Just say "NO" to converting a DE to OLB...

[Chief]

I don't agree at all. I think the only guy that might struggle in a 4-3 switch would be Canty.

Ware could play end, no problem. Spears would be terrific at a DT position. I think his game would be very similar to Kevin Williams.

Ferguson has publicly said he prefers the 4-3. James, Spears, Ratliff and Ware all played primarily 4-3 in college.

The great thing about last year's draft, besides acquiring great talent, was the fact the players they drafted are flexible enough to succeed in any scheme.

Agree, but I think Canty can be a LDE in a 4-3.

 

[MiStar]

I'm not trying to devalue what Ware did last year. I was trying to get the point across that he was very good at rushing the passer from the edge and making plays in pursuit, but hardly spectacular when teams ran straight at him, or when forced to drop into coverage. The bottom line is that we didn't really needed someone who could get to the QB last year, and Ware did that. Mission accomplished.

My point is this, I think Lawson's game is very similar to Ware's. Which is both a good thing and a bad thing.

While most people seem to realize, or accept that Carpenter is good in coverage, and good at defending the run. On the other hand, very few people seem to realize that this 255 lb white guy, who runs a 4.6 40-yard dash, is an elite passrusher, who gets it done with a combination of speed, tenacity, and quality passrushing moves.

I prefer Carpenter, but the truth is that anyone that we draft to play on the first day, will almost certainly be an upgrade over what we had last year.

 

[Clove]

"Borderline psychotic" doesn't seem overbaord to you? Seriously? (<<< The guys at the Cesspool needed their fix for their obsession with my posting methods.)

:wink2:

http://dallascowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53550

The poll above doesn't exactly back up your assertions. Lawson is the lead dog.

I'd love to have him. Ask AdButcher. We've had some great discussions about bookend OLBs with him and Ware.

Oh, if we went back to a 4-3 what do you do with Canty and Spears? You just toss them aside like yesterday's mail? Something to think about with regards to Carpenter as well. Don't you think?

I highly doubt we go back to a 4-3, but if we did, their's no way in this world that either Spears or Canty could be sack master in a 4-3. They would move to the inside and Lawson and Ware would play ends. Ayodele would be an OLB and James would be inside, and Burnett would be the other OLB.

 

[Clove]

I'm not trying to devalue what Ware did last year. I was trying to get the point across that he was very good at rushing the passer from the edge and making plays in pursuit, but hardly spectacular when teams ran straight at him, or when forced to drop into coverage. The bottom line is that we didn't really needed someone who could get to the QB last year, and Ware did that. Mission accomplished.

My point is this, I think Lawson's game is very similar to Ware's. Which is both a good thing and a bad thing.

While most people seem to realize, or accept that Carpenter is good in coverage, and good at defending the run. On the other hand, very few people seem to realize that this 255 lb white guy, who runs a 4.6 40-yard dash, is an elite passrusher, who gets it done with a combination of speed, tenacity, and quality passrushing moves.

I prefer Carpenter, but the truth is that anyone that we draft to play on the first day, will almost certainly be an upgrade over what we had last year.

Him being a whiteguy is hardly my concern. And he can rush the passer, but so can a ton of other guys. Lawson can get to the passer better, that's my point.

Let's put it this way. If Lawson wasn't in the picture, I would pick Howard and then Carpenter. Howard does what Carpenter does as an OLB, but he's a 4.41 VS 4.61. So If the playing field is even on production, then I'll go with the faster guy.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Him being a whiteguy is hardly my concern. And he can rush the passer, but so can a ton of other guys. Lawson can get to the passer better, that's my point.

Let's put it this way. If Lawson wasn't in the picture, I would pick Howard and then Carpenter. Howard does what Carpenter does as an OLB, but he's a 4.41 VS 4.61. So If the playing field is even on production, then I'll go with the faster guy.

I like Howard. He's one of the ones I mentioned. I'd take him in the second round if he were there.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I've said before that if we came out of this draft with a starting caliber OLB, a starting caliber FS, a WR that could contribute a little this year, an offensive lineman that could contribute this year along with a developmental NT I would be happy as Larry.

