Just say "NO" to converting a DE to OLB...

[MichaelWinicki]

Where's your proof that Carpenter will have a better rookie year than Lawson? This entire discussion is about opinions. Or are there some facts you've shared that I missed? And if I made assumptions they are based on the words flowing from BP's mouth every week in his PC's about Ware and the progress he was making every week and the potential he has.

Even a guy that plays OLB in college is probably making a major adjustment coming to a 3-4 pro defense. That's the reason most 3-4 teams look at converting DE's- there are few SOLB's big enough to handle the job. Other than Carpenter can you name 1 in this draft? What you gain in coverage you may give up against the run and in sacks. And as others have pointed out you rarely draft finished products at any position- you don't draft players for one year.

And that's why I believe we're drafting Carpenter.

 

[DLCassidy]

But let me remind you that a single mistake in coverage can devastate your season.

Yeah he did that. But you don't have to be a rookie to make mistakes that cost you. That wasn't Ware messing up at the end of the 1st Washington game was it?

 

[DLCassidy]

And that's why I believe we're drafting Carpenter.

Not at 18.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Not at 18.

OK... I agree. Maybe not at 18 but I'm guessing the player we take first is Carpenter.

 

[Hostile]

Not at 18.

I don't think it's impossible at all. If he's there at 18 and is the player we want and a trade down can't be worked out, take him.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Yeah he did that. But you don't have to be a rookie to make mistakes that cost you. That wasn't Ware messing up at the end of the 1st Washington game was it?

I agree with that too.

But the fewer mistakes overall the better. And there is no doubt in my mind that someone that has played the position as much as Carpenter will make far fewer than someone like Lawson or any of the other convertered DE's.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I don't think it's impossible at all. If he's there at 18 and is the player we want and a trade down can't be worked out, take him.

Good point Hos.

 

[MiStar]

It has a lot to do with it. You're suggesting that he couldn't contain his side. And I say to you, he did just fine containing his side of the field. You show me one player that never loses containment on a running back, and I'll call you God.

I say he did a heck of a job, and yes he did lose containment a few times, but so does everyone. But what I see is someone trying to justify drafting Bobby Carpenter over Manny Lawson, on the premise that Ware couldn't get it done, so Lawson can't get it done.. ANd since I think that's what you're getting too, then you tell me how do you know Carpenter can get it done, and Lawson can't get it done?

We already have a natural linebacker on this team whos nearly the same size as Carpenter and his name is Kevin Burnett. So I see no reason to get another linebacker just like him, unless the boys are looking for something else in a linebacker.

I'm not comparing him to perfection. Hell I can compare him to Scott Fujita, Al Singleton, or Kevin Burnett, who lost containment plenty of times himself. All of these guys were much faster at getting off their blocks than Ware. It doesn't stop there either, Ware also got turned inside a lot more than Fujita, Singleton, and Burnett.

Can I know for certain that Bobby Carpenter will be a better pro than Lawson? No, but there are plenty of reasons why I believe that he will be a better run defender. Carpenter played for the number one run defense in the nation last year, primarily playing SLB and DE. After he went down, all his replacement at SLB could manage to do was pick up one assisted tackle.

While Carpenter is somewhat inconsistant in ability to shed blocks quickly, the only play that I can remember him being blown up on is the play where he got injured against Michigan. In addition being very solid at the point of attack, he has incredible closing burst. Within a ten yard window, I doubt that Manny Lawson has better closing speed than Bobby Carpenter.

Manny Lawson, while being a very strong individual was consistantly being blown off the ball by offensive lineman. Often times, he would be four of five yards downfield before he could disengage from his blocker. Of course, this didn't occur on every snap, but I can't remember Bobby Carpenter ever being driven off the ball in such a fashion.

I know that everyone here craves absolute proof, but short of actually giving everyone game film, this is the best I can do.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I'm not comparing him to perfection. Hell I can compare him to Scott Fujita, Al Singleton, or Kevin Burnett, who lost containment plenty of times himself. All of these guys were much faster at getting off their blocks than Ware. It doesn't stop there either, Ware also got turned inside a lot more than Fujita, Singleton, and Burnett.

Can I know for certain that Bobby Carpenter will be a better pro than Lawson? No, but there are plenty of reasons why I believe that he will be a better run defender. Carpenter played for the number one run defense in the nation last year, primarily playing SLB and DE. After he went down, all his replacement at SLB could manage to do was pick up one assisted tackle.

