Judge Says Native Americans Waited Too Long to Sue Commanders Over Name

[Tovya]

will smith the actor. for most of his career he was the same guy in every movie. must like sean connery. love the man, but geez dude. act. do something different. will smith was that same kind of guy. funny, but not a good actor.

then i saw "the pursuit of happyness".

will smith has the potential to be this generations tom hanks.

and tom hanks, to me, is the best actor we've seen in our lifetime.

sorry - back to the regular discussion. : )

LOL, yeah I think the Pursuit of Happiness was the movie for me that showed me he can take on serious stuff as well... but then again, Enemy of the State was another one of those. He was witty and funny, but took on the serious subjects quite well. I think I always liked him, because even in the 80s and 90s rap years, he was always respectable and not too over the top. You could listen to his music without upsetting the parents... anyway, like you said, back to the regular discussion :

 

[Tovya]

Hey Hos, i'm glad you enjoyed the discussion as well. I agree with Tovya about worring about annoying other zoners on this forum. I believe most people would rather not talk about this types of issues at all. Personally, as long as you have an informed perspective and can discuss the issues 'civilly' we need to address it rather than buring our heads in the sand.

I actually just came back from a gathering of friends with a few natives in the group and i brought up this issue with the group. And as you can imagine the conversation took a life of its own and diverged into so many issues, starting with what each 'native' prefered to be called, i.e., Indian, Native-American, Indian-American, etc..... I wont bore you with all the details but what is a great lesson in these discussions is the fact that there is a lot of diversity with in the so called 'Natives', not just the different tribes they come from, but also thier political and social stance on various issues. All of the three 'Natives' that were at the gathering wanted to be refered to by a different designation, 'Indian', 'Native-American', and 'Indian-American'. All three of them also had different opinions regarding the issue with the 'Commanders'.

Exactly. Some kids I grew up with just wanted to be like everyone else in America.. and American first, and Native second... that's where I fell in (hence the route I took in life.. which also is a result of a mixed parental marriage) Very proud of who I am and where I come from, but realize that to get ahead in life, you can't cut yourself off from the rest of the world.

And then there were the kids whose parents taught them that the white man was the root of all evil and the cause of all of their problems. So it gave them an excuse to drink themselves into oblivion, gang bang, drug use, and eventually hard crimes.

I think it's something you don't hear of much out of Native American population centers and reservations because we were always secluded and cut off from major population centers, so our problems were masked in hiding... unlike African American problems in major population centers like NYC and LA (which are out in the open for the whole world to see).

With that being said, just because we were put in a bad situation doesn't give any of us the excuse as to why we were never able to buck the system and improve our lives. I mean, standing in line to get a food hand out and donated crappy old clothes as a kid was not exactly the highlight of my life... but it taught me that if I didn't want my children to face the same issues and repeat the family curse, I had to break the cycle.

So really, whether it be with Hispanic immigrants, Native Americans, or African Americans or whomever, just because someone else put you in a precarious situation doesn't mean you can't dig out of that hole...

This is America, which is no doubt the greatest and most freedom laced country that has ever existed since time began. Sure this place isn't perfect, but what place is? If you want to better yourself, there is no better place to do it than this fine country. You just have to want it bad enough and be willing to take the first step forward.

Focusing in on what other people think about you in their head or what their ancestors did to you is just a convenient excuse to do absolutely nothing. And then you will just be putting off your responsibility and instead giving it to your children or grandchildren to accomplish. We should certainly remember the past, as it's the key to improving the future, but if we lay around and dwell upon it, then we'll always be standing in line to receive charity.

 

[ethiostar]

Exactly. Some kids I grew up with just wanted to be like everyone else in America.. and American first, and Native second... that's where I fell in (hence the route I took in life.. which also is a result of a mixed parental marriage) Very proud of who I am and where I come from, but realize that to get ahead in life, you can't cut yourself off from the rest of the world.

And then there were the kids whose parents taught them that the white man was the root of all evil and the cause of all of their problems. So it gave them an excuse to drink themselves into oblivion, gang bang, drug use, and eventually hard crimes.

