administration threatened to revoke his lease on Commanders Stadium (later RFK) if he did not change his ways.

In 1962 Marshall drafted Syracuse RB Ernie Davis who refused to play for "that S.O.B." So his rights were traded to Cleveland for Bobby Mitchell and he became the very first Black to play for the Commanders.

30 years of racial segregation doesn't equal closet racists to me.

So, because he hated African-Americans, he hated Native Americans too? Who was the first Native American coach of the Cowboys? Marshall was a you-know-what but it has no relevance to the conversation we're having.

 

[Skinsmaniac]

Maybe its about origins?

Hmm.

This is why the entire conversation has been over your head.

 

[links18]

It always cracks me up when the subject of racial equality and/or oppression makes it's yearly appearance here.

Just an FYI to all you bleeding heart, PC'rs.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "NATIVE AMERICAN"!!!

EVERYONE that settled the N and S American continents, came across the Bering Land bridge, and/or migrated from the Asia Minor Land bridge etc etc.

People act like the founders of N America invented slavery and depression over other civilizations, totally disregarding what was a right-of-passage for empires from 1000 BC and before.

Here's some easy reading for y'all on the subject. Study what the Romans did to the Goths, or what the Spartans did with the Mesopotamians. Y'all think they "discovered" this? Wise up!

Actually, there is some evidence, both genetic and archaeological, that neolithic peoples from Europe crossed the ocean to North America during one of the ice ages prior to the arrival of people from Asia over the land bridge.

 

[peplaw06]

So, because he hated African-Americans, he hated Native Americans too?

Someone who is that blatant of a bigot is not a selective bigot.

Who was the first Native American coach of the Cowboys? Marshall was a you-know-what but it has no relevance to the conversation we're having.

Your question has no relevance. But the fact that the guy who came up with your team name was an in your face racist does have a lot of relevance as to whether the term is/was actually a racist term.

 

[ComicBookGuy]

Funny...I thought political talk wasn't allowed on here.

 

[notherbob]

I certainly agree with your sentiments, and I certainly wouldn't deny that a large part of why I stood in line at 5 years old begging for scraps from missionaries has a lot to do with past injustices.

With that being said, other peoples thoughts and the actions of their parents or ancestors is just not that important past the historical significance. Remembering what happened is deathly important because if we forget the past, we might very well repeat those mistakes. But as long as we progressively move beyond the past and towards a better future, complaining about how things were does nothing for anyone.

Yes, we were forced onto cramped reservations by broken Federal treaties. Is this an unfortunate mark upon the history of America? There is no doubt that it is. And if we were still forced to remain on reservations as charity cases, then I would certainly agree that we were still being held back.

But the truth of the matter is that the yolk of oppression was removed from our necks, and we are now largely equal to other Americans.

In reality, the reservation was created as a barrier to keep us away from society, but has been transformed into an excuse to keep our own selves away from society. The reservation has become our shield to protect our culture.

I'm not stating that culture isn't important. I believe that each person's heritage is a very important part of their being... no matter what that culture might be. I just think that hiding behind the guise of culture at the expense of progression is shameful.

Is your culture more important than feeding your children? Of course not. Both culture and progression can easily go hand-in-hand if you so desire.

The problem of the reservation system was originally created by the U.S. Federal Government, but was sown by the reservation leadership... and hence we have reaped poverty.

Complaining about how others portray our culture doesn't help feed malnourished children, nor does it keep them clothed.

For arguments sake, let's just say that tomorrow the Washington Commanders became the Washington Fighting Senators. Hey, I've got no gripe with this (but maybe the senators who like to argue would? ) but in all seriousness, what does this change? Nothing. The Native American standard of living will change exactly zero percent.

Fine, move on to the Florida Seminoles, and the Cleveland Indians... they stop their supposed insults to our culture... how am I or my family bettered by this? As you probably guessed, not in the least bit.

The kids are still itching to join street gangs, their mothers are still barely able to put scraps of food on the table, and their father is still hanging out at the local bar lost in a drunken slumber.

It's not that I don't agree with changing the hearts and minds of the masses, because I truly believe that it's a noble gesture. But I also believe that forcing people to apologize for history should be the last worry to be marked off of our list of things to do.

The reservation leadership has never been about this... they are too busy complaining about team names, mascots, and gestures to do anything about the things that really matter. That really is my only gripe. Instead of spending the money to fight the real problems that face our people, the leadership would rather spend our money on attorney's to sue sports teams & universities for things that do nothing to fix our real problems.

You make some very good points with which I have much agreement. What reservation were you on? I didn't know the Muskogee had any reservations, only their "homeland" that overlays eastern OK. The big problem with most formal organized tribes I know of are that the chiefs are essentially dictators who put their own personal and political interests above tribal welfare.

