Losing to win

TellerMorrow34

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Nobody is saying the players should try to lose.

Keep mowing down those straw men though.

If they're not advocating that the players try to lose then who exactly would they be calling for to tank?

Are they hoping the coaches will instead go out on the field and intentionally lose?
 

TellerMorrow34

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You have to question whether a person recommending losing games on purpose has ever played teams sports above middle school.

They haven't or more likely then that they simply were not very good.

That's the only way a person would ever have the loser mentality of actually cheering, and hoping for, losses.
 

TellerMorrow34

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to be fair, i let some of my own "emotions" out. i'm a big boy. not as big as i used to be and with any luck, the shrinking will continue, but overall, i'm used to it. any time i put out a post more than a YEA or the like the same people come back with the same acronym. TL/DR.

i've long since given up to understand we live in an instant gratification society and headlines and twitter statements are all their phones can handle so i know when i post a "war and peace" type post it will get snickered at just because *that mindset* does that to ANY post they can't seem to fit into twitter.

comes with the territory and that's life. i'm ok with it.

Much like many other things in life twitter and such has bred an atmosphere of being completely lazy.
 

DallasEast

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This topic wouldn't even be discussed in an ideal world. Fans wanting a higher draft pick would be discouraged about the team winning but they wouldn't become contentious with other fans wanting to see their team win in every situation. They would bite their lip and wait-and-see whether the team loses any additional games to determine exactly where Dallas would be slotted during the draft.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Bull ....... they did not tank anything.
"Early in the 1997 season, Robinson's dreams of becoming a champion seemed to vanish when he hurt his back in the preseason. He finally returned in December, but six games later broke his foot in a home game against the Miami Heat, and ended up missing the rest of the regular season. As a result of the injury to Robinson and other key players (most notably Sean Elliott, who missed more than half the season), the Spurs finished the season with a dismal 20–62 record."

Read your post, look at the dates and think.

He came back from back injury and broke his foot when? Early December? The NBA regular season goes into May. That is ~24 weeks. Do you see anything in there about a complication? Are you familiar at all with how the Spurs operate?

Robinson and Elliott were shut down that year. Now you can say that he did it for their long term health and I won't disagree with you but winning that year was not his priority. When you put other ideals above winning then I think that is objectively tanking.
 

zrinkill

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Read your post, look at the dates and think.

He came back from back injury and broke his foot when? Early December? The NBA regular season goes into May. That is ~24 weeks. Do you see anything in there about a complication? Are you familiar at all with how the Spurs operate?

Robinson and Elliott were shut down that year. Now you can say that he did it for their long term health and I won't disagree with you but winning that year was not his priority. When you put other ideals above winning then I think that is objectively tanking.

Again Bull

He got injured on Dec 22 and the news outlets said it was an 8 - 10 week injury which would have put him back in at the first of March and the Playoffs started 3 weeks later.

The Myth of the Tanking Spurs
http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/articles/the-myth-of-the-tanking-spurs

The Spurs had terrible odds at getting Duncan, even after all that "tanking". The Spurs finished behind the Celtics and Grizzlies in losses. In most worlds the Celtics grab Duncan. In a few the Nuggets or Sixers get him. The Spurs got lucky though with only a 26% chance to get the first pick in the draft
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Again Bull

He got injured on Dec 22 and the news outlets said it was an 8 - 10 week injury which would have put him back in at the first of March and the Playoffs started 3 weeks later.

The Myth of the Tanking Spurs
http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/articles/the-myth-of-the-tanking-spurs

The Spurs had terrible odds at getting Duncan, even after all that "tanking". The Spurs finished behind the Celtics and Grizzlies in losses. In most worlds the Celtics grab Duncan. In a few the Nuggets or Sixers get him. The Spurs got lucky though with only a 26% chance to get the first pick in the draft

You even spell out a timeframe where he was scheduled to come back near a month before the season still nothing of a complication. Robinson was told not to come back because at the end of the season it was meaningless.

And that year was a rich college class headed by Duncan but highly regarded at least at that point recruits like Jacque Vaughn, Chauncey Billups, Keith Van Horn, and Tracy McGrady were also coming out. Of course they didn't plan on getting Duncan like Boston did but they leveraged their assets to take advantage of that draft. They did assure a top 5 pick with that bottom 3 finish.

I don't think that Popovich at any time told his guys to not play to win. They played that dragged out physical defense and half court game that slowed games way down and stayed in ball games. At the end of the year when Robinson and Elliott were ready to come back he still told them to stay home and keep rehabbing because helping us win games doesn't help this franchise. He kept the corpse of Dominique Wilkins and Cadillac Williams playing 35 minutes instead.

At this point I don't really care if you believe me when you see Popovich resting players and taking regular season games off regularly. The league fined him for not playing his best players when they were healthy. He now sends players home on the road so the league cannot force him to play them. Tanking regular season games is common place for the Spurs.

If you were a Spurs fan who followed the team your entire life you might have a better perspective for all your google **. Tough loss tonight.

PS I checked your veracity and the Spurs played their final regular season game on April 20 in 1997.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/1997_games.html

December 22nd was a Sunday. 8 weeks from that that day is February 16. 10 weeks is March 2.

March 2nd to the end of the season on April 20 also Sunday is precisely 7 more weeks or a total of 17 weeks from when the foot was first injured. See if you can google up something that explains the near two month gap.
 

jazzcat22

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13 words and you said it.

Now wouldnt that have been better for the OP to do?