I think it's something you don't hear of much out of Native American population centers and reservations because we were always secluded and cut off from major population centers, so our problems were masked in hiding... unlike African American problems in major population centers like NYC and LA (which are out in the open for the whole world to see).

With that being said, just because we were put in a bad situation doesn't give any of us the excuse as to why we were never able to buck the system and improve our lives. I mean, standing in line to get a food hand out and donated crappy old clothes as a kid was not exactly the highlight of my life... but it taught me that if I didn't want my children to face the same issues and repeat the family curse, I had to break the cycle.

So really, whether it be with Hispanic immigrants, Native Americans, or African Americans or whomever, just because someone else put you in a precarious situation doesn't mean you can't dig out of that hole...

This is America, which is no doubt the greatest and most freedom laced country that has ever existed since time began. Sure this place isn't perfect, but what place is? If you want to better yourself, there is no better place to do it than this fine country. You just have to want it bad enough and be willing to take the first step forward.

Focusing in on what other people think about you in their head or what their ancestors did to you is just a convenient excuse to do absolutely nothing. And then you will just be putting off your responsibility and instead giving it to your children or grandchildren to accomplish. We should certainly remember the past, as it's the key to improving the future, but if we lay around and dwell upon it, then we'll always be standing in line to receive charity.

Tovya, it's really been great discussing these issues with you. I understand your impassionate discussion above and i agree with you for the most part. We can not sit around, collect handouts and blame everything on the past. And i do believe the overwhelming majority of minorities truely try thier best to get ahead in life and improve thier living conditions. Most minorities i personally know are professionals or are working more than one job in order to give thier children a better chance than what they had. Just like in any other society though, there are structural and institutional limitations that make it extremely difficult for certain groups to have as many opportunities compared with other groups. Not just blatant discrimination but subtle ways in which certain groups are in so many ways are discouraged to participate in the economic and political sectors of the societies they live in. Now this doesn't mean there is a pupet master pulling all the strings, but attitudes, stereotypes, lables, etc... can also be very powerful tools as well.

Lets also keep in mind that this country is a very very young country compared to most around the world. Segregation, for example, existed only a little over 60 years ago. It may seem like a long time to some but to others it took place during thier life times. Again, not to say we should dwell on the past but to keep in mind that we are not that far removed from the darker days of blatant discrimination and racism in this country. At the same time, the fact that we have a legitimate presidential candidate who is part black is an indication that we have come a long way to go. On the other hand, the fact that one in every nine young black men are imprisoned should also serve as a signal that we might still have a long way to go.

Having said all of this, I think first and foremost, as an individual and as a community, we have to try everything in our power to overcome what ever obstacles that are put ahead of us in life, whether because of our ethnicity, socioeconomic status, gender, sexuality, etc......

 

[Biggems]

it is simple.....all the blame lies on one person.....MAX HEADROM

This world was completely at peace and full of serenity until Max reared his ugly head.

CURSES TO YOU MAX HEADROM

 

[notherbob]

Exactly. Some kids I grew up with just wanted to be like everyone else in America.. and American first, and Native second... that's where I fell in (hence the route I took in life.. which also is a result of a mixed parental marriage) Very proud of who I am and where I come from, but realize that to get ahead in life, you can't cut yourself off from the rest of the world.

And then there were the kids whose parents taught them that the white man was the root of all evil and the cause of all of their problems. So it gave them an excuse to drink themselves into oblivion, gang bang, drug use, and eventually hard crimes.

I think it's something you don't hear of much out of Native American population centers and reservations because we were always secluded and cut off from major population centers, so our problems were masked in hiding... unlike African American problems in major population centers like NYC and LA (which are out in the open for the whole world to see).

With that being said, just because we were put in a bad situation doesn't give any of us the excuse as to why we were never able to buck the system and improve our lives. I mean, standing in line to get a food hand out and donated crappy old clothes as a kid was not exactly the highlight of my life... but it taught me that if I didn't want my children to face the same issues and repeat the family curse, I had to break the cycle.

