Let's talk fairly about Jeff Heath

[G2]

What’s your definition of “very good”?

I see that and think someone is talking about a top 12ish safety.

First you don't start unless you're a good player, not in the NFL. As a safety he made a lot of solid plays. Again, 3rd in team tackles is significant. He's not an All Pro. But he's not a liability. It's funny. No one complained all season until the defense got smoked against LA. When the front 7 can't make any stops and allow multiple RBs to get to the safeties you will have guys missing plays, getting beat and worn out.

 

[JBS]

I think if we are being fair without exaggeration


He's trash

 

[Sydla]

Reserve players don't place 3rd in team tackles and they generally don't get turnovers.

You are putting way too much value in “tackles”.

He’s a decent S. That’s it.

 

[Sydla]

First you don't start unless you're a good player, not in the NFL. As a safety he made a lot of solid plays. Again, 3rd in team tackles is significant. He's not an All Pro. But he's not a liability. It's funny. No one complained all season until the defense got smoked against LA. When the front 7 can't make any stops and allow multiple RBs to get to the safeties you will have guys missing plays, getting beat and worn out.

Well for starters, that’s not true that people weren’t complaining about Heath until now.

Second, an average player can start in the NFL if he simply is the best a team has at that position.

He’s nothing more than a decent safety and certainly not a guy you look at and say we don’t need to even entertain upgrading that position.

When I see someone call a player “very good” those guys tend to be players I look at and don’t worry about improving for the next season.

Heath ain’t that type of player.

 

[xwalker]

I think most can agree Heath is not a top tier player, but outside that, opinions seem to range from being a solid starter to being terrible and some even suggest he may be the worst safety in the NFL.

We can fairly look at some flaws - sometimes he can take a bad angle to the ball carrier or receiver, and sometimes he fails to wrap up, and he isn't a big playmaker.

On the other hand, he was the 3rd leading tackler on the Cowboys behind LVE and Jaylon Smith, and only 6 teams gave up fewer deep passes than the Cowboys did.

So where does that leave us? To me it leaves us with a player who isn't above being upgraded, but who doesn't necessarily have to be upgraded, especially if doing so would prohibit upgrading positions that have a more urgent need.

I know some will disagree, but my goal is to have a reasonable, considered discussion and not one that is based on emotion and past impressions from when Heath was younger.

1. Heath injured his wrist sometime before the last Giants game. Not sure if sprained or broken. It was obvious that he couldn't use it to tackle afterwards and he resorted to trying to just hit hard enough to knock ball carriers down without having to wrap up.

2. Safety seems to be the most misunderstood position by many fans/media. If a big gain happens, it's often the Safety that either makes the tackle or is in the camera shot when he can't get to the ball carrier; however, often that Safety didn't have responsibility for that player but managed to get over to at least attempt a tackle. Fans just see the Safety in the camera shot not making the tackle or making it after a big gain. Either way they blame the Safety regardless of what happened before the ball carrier got to Safety depth.

3. Heath seems better at FS to me. He played FS most of last season (Byron Jones actually played SS much of last season with Frazier replacing him when the Cowboys expected a run). This season Heath played SS with Woods at FS.

4. Obviously Heath is not Earl Thomas in his prime at FS and he's not Kam Chancellor in his prime at SS.

5. The combination of Heath and Woods is more of an issue than either Heath or Woods individually. Pair either one up with an elite NFL Safety and they would be fine as the team's 2nd Safety. Woods will be more experienced next season which would improve both of them if they remain as the starters.

 

[OmerV]

I don’t think he’s worse than Frazier. I think he’s the worst starter in our secondary. I think Woods is a better player and has a much higher ceiling. I don’t see the progression with Heath. He’s the same player now that he was when he got here.

I strongly disagree with the last 2 sentences. Heath's rookie year he was supposed to just be depth and special teams, but because of injuries he was thrust into a starting role, as an undrafted free agent, and he was horrible. At that time I cringed just seeing him near a play. Unfortunately I think a lot of fans never got that image out of their heads even though Heath is miles above where he was at that time. I honestly think some still judge him today based on never letting go of the rookie season memory. The reality is when he first came to the Cowboys there is no way he could have been the 3rd leading tackler on the team, nor is there any way he could have contributed to a secondary being among the best in the NFL at preventing deep passes.