 

[Clove]

I've said before that if we came out of this draft with a starting caliber OLB, a starting caliber FS, a WR that could contribute a little this year, an offensive lineman that could contribute this year along with a developmental NT I would be happy as Larry.

This is where we agree.

 

[Silverstar]

Converted DE's are often your very best run stoppers. College DE's have run first responsibilities and are generally much better at shedding and controlling blockers, as they are required to do so on every play on the Line. The only issues come with coverage responsibilites. However I think we would be better off playing to the team strength. We have good coverage CBs and with any luck will improve at the FS position.

Don't forget that OLBs have to take on a tackle with little or no assistance from the front 3. This is not something that any of the Linebackers you mentioned have ever had to manage. I'd rather take the guys with some actual experience in this area if I'm looking for a run stopper.

This is why I'm leaning more towards drafting Wimbley right now for SSLB.

 

[Bobo]

Let's put it this way. If Lawson wasn't in the picture, I would pick Howard and then Carpenter. Howard does what Carpenter does as an OLB, but he's a 4.41 VS 4.61. So If the playing field is even on production, then I'll go with the faster guy.

You seem way to enamored by simple test #'s.

Carpenter played 10 games this year (he was hurt right at the beginning of the 11th game). You've been comparing stats with guys who played 2 more games....and more importantly, weren't rushing the passer as much.

Did you ever see Howard play? I was very unimpressed with this guy that got so much hype because he was "fast". There were two other UTEP LB's with many more tackles than Howard....want to draft them above Howard? Robert Rodriguez had twice as many tackles as Howard last year....want to know how he's doing on the Titans practice squad? Howard looked like a 4-3 Will to me, and that ends any thought of him being a 3-4 OLB IMO. Same with Greenway.

I'm a Burnett fan and watched his whole college career....but I think Carpenter is better suited for the other OLB spot here. I think Burnett's more suited for the inside....if he ever gets healthy :-/

 

[Clove]

You seem way to enamored by simple test #'s.

Carpenter played 10 games this year (he was hurt right at the beginning of the 11th game). You've been comparing stats with guys who played 2 more games....and more importantly, weren't rushing the passer as much.

Did you ever see Howard play? I was very unimpressed with this guy that got so much hype because he was "fast". There were two other UTEP LB's with many more tackles than Howard....want to draft them above Howard? Robert Rodriguez had twice as many tackles as Howard last year....want to know how he's doing on the Titans practice squad? Howard looked like a 4-3 Will to me, and that ends any thought of him being a 3-4 OLB IMO. Same with Greenway.

I'm a Burnett fan and watched his whole college career....but I think Carpenter is better suited for the other OLB spot here. I think Burnett's more suited for the inside....if he ever gets healthy :-/

Did you happen to see Howard play in the Senior Bowl? If you didn't, then I'll tell you with my own eyes, I saw a man amongst boys. He was playing against the best in the country right? And the guy was all over the field. And if you don't like the test numbers and stats, then tell the scouting departments to shut down the combine, and do away with stats.

You seem to KNOW for a fact that Carpenter is the one. And you tell me what makes you think he's the one, since you base nothing on stats and combine numbers.

 

[cboyd]

I seriously think Parcells has Wimbly and Lawson ahead of Carpentar and here is the reason why, Bill likes to mix up his blitz package by putting someone on the ground in the 4-3, yes Carpenatar put his hands on the ground for Ohio State, but it's not like he did this a lot, and Wimbly and Lawson have played DE throughout college, and so they have good pass rushing ability. I don't hate Carpentar, but after seeing Ware play last year I think Jerry and Bill would like to have someone like Ware who has enough agility to play DE and linebacker, and I think Wimbley and Lawson fit that better than Carpentar, and plus Wimbley and Lawson have been talked about being picked ahead of us and I have not heard one single expert say Carpentar is going to go in the top 18, but if we did trade down and get extra picks and Justice, Wimbley, and Lawson are gone the next OLB would probably be Thomas Howard or Carpentar

 

[bayarealightning]

Maybe my .02 cents can add to this discussion. In 2004, the Chargers shifted to the 3-4 and had the 3rd best rushing defense in the NFL. Our starting SOLB was Ben Leber. Ben is a solid player. He plays the run very well and he had a few sacks in his rookie year in the 4-3. The only thing is that you need a playmaker at the OLB position. He was average at getting to the QB. We had Foley at the WOLB and he had a monster year. When we played Indy in '04, Foley had three sacks and the Chargers had a late lead. However, the Colts focused on Foley and Indy came back and won the game. Now, we have Merriman and no one can focus strickly on Foley, and if the focus on Merriman, Foley will kill them (he was injured for most of the season and he missed a few games so his numbers were down).