So really, whether it be with Hispanic immigrants, Native Americans, or African Americans or whomever, just because someone else put you in a precarious situation doesn't mean you can't dig out of that hole...

This is America, which is no doubt the greatest and most freedom laced country that has ever existed since time began. Sure this place isn't perfect, but what place is? If you want to better yourself, there is no better place to do it than this fine country. You just have to want it bad enough and be willing to take the first step forward.

Focusing in on what other people think about you in their head or what their ancestors did to you is just a convenient excuse to do absolutely nothing. And then you will just be putting off your responsibility and instead giving it to your children or grandchildren to accomplish. We should certainly remember the past, as it's the key to improving the future, but if we lay around and dwell upon it, then we'll always be standing in line to receive charity.

Exactly. More people need to rise above the circumstances of their birth and childhood. Your accomplishments are admirable and I hope many more will see you as an example of what they can do if they apply themselves. Drugs, booze, feeling sorry for yourself and crime aren't the answers, just ask anyone in prison or just the next homeless drunken panhandler you encounter. Yes, these people need help but you can't do it for them, there must be effort on their part.

 

[leeblair]

I think the bottom line to this situation is people looking for any excuse to draw attention to themselves.

A name is a name- and the Commanders have been a part of football for almost as long as the NFL has been around.

But, they are hypocrites about it, too. A few years ago, they protested the World Series between the Indians and the Braves. You had never heard anything about it, but they choose to make an issue of it because it's the World Series, and then they try to draw attention to themselves.

Who cares? That's the real issue. And, I'm not being insensitive, either. It's been around for years, and they just now want to make an issue of it? I don't buy that.

If they were insulting a person individually , then I could see the problem. But to honor a group of people so much that they name their franchise after the race that was first here in America - and then they want to make a stink about it some 70 years after the conception of the team and the name? That spells troublemaker.

The thing about it, is that they don't even name off one tribe. "Commanders" is a name that all native Americans were called routinely by the settlers, and that is how the name came forth. It wasn't meant as an insult, but was simply the name they called them by just like cowboys were called cowboys, and loggers are called loggers. Blacks are called Blacks, and whites are called whites. It's not an insult,and for them to use it to draw attention to themselves is disgraceful.

 

[bbgun]

I'm beginning to suspect that "Commanders" is more offensive to white people (libs, especially) than actual Native Americans. As a youth, I was taught never to take offense unless offense was plainly intended. Unless the Skins organization is fraught with closet racists, I don't think that criterion is met here.

 

[rickwil61]

I think this whole thing is nonsense. Morally and ethically wrong? Give me a break. What harm has came to the American Indian because Washington's football team is the "Commanders"? I am not a 'skins fan but this whole PC thing is ridiculous. Perhaps people who live north of the Mason Dixon line should bring a lawsuit against the Yankees. After all it's a derogatory term...

 

[Tovya]

If they were insulting a person individually , then I could see the problem. But to honor a group of people so much that they name their franchise after the race that was first here in America - and then they want to make a stink about it some 70 years after the conception of the team and the name? That spells troublemaker.

Well, I do agree that most of the groups are doing it to draw attention to themselves (kind of like what Al Sharpton does), but as for the 70 year time frame, that is kind of irrelevant for a couple of reasons...

We didn't have the last 70 years to complain because we were imprisoned on the reservations in the past with little or no voice in the Federal Government and absolutely no money to hire attorneys to handle the issue... trust me when I say that you have no idea what poor really is until you grew up on the reservation. The rich guy in the neighborhood had a 23" B&W TV...

It wasn't until the Indian Bingo Halls & Casinos started popping up that the reservations started seeing any money... but honestly, a lot of the reservations weren't getting the money to the people, and because it's a mostly cash business it was hard to determine how much they were really bringing in so it could be disseminated properly amongst tribal members.

With that being said though, the previous generation wouldn't have sued because they wouldn't have cared. They would have worked on poverty had they had the money at that time... not changing sports franchises mascots.