 

[OmerV]

1. Heath injured his wrist sometime before the last Giants game. Not sure if sprained or broken. It was obvious that he couldn't use it to tackle afterwards and he resorted to trying to just hit hard enough to knock ball carriers down without having to wrap up.

2. Safety seems to be the most misunderstood position by many fans/media. If a big gain happens, it's often the Safety that either makes the tackle or is in the camera shot when he can't get to the ball carrier; however, often that Safety didn't have responsibility for that player but managed to get over to at least attempt a tackle. Fans just see the Safety in the camera shot not making the tackle or making it after a big gain. Either way they blame the Safety regardless of what happened before the ball carrier got to Safety depth.

3. Heath seems better at FS to me. He played FS most of last season (Byron Jones actually played SS much of last season with Frazier replacing him when the Cowboys expected a run). This season Heath played SS with Woods at FS.

4. Obviously Heath is not Earl Thomas in his prime at FS and he's not Kam Chancellor in his prime at SS.

5. The combination of Heath and Woods is more of an issue than either Heath or Woods individually. Pair either one up with an elite NFL Safety and they would be fine as the team's 2nd Safety. Woods will be more experienced next season which would improve both of them if they remain as the starters.

Very good and fair comments. Your second point I think is something that needs to be understood by those who simply call him trash or among the worst players in the NFL. There is a reason the position is called "safety". He's the added layer of help when those primarily responsible for a runner or receiver don't make the play, so it's natural that he comes into play after a good run or a reception is already made.

 

[G2]

1. Heath injured his wrist sometime before the last Giants game. Not sure if sprained or broken. It was obvious that he couldn't use it to tackle afterwards and he resorted to trying to just hit hard enough to knock ball carriers down without having to wrap up.

2. Safety seems to be the most misunderstood position by many fans/media. If a big gain happens, it's often the Safety that either makes the tackle or is in the camera shot when he can't get to the ball carrier; however, often that Safety didn't have responsibility for that player but managed to get over to at least attempt a tackle. Fans just see the Safety in the camera shot not making the tackle or making it after a big gain. Either way they blame the Safety regardless of what happened before the ball carrier got to Safety depth.

3. Heath seems better at FS to me. He played FS most of last season (Byron Jones actually played SS much of last season with Frazier replacing him when the Cowboys expected a run). This season Heath played SS with Woods at FS.

4. Obviously Heath is not Earl Thomas in his prime at FS and he's not Kam Chancellor in his prime at SS.

5. The combination of Heath and Woods is more of an issue than either Heath or Woods individually. Pair either one up with an elite NFL Safety and they would be fine as the team's 2nd Safety. Woods will be more experienced next season which would improve both of them if they remain as the starters.

Same page.

 

[ghst187]

What’s to talk about, he’s not good. Special teamer playing a starting S role.

 

[Boyz4Lyfe33]

He is not a starter period.. Why we refuse to acknowledge this is baffling. I cant think of a single starting safety that I would take Heath over. He is a ST stud and backup and thats fine. But im tired of looking at him.

 

[Sydla]

This isn’t that hard.

Heath is not a guy that you head into the offseason and tell yourself that you don’t need to explore upgrading his position.

He’s an average safety in this league.

 

[Ranching]

I think the same of him as I feel about Garrett, I just won't say it cuz I'm trying to turn over a new leaf in 2019.

 

[OmerV]

He is not a starter period.. Why we refuse to acknowledge this is baffling. I cant think of a single starting safety that I would take Heath over. He is a ST stud and backup and thats fine. But im tired of looking at him.

This seems to be the opposite of what I asked for when I wrote the thread. If you have some reason and logic to go with your comments that would be helpful, but without that it just comes across as an emotional reaction without thinking it through. For example, if, as noted in the OP, Heath is the 3rd leading tackler on the team, and the team is one of the best in the NFL against deep passes, how does that translate into him being as bad as you say? To say he is the worst starting safety in the NFL (or even close to it) and have it mean anything, there has to be some explanation for this.