While Carpenter is somewhat inconsistant in ability to shed blocks quickly, the only play that I can remember him being blown up on is the play where he got injured against Michigan. In addition being very solid at the point of attack, he has incredible closing burst. Within a ten yard window, I doubt that Manny Lawson has better closing speed than Bobby Carpenter.

Manny Lawson, while being a very strong individual was consistantly being blown off the ball by offensive lineman. Often times, he would be four of five yards downfield before he could disengage from his blocker. Of course, this didn't occur on every snap, but I can't remember Bobby Carpenter ever being driven off the ball in such a fashion.

I know that everyone here craves absolute proof, but short of actually giving everyone game film, this is the best I can do.

And I would have to think that at this stage of their developement there is no comparison between the two when it comes to pass coverage.

I think many are "in-love" with the sack potential of Lawson. But playing a SOLB isn't going to afford him the pass rush opportunities of a Ware.

And big Bill isn't a "blitzing" coach. You're mostly going to see 3 or 4 guys. And when we go into the "nickel", 4-2-5 those two defensive ends will most likely be Ellis and Ware. You put Canty & Spears in at DT and you've got a nice pass-rushing front four. Don't forget Ratliff either. I liked the pass rush ability that kid brought to the table.

Carpenter has the ability (I think) to be a 3-down linebacker. I don't see that ability in Lawson at the moment.

 

[MiStar]

I would like to see us start to use a 3-3 nickel like the steelers use, with Roy playing the Polamalu position.

 

[junk]

We already have a natural linebacker on this team whos nearly the same size as Carpenter and his name is Kevin Burnett. So I see no reason to get another linebacker just like him, unless the boys are looking for something else in a linebacker.

Burnett isn't really the same size as Carpenter. Carpenter has almost 20 pounds on him.

Look at their builds, they are much different. Burnett is a converted safety who rarely rushed the passer in college. Carpenter played with his hand on the ground for a large portion of his senior year. Burnett was projected as a weak side backer and Carpenter as a strong side backer. Apples and oranges really.

Burnett hasn't exactly prove much at this point either.

 

[DLCassidy]

I don't think it's impossible at all. If he's there at 18 and is the player we want and a trade down can't be worked out, take him.

Ok not impossible. But IMO disapointing. I have no problem with Carpenter as the first pick. But show me anyone's mock or rankings that show him as a top 20 pick. Linebackers tend to slide a bit on draft day unless they have elite pass rushing ability. NE is a team that needs a LB as much or more than us and it's possible they could take him at 21. But if not he could slide to 29 to the Jets. Lawson is worth the 18th pick because he has the upside. I just want us to get an impact guy at 18 or move down and get an extra pick.

 

[DLCassidy]

I agree with that too.

But the fewer mistakes overall the better. And there is no doubt in my mind that someone that has played the position as much as Carpenter will make far fewer than someone like Lawson or any of the other convertered DE's.

Maybe in the short run. But the NFL is about making big plays too- sacks, forced fumbles, picks. I'll take the 4.4 guy over the 4.7 guy on that score.

 

[Justis]

converting DE to OLB is a time tested tradition. I'd say the best example now is Adalius Thomas. It's a little naive to think just because Carpenter has the title "linebacker" that he's any more of a finished product. He's still a rookie, and in fact he did most of his work in OSU as a pass rusher who often put his hand on the ground. Lawson has a lot of experience in coverage, and IMO is a far more suitable player for our system.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Maybe in the short run. But the NFL is about making big plays too- sacks, forced fumbles, picks. I'll take the 4.4 guy over the 4.7 guy on that score.

Hey, I like speed too.

BUT I've got to look at "mental abililty" and "instincts" also.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

converting DE to OLB is a time tested tradition. I'd say the best example now is Adalius Thomas. It's a little naive to think just because Carpenter has the title "linebacker" that he's any more of a finished product. He's still a rookie, and in fact he did most of his work in OSU as a pass rusher who often put his hand on the ground. Lawson has a lot of experience in coverage, and IMO is a far more suitable player for our system.

Would I be "hurt" if we selected Lawson?

Absolutely not! I think he's a great prospect. Just maybe not the best prospect for our situation but if he was chosen I would hope he turns out to be defensive rookie of the year.

 

[Chief]

Something else to consider is 2007.

I think there's a good chance that this will be Parcells' last year.

The new coach may want to use a 4-3, so if Dallas is seriously considering choosing a LB with its first pick this year, it needs to be someone who can play OLB in either scheme. That kinda looks like Carpenter to me.

I think Ware can be a very good RDE in a 4-3. If I'm not mistaken, he lined up there a few times last year in a 3-point stance. He's already heavier than Jason Taylor.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Something else to consider is 2007.