Even though the name "Commanders" was a derogatory term back then, I have no doubt that they renamed the team what they did for power-image purposes. The Native American Brave/Warrior is a symbol of power then and still is now... they just happened to display that using political incorrectness. But hey, it was the '30s and the concept of political correctness wasn't even a blip on the radar for another 30+ years.

Long story short, it's just a silly argument... not because it's been more than 70 years, but just because the term is just not that insulting... it was picked to highlight a symbol of power, and I actually think that's kind of cool (but I still hate the Washington Commanders!)

 

[Tovya]

I think this whole thing is nonsense. Morally and ethically wrong? Give me a break. What harm has came to the American Indian because Washington's football team is the "Commanders"? I am not a 'skins fan but this whole PC thing is ridiculous. Perhaps people who live north of the Mason Dixon line should bring a lawsuit against the Yankees. After all it's a derogatory term...

Actually, you have a point in a strange kind of way...

I mean, the term "Cowboy" and "Yankee" is used as a derogatory word by foreigners when they talk about us and our troops...

I mean, how many times have you heard foreign media call George W. Bush a "Cowboy" like it was some sort of insult? Tons of times... but if one person dares sue JJ to change the team name of the 'Boys, I swear I will drive to their house and take care of that situation.

 

[rickwil61]

I agree with you. I think "Commanders" was selected by the team because it is a symbol of power. Custer understood that power all too well. I mean assume for the sake of argument that the people who selected the name "Commanders" had a derogatory view of Ameican Indians. Why would you name your football team, something you love, after something that you hold in contempt?

I don't have any ill will toward American Indians or anybody else but when I see these PC stories, they get me spun up because things so easily get blown out of proportion.

 

[DallasCowpoke]

It always cracks me up when the subject of racial equality and/or oppression makes it's yearly appearance here.

Just an FYI to all you bleeding heart, PC'rs.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "NATIVE AMERICAN"!!!

EVERYONE that settled the N and S American continents, came across the Bering Land bridge, and/or migrated from the Asia Minor Land bridge etc etc.

People act like the founders of N America invented slavery and depression over other civilizations, totally disregarding what was a right-of-passage for empires from 1000 BC and before.

Here's some easy reading for y'all on the subject. Study what the Romans did to the Goths, or what the Spartans did with the Mesopotamians. Y'all think they "discovered" this? Wise up!

 

[Tovya]

It always cracks me up when the subject of racial equality and/or oppression makes it's yearly appearance here.

Just an FYI to all you bleeding heart, PC'rs.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "NATIVE AMERICAN"!!!

EVERYONE that settled the N and S American continents, came across the Bering Land bridge, and/or migrated from the Asia Minor Land bridge etc etc.

People act like the founders of N America invented slavery and depression over other civilizations, totally disregarding what was a right-of-passage for empires from 1000 BC and before.

Here's some easy reading for y'all on the subject. Study what the Romans did to the Goths, or what the Spartans did with the Mesopotamians. Y'all think they "discovered" this? Wise up!

Well, actually if you read the thread, you'd see we were having an intelligent and well thought discussion on this subject... and then you walked in and blew that out of the water... but I will re-inject this thread with intelligence if you would be so kind to finish reading the comments that I present to you below...

As for the slavery invention comments, I re-read the entire thread just to make sure, and no one said that Europeans invented slavery. But if you take advantage of something that another civilization invented, it certainly doesn't make that "non-inventing" user of such a system blameless.

In other words, Glock may have made the pistol that I carry, but it's not their fault if I choose to use it unwisely.... and if I do choose to use this "invention" in a negative way, I certainly am to blame.

Did slavery exist? Yes.

Was nearly every treaty with every tribe ever signed by the Federal Government broken? Yes.

Did America eventually realize their mistakes and truly establish a system of equal right for all? Yes.

Therefore sir, while you are certainly a lousy apologist who obviously feels that America commited no injustice upon its minorities... it doesn't change the fact that it did happen. And although this did happen, as I have said all along, it doesn't give us a valid excuse to whine and stay in the ghetto gripping about past injustices.

