Judge Says Native Americans Waited Too Long to Sue Commanders Over Name

[links18]

The Commanders name was developed before the civil rights movement and the political correctness movement. Before this, there were all types of team names we would consider to be strange today: The Washington Bullets, Colt .45s (hard to name a team after weapons these days) and in the "Negro Leagues" there were actually teams called "Baltimore Black Sox", "New York Ethiopians," "New York Cubans," etc. Those names are all but memories now, but for some reason the Commanders name was able to survive the change in political and cultural sensitivities. Why? I have no idea. But for some reason our society continues to tolerate it. Is it because it is sports? People display a strange psychological attachment to sports teams that over rides rationality in many cases. Why haven't we seen a movement to boycott the franchise if it is so offensive to people? Fans could refuse to go to Commanders games, players could refuse to play for the team. But that just doesn't happen. I guess it just isn't that important to people in the context of their psychological attachment to sports history. People in DC are not willing to give up their attachment to their team and its history. Are we willing to give up the attachment to the history of our greatest rivalry over this? If we are, there are things we could do about it. Refuse to show up at the Sept 28th game for one. That would send a message.......

 

[Biggems]

What I find funny is that the Illini and Seminoles have been given crap for their names and mascots. The Chiefs, Braves, and even Indians have been given crap. Heck, here in San Antonio, Sam Houston High School changed their name from the Cherokees to the Hurricanes.....cause of the whole Native American backlash (even though Sam Houston was an honorary Cherokee, and to me, that name makes me remember our Native American past instead of forgetting it.) None of those names seem negative to me.......although the Indians may be slightly borderline.

However, the Commanders is blatantly racist. It would be like having the Baltimore Blackskins, the Houston Whiteskins, the San Francisco Yellowskins....etc.

The fact that they are in DC where all the laws are made, is even a bigger slap in the face of all the Native Americans.

 

[Hostile]

Damn this turned into a great discussion thread. I could sit back and enjoy Tovya and Ethiostar conversing on this for a couple of more days.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Okay, the Commanders might be offensive to some people, but what about the Packers? There are a number of activist organizations that can find that name offensive.




















PETA
vegans
etc.,

don't forget gheys

 

[Tovya]

Damn this turned into a great discussion thread. I could sit back and enjoy Tovya and Ethiostar conversing on this for a couple of more days.

LOL, I'm glad you enjoyed it... I was actually a little worried that conversation might start to annoy people.

But then again, that's why I'd single handily support the forum financially to keep it going if it came to it... because it is usually entertaining and insightful... and more importantly keeps my mind busy in the off season

God bless you all.

 

[Hostile]

LOL, I'm glad you enjoyed it... I was actually a little worried that conversation might start to annoy people.

But then again, that's why I'd single handily support the forum financially to keep it going if it came to it... because it is usually entertaining and insightful... and more importantly keeps my mind busy in the off season

God bless you all.

Are you kidding? I feel privileged. I feel guilty adding anything to what you guys discussed and how civilly you did it.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Hos, please take theo out into the desert

 

[cml750]

When I here the name "Commanders" I think of a football team from Washington DC that I do not like. In no way do I think of it in any derogatory way toward Native Americans. People need to chill out. Words are just words. Things can only be offensive if you let them offend you. The people who brought this lawsuit originally need to get a life and be happy. I am glad the judge ruled against them. The PC police in this world are getting ridiculous.

 

[lurkercowboy]

Too late to sure over the Commanders name? I guess they may as well just give up on that Manhattan thing.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

Really though, as far as Native American depictions go, the Commander's logo is far more tasteful than the Indians logo.

Or even the Blackhawks and Florida State Seminoles logo. Those two logos sport face paint and the Seminoles logo gives the appearance of what could be coined as a "war cry".

The FSU logo was designed by the Seminole Tribe of Florida themselves, as was Chief Osceola's costume. They intentionally designed the mascot with war paint. They are proud of their unconquered heritage. Whether or not anyone outside the Tribe thinks the Seminole imagery is offensive does not matter.

When The NCAA tried to force FSU to change their mascot, Seminole Chief Joe Billie said that "this is just another attempt by the white man to tell us what to do."

 

[ethiostar]

Are you kidding? I feel privileged. I feel guilty adding anything to what you guys discussed and how civilly you did it.