You have to have a game breaker opposite Ware who can also pressure the QB. If any NFL QB has the time, they will complete passes all day. You have to get to them and get inside the lesser QB's heads. Ware on one side and a freak on the other should make any 'Boys fan estatic. But, that player has to be strong and hold up at the line of scrimage. If there is a player available when you pick, you should draft him.

 

[Bobo]

Did you happen to see Howard play in the Senior Bowl? If you didn't, then I'll tell you with my own eyes, I saw a man amongst boys. He was playing against the best in the country right? And the guy was all over the field. And if you don't like the test numbers and stats, then tell the scouting departments to shut down the combine, and do away with stats.

You seem to KNOW for a fact that Carpenter is the one. And you tell me what makes you think he's the one, since you base nothing on stats and combine numbers.

Howard is a square peg in a round hole for OLB in a 3-4....why even try to fit it when there are better choices?

Where did I ever say I didn't like test #'s and stats? Don't be silly. I was refering to you only going by a 40 time to seperate 2 players that have equal stats. But if you think you can simplify things that much....well maybe you can take Matt Millen's place

Your last paragraph totally lost me. I never said Carpeneter was the one. I'm really split between him and Manny. And I do factor in stats and combine #'s, but your eyes are most important.

 

[Wolf2k5]

im gonna stick by my pipe dream of moving up for hawk. HAHAHAHAHA yeah rite. but seriously id like lawson best

 

[kartr]

I've been looking at the list of defensive ends available for the draft that could be converted to a 3-4 backer...

Manny Lawson
Kamerion Wimbley
Mark Anderson
Darryl Tapp
Jeremy Mincey

And quite truthfully I don't see one of them that would make a good "strongside" OLB in the 3-4.

A see a lot of "good pass rusher" or "has pass rush potential" or "Shows good moves rushing the passer".

But I also see a lot of "Lacks anchor strength" or "Must get stronger" or "Needs to hold up better at the point of attack".

What I don't see is with any of them "Shows good coverage ability" or "Has the abililty to fight through blocks".

I think given the needs of what a strong-side OLB is suppose to do in the 3-4 I don't see how any of these pass-rush specialists are going to do what we need them to do--- even though many here seem to be in love with sacks and damn any other responsibilities.

Given that I think all these defensive ends are a poor fit for our defense I think we're looking at someone who has played OLB in college.

Hawk obviously won't be there at #18.
Bobby Carpenter is a great fit but not necessarily at #18.
Chad Greenway would be a great fit but I doubt he'll be there at #18.
Thomas Howard of UTEP is an intriguing prospect even though he may be better suited to the weakside.

I dunno. I'm not seeing a lot of OLB that have the potential to come on in 2006 and contribute (a lot) on the strong side.

I'm thinking that if we don't select an OLB in the first or second round the SOLB spot is Al Singletons this year. Is that terrible? No not necessarily. I think the defense was better with him out there. And maybe we do have too many holes to fill right now to fill them all out of this one draft.

I like Carpenter, but don't think we should draft him, there are a lot of players that we could get on day 2 such as Clint Ingram of OU or Pierre Woods of MIchigan that can do the same things Carpenter does. I think we should trade down out of the first and focus on pass rushing DT's such as Jonathan Lewis of Va. Tech or Rod. Wright of Texas or Babatunde(sp). This bookend for Demarcus Ware thing ignores the fact that having a bookend for Ware is less important than the overall improvement of our team. We have areas of glaring weaknesses and getting those resolved either in free agency or the draft should take precedence of creating an elite core of lbers. An elite core of linebackers is fine, but not at the expense of leaving glaring weakness of not having a decent pass rusher at the DT position or having an elite 'young corner' to pair with Newman.