The very fact that America did change should be the light that guides us to walk out of the shadows of oppression. Minorities in this country must move beyond what has happened and fight the past by changing the future.

This means that although bad things did happen to our ancestors, it doesn't give us the excuse to remain in the ditches of poverty... not when the chains of oppresion have been broken, and the promise of equality finally fulfilled. It means that each of us have an individual responsibility to make ourselves better to honor the sacrifices that our ancestors made for us.

If we do not embrace the opportunity that was finally thrust upon us by a changed America, then the tears of our ancestors and blood of our fathers was shed in vain.... and that is much more tragic than the original sin of oppression that they endured.

 

[Hostile]

I'm beginning to suspect that "Commanders" is more offensive to white people (libs, especially) than actual Native Americans. As a youth, I was taught never to take offense unless offense was plainly intended. Unless the Skins organization is fraught with closet racists, I don't think that criterion is met here.

I found this really funny.

By far the most Conservative person on this forum is Danny White. He is so opposed to the name that he refuses to type it out. Instead he writes Redsk*ns.

Reminder...let's keep politics out of this. Talk Politics in the Political Zone. There is some leeway in this thread given how good the discussion has been, but let's not go overboard.

George Preston Marshall was the biggest racist in NFL History. He owned the Commanders from 1932 until 1969 when he passed away. He was not a closet racist though. He was open about it. The NFL had Black players from its inception. One year after Marshall joined the NFL they disallowed Black players due to his powerful influence.

From 1933 to 1946 there were no Blacks in the NFL. Then the other teams began to use Black players and even draft them from 1949 on. Marshall and the Commanders refused. In fact he did not draft a Black player until 1962 and that was only after the Kennedy Administration threatened to revoke his lease on Commanders Stadium (later RFK) if he did not change his ways.

In 1962 Marshall drafted Syracuse RB Ernie Davis who refused to play for "that S.O.B." So his rights were traded to Cleveland for Bobby Mitchell and he became the very first Black to play for the Commanders.

30 years of racial segregation doesn't equal closet racists to me.

 

[Tovya]

I found this really funny.

By far the most Conservative person on this forum is Danny White. He is so opposed to the name that he refuses to type it out. Instead he writes Redsk*ns.

Reminder...let's keep politics out of this. Talk Politics in the Political Zone. There is some leeway in this thread given how good the discussion has been, but let's not go overboard.

George Preston Marshall was the biggest racist in NFL History. He owned the Commanders from 1932 until 1969 when he passed away. He was not a closet racist though. He was open about it. The NFL had Black players from its inception. One year after Marshall joined the NFL they disallowed Black players due to his powerful influence.

From 1933 to 1946 there were no Blacks in the NFL. Then the other teams began to use Black players and even draft them from 1949 on. Marshall and the Commanders refused. In fact he did not draft a Black player until 1962 and that was only after the Kennedy Administration threatened to revoke his lease on Commanders Stadium (later RFK) if he did not change his ways.

In 1962 Marshall drafted Syracuse RB Ernie Davis who refused to play for "that S.O.B." So his rights were traded to Cleveland for Bobby Mitchell and he became the very first Black to play for the Commanders.

30 years of racial segregation doesn't equal closet racists to me.

Now that is an interesting bit of history that I did not know... I learn something new everyday on this forum. Thanks!

 

[Hostile]

Now that is an interesting bit of history that I did not know... I learn something new everyday on this forum. Thanks!

I have a whole chapter of my book being devoted to this subject.

 

[tyke1doe]

Well, actually if you read the thread, you'd see we were having an intelligent and well thought discussion on this subject... and then you walked in and blew that out of the water... but I will re-inject this thread with intelligence if you would be so kind to finish reading the comments that I present to you below...

As for the slavery invention comments, I re-read the entire thread just to make sure, and no one said that Europeans invented slavery. But if you take advantage of something that another civilization invented, it certainly doesn't make that "non-inventing" user of such a system blameless.