Hey Hos, i'm glad you enjoyed the discussion as well. I agree with Tovya about worring about annoying other zoners on this forum. I believe most people would rather not talk about this types of issues at all. Personally, as long as you have an informed perspective and can discuss the issues 'civilly' we need to address it rather than buring our heads in the sand.

I actually just came back from a gathering of friends with a few natives in the group and i brought up this issue with the group. And as you can imagine the conversation took a life of its own and diverged into so many issues, starting with what each 'native' prefered to be called, i.e., Indian, Native-American, Indian-American, etc..... I wont bore you with all the details but what is a great lesson in these discussions is the fact that there is a lot of diversity with in the so called 'Natives', not just the different tribes they come from, but also thier political and social stance on various issues. All of the three 'Natives' that were at the gathering wanted to be refered to by a different designation, 'Indian', 'Native-American', and 'Indian-American'. All three of them also had different opinions regarding the issue with the 'Commanders'.

 

[theogt]

Okay, then instead of saying the word how about you wear some of their gear and let me take you someplace. Don't say a word at all. Just wear the clothes with the logo.

You up for that?

I'm not putting on the gear regardless.

 

[Hostile]

I'm not putting on the gear regardless.

You're a good man. I don't care what Bob says about you.

 

[Hostile]

Hey Hos, i'm glad you enjoyed the discussion as well. I agree with Tovya about worring about annoying other zoners on this forum. I believe most people would rather not talk about this types of issues at all. Personally, as long as you have an informed perspective and can discuss the issues 'civilly' we need to address it rather than buring our heads in the sand.

I actually just came back from a gathering of friends with a few natives in the group and i brought up this issue with the group. And as you can imagine the conversation took a life of its own and diverged into so many issues, starting with what each 'native' prefered to be called, i.e., Indian, Native-American, Indian-American, etc..... I wont bore you with all the details but what is a great lesson in these discussions is the fact that there is a lot of diversity with in the so called 'Natives', not just the different tribes they come from, but also thier political and social stance on various issues. All of the three 'Natives' that were at the gathering wanted to be refered to by a different designation, 'Indian', 'Native-American', and 'Indian-American'. All three of them also had different opinions regarding the issue with the 'Commanders'.

My step dad was a 5'8", 160 pound White River Apache. The word absolutely infuriated him. I never thought much about it until my Mom married him. I learned a whole new perspective on the power of words and the pain they can cause from him.

 

[iceberg]

Exactly. I think all down-trodden races in this country have been guilty of this (my own being no exception). We are all way too quick to blame society for our problems instead of just focusing on yourself and making you better.

I live in the big city now, wife and a couple of kids, near 7 figure salary, and I limit alcohol consumption to a few beers on game day. I managed to fix my own family history of the downward spiral in one quick generation... despite the fact there is a team called the Commanders, Seminole fans doing the Tomahawk chop, and Cleveland Indian fans screaming their tomahawk cheer :

dude. you're just a good person.

good people trancend race.

doing the right thing for the right reason and expecting nothing in return is where it all starts.

 

[iceberg]

I see your point, and I wholeheartedly agree with you. I think that in the past (and somewhat still in the present) the African-American has been portrayed in a negative light by society and more importantly the entertainment industry. In the pre-60s movies he/she was always portrayed as sub-subservient and ignorant. Although this image has largely been squashed, that image has been replaced by the African American gang banger or pimp. But at the same time, celebrities like Will Smith and Densel Washington are helping erase that image by playing the hero and doer of justice... and that is a great thing.

Although fictional, TV shows and movies play an important role in people's perception of races. Can you imagine Will Smith being considered a beau in 1955? No way... but nowadays it's mostly acceptable for a teenage Caucasian girl to think he is the cat's meow. Or can you imaginea white kid having a Barry Sanders, had he played back then, poster on your wall in 1932? It's really just not that big of a deal anymore. All races and shades of people can be any other races hero now.

A large majority of kids both black and white intermix within each other's cliques without ever thinking a second thought about it. Times have changed for both of us.

My only point of disagreement was that if I say "Commanders" everybody says "NFL football team in the NFC East" but if we say the N word (with an "er" at the end mind you) then we all say "derogatory racial term". The N word is a bad term and has always been one and probably always will be. Commanders was a seldom used negative word in the beginning that has largely been forgotten as such and has been replaced as word for the team we all love to hate.