 

[Sydla]

He’s not a Top Ten SS and not even a top 25ish overall safety.

That’s decent. Which I guess we can live with if you grab more edge rushers and get better DB play around him.

Or just upgrade him sounds a bit simpler.

 

[Sydla]

This seems to be the opposite of what I asked for when I wrote the thread. If you have some reason and logic to go with your comments that would be helpful, but without that it just comes across as an emotional reaction without thinking it through. For example, if, as noted in the OP, Heath is the 3rd leading tackler on the team, and the team is one of the best in the NFL against deep passes, how does that translate into him being as bad as you say? To say he is the worst starting safety in the NFL (or even close to it) and have it mean anything, there has to be some explanation for this.

People are going gaga over his tackle totals which I don’t think really means all that much in terms of his quality.

Guess who was third in tackles for the Giants? Curtis Riley. 4th in tackles for the Eagles? Rasul Douglas. Don’t fall for tackle totals. He played a position where you are going to get a high number of opportunities for tackles.

From 2014-2016 Barry Church was top three on the team in tackles. Certainly no one is suggesting he was a really good safety and many believed in order to get better as a defense we had to upgrade our S play.

So tackle totals don’t tell you a whole lot about how good Heath is or isn’t.

 

[phildadon86]

To sum it up, Jeff Heath is Bill Bates. A great guy, good teammate, and very good special teams guy.

But if he's starting, you're in trouble. As we clearly were. Time after time after time.

An upgrade isn't just possible, it's arguably the biggest need on the defense.

Heath's continued struggles and lack of improvement will put a lot of money in Earl Thomas' pocket.

I cant forget the angle he tried to take against one team and the WR made him look absolutely foolish. I think it may have been Detroit or Seattle.

 

[OmerV]

People are going gaga over his tackle totals which I don’t think really means all that much in terms of his quality.

Guess who was third in tackles for the Giants? Curtis Riley. 4th in tackles for the Eagles? Rasul Douglas. Don’t fall for tackle totals. He played a position where you are going to get a high number of opportunities for tackles.

From 2014-2016 Barry Church was top three on the team in tackles. Certainly no one is suggesting he was a really good safety and many believed in order to get better as a defense we had to upgrade our S play.

So tackle totals don’t tell you a whole lot about how good Heath is or isn’t.

Curtis Riley had a good year - a breakout year for him, and he still had 10 fewer tackles than Heath. Reading plays and making tackles absolutely is a big part of the position, but even so, I never said tackles were a stand alone stat.

Nevertheless, tackles was not the only point of discussion I laid out. I talked about tackles to support the run defense AND the fact the team was one of the best at preventing deep throws. Those two elements are really the core of the job in a nutshell, and if a player can do those things well he is at least an average to solid safety.

As for tackles not making him a "really good safety", as you discussed with the Church analogy, I don't think I ever suggested Heath was a "really good safety", or, again, that tackles was the only criteria. Essentially all I've really expressed is that he is at least a solid player, and therefore replacing him isn't a desperate, must have to the exclusion of other needs type of situation. I'm all for an upgrade, but I think there are other positions that have a more urgent need.

 

[OmerV]

I cant forget the angle he tried to take against one team and the WR made him look absolutely foolish. I think it may have been Detroit or Seattle.

I'm not sure if this is the one you are talking about, but there was the play with the receiver running down the sidelines, and Heath never came close to making the tackle, nor did he force the running to make a cut that might have bought time for others to come help with the tackle. That one looked pretty bad.

 

[phildadon86]

I'm not sure if this is the one you are talking about, but there was the play with the receiver running down the sidelines, and Heath never came close to making the tackle, nor did he force the running to make a cut that might have bought time for others to come help with the tackle. That one looked pretty bad.

Thats exactly the one.

 

[Runwildboys]

I think the same of him as I feel about Garrett, I just won't say it cuz I'm trying to turn over a new leaf in 2019.

I knew it. You love Heath too!