In other words, Glock may have made the pistol that I carry, but it's not their fault if I choose to use it unwisely.... and if I do choose to use this "invention" in a negative way, I certainly am to blame.

Did slavery exist? Yes.

Was nearly every treaty with every tribe ever signed by the Federal Government broken? Yes.

Did America eventually realize their mistakes and truly establish a system of equal right for all? Yes.

Therefore sir, while you are certainly a lousy apologist who obviously feels that America commited no injustice upon its minorities... it doesn't change the fact that it did happen. And although this did happen, as I have said all along, it doesn't give us a valid excuse to whine and stay in the ghetto gripping about past injustices.

The very fact that America did change should be the light that guides us to walk out of the shadows of oppression. Minorities in this country must move beyond what has happened and fight the past by changing the future.

This means that although bad things did happen to our ancestors, it doesn't give us the excuse to remain in the ditches of poverty... not when the chains of oppresion have been broken, and the promise of equality finally fulfilled. It means that each of us have an individual responsibility to make ourselves better to honor the sacrifices that our ancestors made for us.

If we do not embrace the opportunity that was finally thrust upon us by a changed America, then the tears of our ancestors and blood of our fathers was shed in vain.... and that is much more tragic than the original sin of oppression that they endured.

Very good post. I would add, however, that while minorities must not use the past to make excuses, whites also need to understand that the future of any people is a result of their past and must not dismiss the adversities faced in certain minority communities as those communities "just not wanting to do better."

Even entrenched mindsets and present-day plights are based on past treatment, denied opportunities and injustices.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I'm not putting on the gear regardless.

puss in boots

 

[bbgun]

I found this really funny.

By far the most Conservative person on this forum is Danny White. He is so opposed to the name that he refuses to type it out. Instead he writes Redsk*ns.

One person? That's quite a sample.

Reminder...let's keep politics out of this. Talk Politics in the Political Zone. There is some leeway in this thread given how good the discussion has been, but let's not go overboard.

I was referring to cultural/sociological issues, not politics. In fact, much of "PC" is decidedly non-political, such as debates over language.

In the words of Homer Simpson, it's funny because it's true:

http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/05/28/101-being-offended/

George Preston Marshall was the biggest racist in NFL History. He owned the Commanders from 1932 until 1969 when he passed away. He was not a closet racist though. He was open about it. The NFL had Black players from its inception. One year after Marshall joined the NFL they disallowed Black players due to his powerful influence.

From 1933 to 1946 there were no Blacks in the NFL. Then the other teams began to use Black players and even draft them from 1949 on. Marshall and the Commanders refused. In fact he did not draft a Black player until 1962 and that was only after the Kennedy Administration threatened to revoke his lease on Commanders Stadium (later RFK) if he did not change his ways.

In 1962 Marshall drafted Syracuse RB Ernie Davis who refused to play for "that S.O.B." So his rights were traded to Cleveland for Bobby Mitchell and he became the very first Black to play for the Commanders.

30 years of racial segregation doesn't equal closet racists to me.

Yes, I'm well aware of Marshall's notorious past. I was plainly referring to the present-day braintrust at Commanders Park, and I see no reason why the "sins" of the long-dead father should fall on the sons. Unless standup guys like Jack Kent Cooke, George Allen (albeit a jerk), Norv Turner and Joe Gibbs were harboring dark secrets, I tend to believe that the "racist Skins" began and ended with Marshall's ownership.

 

[Hostile]

One person? That's quite a sample.

I never said he was the only one. Just that I found the generalization funny because of that. Few have been more outspoken about this than I have. I guess you meant me instead.

Yes, I'm well aware of Marshall's notorious past. I was plainly referring to the present-day braintrust at Commanders Park, and I see no reason why the "sins" of the long-dead father should fall on the sons. Unless standup guys like Jack Kent Cooke, George Allen (albeit a jerk), Norv Turner and Joe Gibbs were harboring dark secrets, I tend to believe that the "racist Skins" began and ended with Marshall's ownership.

Maybe its about origins?

Hmm.