If I were to be picky, I'd be more offended by the KC Chiefs more anyway (although I'm not in the least bit). I've been called "chief" by white folks more than anything else. I don't know if there are any other Native Americans on this board, but I would bet that if there are, they would agree that they have been called this more anyway.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Cheers.

will smith the actor. for most of his career he was the same guy in every movie. must like sean connery. love the man, but geez dude. act. do something different. will smith was that same kind of guy. funny, but not a good actor.

then i saw "the pursuit of happyness".

will smith has the potential to be this generations tom hanks.

and tom hanks, to me, is the best actor we've seen in our lifetime.

sorry - back to the regular discussion. : )

 

[Bob Sacamano]

will smith the actor. for most of his career he was the same guy in every movie. must like sean connery. love the man, but geez dude. act. do something different. will smith was that same kind of guy. funny, but not a good actor.

then i saw "the pursuit of happyness".

will smith has the potential to be this generations tom hanks.

and tom hanks, to me, is the best actor we've seen in our lifetime.

sorry - back to the regular discussion. : )

but I agree w/ you that Tom Hanks is probably the best actor of our generation, what makes him so good is he could do so many roles, funny, serious, and alot of variety in his serious roles, dude can act in almost anything, very well

 

[iceberg]

but I agree w/ you that Tom Hanks is probably the best actor of our generation, what makes him so good is he could do so many roles, funny, serious, and alot of variety in his serious roles, dude can act in almost anything, very well

so go back. tom hanks cross dressing?
big?
batchelor party?

tom hanks started out VERY one sided and VERY type cast. for a long time tom hanks was never considered a serious actor. then came forrest gump.

cheese. yes. but a very different, break out role for him.

the pursuit of happyness was a breakout role for will smith. he "acted" in that role and sold it.

will smith can act. period.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Here's my take on this. I'm Cajun AND Choctaw. This kind of thing doesn't bother me in the least. As a matter of fact, Cajun's even refer to themselves as a coonarse. With that said, I think the Native Americans should sue the Redstinks for everything they can. But for one simple reason.


I HATE THE REDSTINKS!


:dissskin: :skins:

 

[notherbob]

I'm about 1/12 Choctaw but I don't look it because I inherited all my family's Swedish genes and am not a tribal member as my ancestors left Indian Territory before the Dawes Roll. Most team mascot with Indian themes don't offend me but I must admit I see the word Commanders as a derogatory term because I think it means a cruel and vicious renegade, thieving, outlaw Indian who enjoys hurting people and loves inflicting pain and has no redeeming social value. I see it as the Indian equivalent to insulting Black people by calling them ******. It is intended to be insulting, even when Black people use it to describe each other.

Actually, I don't really care what people call me, I'm fairy immune to getting upset over words. Call me any racist name you want, it doesn't bother me.

To me the real problem is too many people being too sensitive about either their ethnicity or perception of self worth. People who can't stand being called names need to grow up and strengthen their self image and not be so prissy about people calling them names. Boys have called eath other derogatory names forever and there is no indication that it will stop any time soon. People need to get over it.

If you love yourself and have a high opinion of yourself and your heritage/ethnicity, just let it roll off. If you have an emotional reaction to words about race, then you're too sensitive about race and need to find a way to lighten up and enjoy life instead of carrying around a negative attitude about yourself and who /what you are.

We are not all of one race, never have been and never will be so we all need to learn to become more tolerant of others and develop a sense of humor about the differences between people and learn to be less serious about our race and more serious about getting along together despite our differences. Those who fan the flames of racial differences aren't trying to solve the problem but exacerbate it for selfish personal or political gain. We need to learn to ignore the race baiters of whatever ilk.

A long time ago a man said that we should forgive people and it would make us feel better - he was right.

In that light, I hereby forgive the Commanders as they neither know nor care what they do. Still want to beat them on the football field; however.

I was born in the spring under the sign of Kokopelli. Even most Indians have no idea what that means anymore because they have lost their culture and their history and do not understand the ancient symbols these days. PM me if you really care to know but to most it won't matter and that's OK, it's what we have become. We no longer follow the ancient ways in the modern world. That was then and this is now.

In the words of that great philosopher, Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?" My answer is not unless we try.