I think there's a good chance that this will be Parcells' last year.

The new coach may want to use a 4-3, so if Dallas is seriously considering choosing a LB with its first pick this year, it needs to be someone who can play OLB in either scheme. That kinda looks like Carpenter to me.

I think Ware can be a very good RDE in a 4-3. If I'm not mistaken, he lined up there a few times last year in a 3-point stance. He's already heavier than Jason Taylor.

Brilliant observation Chief. But we've come to expect that from you.

That is a very good possibility that when Purcells goes the 3-4 goes with it.

And yes Ware was the RDE quite often in the 4-2-5 nickel defense.

 

[jterrell]

I'm not comparing him to perfection. Hell I can compare him to Scott Fujita, Al Singleton, or Kevin Burnett, who lost containment plenty of times himself. All of these guys were much faster at getting off their blocks than Ware. It doesn't stop there either, Ware also got turned inside a lot more than Fujita, Singleton, and Burnett.

Can I know for certain that Bobby Carpenter will be a better pro than Lawson? No, but there are plenty of reasons why I believe that he will be a better run defender. Carpenter played for the number one run defense in the nation last year, primarily playing SLB and DE. After he went down, all his replacement at SLB could manage to do was pick up one assisted tackle.

While Carpenter is somewhat inconsistant in ability to shed blocks quickly, the only play that I can remember him being blown up on is the play where he got injured against Michigan. In addition being very solid at the point of attack, he has incredible closing burst. Within a ten yard window, I doubt that Manny Lawson has better closing speed than Bobby Carpenter.

Manny Lawson, while being a very strong individual was consistantly being blown off the ball by offensive lineman. Often times, he would be four of five yards downfield before he could disengage from his blocker. Of course, this didn't occur on every snap, but I can't remember Bobby Carpenter ever being driven off the ball in such a fashion.

I know that everyone here craves absolute proof, but short of actually giving everyone game film, this is the best I can do.

Bro, come on, that is flimsy at best and completely inaccurate in spots.

Ware was far better than Singleton, Burnett or Fujita and thats why its very probable NONE of those 3 start this year for us.

The position they play is a different one and they were often not asked to take on tight ends. Ware was asked to do so regularly.

As for getting off blocks please show us video evidence of this great exclamation you are making. Otherwise its pointless to mention. Making authoritative arguments based on your limited viewing of players with minimal exposure borders on reaching.

Dallas seldom gave Ware any rest at all. They didn't feel they had another player on the roster who could fill his role.

Thats exactly why drafting a second guy with some pass rushing skills make sense.

Fujita, ironically, is a good athlete but is also extremely stiff and angular. Thats not my opinion merely mind you, but the scouts inc negatives.

Ware was actually quite good last year against the run. Yes, he got gashed repeatedly against KC and gave up a huge play against Denver but those are top 5 OLs. He was far from the only person they abused.

Ware proved he had the ability to do everything. He can cover, play the run and rush the passer. He needs to get better at all 3 but the number of folks who can do all 3 is very small and he is amongst the elite who can.

 

[rexrobinson]

I've been looking at the list of defensive ends available for the draft that could be converted to a 3-4 backer...

Manny Lawson
Kamerion Wimbley
Mark Anderson
Darryl Tapp
Jeremy Mincey

And quite truthfully I don't see one of them that would make a good "strongside" OLB in the 3-4.

I could not disagree more!

The fact that Strongside and Weakside are terms that are irrealavent in today's NFL due to motion is not the only glaring mistake here. How many times did we see D. Ware move opposite of the tight end in motion to make sure he was a weakside OLB? Is anyone forgetting that the so called "weakside" also normally has the best OT on the team? I know why its called weak and strong so dont bother to point that out. The fact remains that motion offense offsets where the weak and strong side is.

Converting tweener DEs to OLBs has been a well established move for a couple of reasons. Strength and Speed. Having a strong AND fast person with the appropriate size and height is exactly what you need from a 3-4 OLB and history proves the best proto-types have been the tweener DEs.

Lawson ran a 4.43.. that is faster than any tight end he will be covering. He is 6-5 and taller than most has an amazing vertical leap that directly shows hit explosion off the snap. Saying he wont be good in coverage based off of ZERO information is ludacris especially when he has done it for 2 years and did it well. He has played OLB for 2 years, and he has an INT as a DE his senior year...this guy is good, this guy is smart as well he is an engineering major due to graduate.

I think some people are just reaching for straws on this topic and specualting off of made up statistics and ignoring the very REAL stats that have been posted.