Whoever can soften the hearts of the chiefs can do the tribal members the most good. Pretty much like washington. Lotta tribes need people like you to help them learn to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. Gotta watch out for those chiefs, though, sometimes they can get real possessive and even hostile at times. One thing I learned among the Cherokee and the Choctaw is that tribal splits and loyalties can go back hundreds of years along family lines. I stay out of their squabbles.

I was born between Tahlequah and Fort Gibson, not that far from Muskogee.

 

[Tovya]

You make some very good points with which I have much agreement. What reservation were you on? I didn't know the Muskogee had any reservations, only their "homeland" that overlays eastern OK. The big problem with most formal organized tribes I know of are that the chiefs are essentially dictators who put their own personal and political interests above tribal welfare.

Whoever can soften the hearts of the chiefs can do the tribal members the most good. Pretty much like washington. Lotta tribes need people like you to help them learn to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. Gotta watch out for those chiefs, though, sometimes they can get real possessive and even hostile at times. One thing I learned among the Cherokee and the Choctaw is that tribal splits and loyalties can go back hundreds of years along family lines. I stay out of their squabbles.

I was born between Tahlequah and Fort Gibson, not that far from Muskogee.

Crazy enough, I didn't actually grow up around many of other Muskogee by the time I was old enough to know... I was always told that the standards had been watered down too much, and that the official 'tribe' was actually more white than red. I honestly don't care about that really.

I did live near Apache around the Kiowa because of intermarried family, etc, and with the Lakota for the same reason on Rosebud in SD for quite sometime, and other places. We originally moved from 'Bama. The OK tribes actually have it pretty good compared to others because the state embraces the whole culture and total integrates it into the state economy.

Rosebud especially had a ton of problems back then... you wouldn't have wanted to be white and walk the streets at night. Which of course is what I was talking about all along. Instead of fixing problems, there was too much focus on the past and blaming white America and therefore everyone was stuck in the same downward spiral.

Complaining about team mascots is just an extension of that in mine and a lot of others opinions. Just silly arguments that don't really progress us into the 21st century.

 

[Hostile]

So, because he hated African-Americans, he hated Native Americans too? Who was the first Native American coach of the Cowboys? Marshall was a you-know-what but it has no relevance to the conversation we're having.

If you have some evidence that he was a selective racist I'd be open minded to hear it. Not opinion mind you, evidence.

This is why the entire conversation has been over your head.

Nothing is over my head. I just don't rationalize stuff.

 

[notherbob]

Crazy enough, I didn't actually grow up around many of other Muskogee by the time I was old enough to know... I was always told that the standards had been watered down too much, and that the official 'tribe' was actually more white than red. I honestly don't care about that really.

I did live near Apache around the Kiowa because of intermarried family, etc, and with the Lakota for the same reason on Rosebud in SD for quite sometime, and other places. We originally moved from 'Bama. The OK tribes actually have it pretty good compared to others because the state embraces the whole culture and total integrates it into the state economy.

Rosebud especially had a ton of problems back then... you wouldn't have wanted to be white and walk the streets at night. Which of course is what I was talking about all along. Instead of fixing problems, there was too much focus on the past and blaming white America and therefore everyone was stuck in the same downward spiral.

Complaining about team mascots is just an extension of that in mine and a lot of others opinions. Just silly arguments that don't really progress us into the 21st century.

Now I understand.

I grew up with a few Lacota from the Ogalala res only back then they were called Souix. Some were kinda quiet and some were very aggressive and all to easily riled up. I used to communicate with a lotta the people via the NDN message boards but got tired of all the arguing and haven't been online with them for years. Too busy trying to make a living and keep a civil demeanor.

Good luck to you.

Nahollo Bob

 

[SilverStarCowboy]

Probably cause there arent enough Natives to defend themselves.

Yeah the few Commanders left live in Oklahoma not Washington.

 

[notherbob]

Actually, if anyone in the Washington Organization had any sense, they would change their name to the Washington Americans and with the level of patriotism today would likely become almost by default, America's most popular team, you know, America's team, the Washington Americans. Of course that would presume a level of intelligence that is obviously missing in Washington's management.

One might say there is a SHORTAGE of intelligence there. Pun clearly intended.

 

[Tovya]

Actually, if anyone in the Washington Organization had any sense, they would change their name to the Washington Americans and with the level of patriotism today would likely become almost by default, America's most popular team, you know, America's team, the Washington Americans. Of course that would presume a level of intelligence that is obviously missing in Washington's management.

One might say there is a SHORTAGE of intelligence there. Pun clearly intended.

I don't know... after all the name New England Patriots screams patriotism and they didn't have a single fan outside of Boston before about a decade ago. And now, they might just be the most hated team in America. I guess it kind of proves this threads point that a team's name doesn't really mean too much, and that reading into it too much is kind of silly.

But the name Washington Americans sounds kind of catchy I will admit... but I want the name to stay the same either way.