BTW, I agree those hoping to lose are losers.

I spent more time looking at the girl you have as the avatar than I do reading,
Not sure how many words....2, oh wait, that's not the words....lol....
 

Clove

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Good topic by the way.
I grew up watching greatness, and I'm thankful for it. These last 20 years have been some of the worst years of my life as a Cowboys fan. The reason is, we've not had a SB type QB since Aikman. I think Romo is/was the best player in this franchise but he's still not, and wasn't the type of QB to take you all the way. But it's not just him.

The Coaching, outside of a washed up Parcells', has been some of the worst I've seen in Cowboys history. How do you win super bowls with bad coaching? Maybe Romo could have won, possibly, if he had better coaching. So I've not really been in a good mood for 2 decades, I just want a Super Bowl. And to me, if it means losing this year to get a potential super bowl contending QB and maybe even a coach, I'm all for tanking. We've lost for 20 years, I can give up one season to try and find a franchise type QB.

At some point, it's got to get done. Why not now? Anyone who thinks Romo is going to play full seasons is smoking something illegal. The guy WILL get injured, and even if he doesn't, this team is just not going to win a super bowl, it just isn't.

What will this past game have meant if we lost the rest? Nothing - What does this season mean if we win two more and miss the playoffs? Nothing Every time you have a middle of the road record, you end up with two losses. A lost season, and a mid round draft choice. Now it's obviously not guaranteed you're going to get a great player, but people who don't try, will definitely never succeed. So I don't care what type of fan this makes me, tanking is best for the future.
 

Beast_from_East

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Can we all just agree that both sides have a legitimate point?

A. Yes, professional athletes are not going to try to lose on purpose and neither are coaches, so its not logical to think they will.

B. Yes, it has been proven multiple times that sometimes it is more beneficial to lose to better your drafting position. The Spurs have been used as an example of being able to draft Tim Duncan when David Robinson got hurt. Being in the draft lottery and being able to draft Tim Duncan was far better than sneaking into the playoffs as the # 8 seed that year.

For NFL examples, there are many where draft position meant a hell of a lot. Here are some players who were drafted in the top 12 and the player drafted immediately after them. These are just a couple of examples and of course team needs factored into the players who were taken, but this at least gives you an idea that sometimes an extra win is not necessarily a good thing for teams in the top 12.

Andrew Luck / Robert Griffin
JJ Watt / Christin Ponder
Joe Haden / Rolando McClain
Aldon Smith / Jake Locker
Matt Ryan / Darren McFadden
Marshawn Lynch / Adam Carriker
Reggie Bush / Vince Young
 

jazzcat22

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The draft is 90% luck 90% of the time.....:laugh:

In 1990, Pat Summeral said it best. And is anyone going to argue with Pat? Lol.

On Thansgiving day, Cowboys playing the Commanders, and the Commanders a very good team at the time.
Emmitt's rookie year, just had a long TD run, sealed the game for the Cowboys.

Pat said after that TD
the Cowboys can build a very good team for a long time, if the get lucky in the draft with all the picks they still have coming. And that is just what the draft is, is luck
And John Madden agreed.

I have that game on video also.
 

TwoDeep3

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What special honor is in 6-10? 7-9? 8-8?

The goal of this game is to put trophies in trophy cases. Nothing else matters. Oh, we see posts where the writer sings praises to honor the idea behind giving it all. But in reality, what has the past seventeen plus years accomplished for this team? What can you point to in that time span and say, now there was something special?

You can do so in 5 distinct seasons throughout the history of this franchise. Years they won it all. You can even perhaps make a case for the years they arrived, but were beaten in the Super Bowl.

The Landry era offered up years upon decades of staying close to the top. Landry's own philosophy was to stay near the top and pop through every few years for the winner take all game.

But what has seventeen, going on eighteen years of frustration, losing for the most part, disappointment, and ultimately the franchise taking a step back from the teams that are respected because they can consistently win done for Dallas and its fans?

Does losing the rest of the games and getting a high draft choice assure a return to this? Of course not.

And even if Jerry Jones retired this afternoon, there is no guarantee, as so many have offered here in speculation, his son Stephen will be different.

So where does this team go to elevate to the stature of one of the best run franchises - footballwise, not stadium building, not owner enriching, not ticket sales - but to return to the days when this team was the standard other teams aspired to be?

It doesn't start with wasting a career of a guy who came from nowhere to be one of the best ever at his position. You see, Romo is heading into the sunset in the next few years. And there will always be the argument of his value and ability because he never closed the deal for a championship.

Now cooler heads will proffer his skill set wasn't enough to overcome the rest of the team being so-so. And they would be right.

But in that nugget lies the real problem here.

Romo is not what detractors think he is. But he will always be labeled so because of the ineptitude of the front office to actually make wise decisions and surround him with quality players.

We saw that last year. A surprising year when Romo was called on to lead, but not be the only guy under the Star to have a skill set that is exceptional.

And what does this franchise do? They ignore what they had and broke up the band. Because of their lust for someone else's running back, and playing money games with their home grown Star wide receiver.

So when we all stand back and look at the real era post Jimmy, and assign the label of architect to that collection of mediocrity, we have to ask why?

And that answer will always come back as EGO.

The point of this is simple. Another 8-8 MIGHT win the east. To do what then? Be ushered out of the play-offs with Cassel as the QB, or a wounded Romo making another valiant attempt at salvaging this season?

Deion talks about business decisions. I am not advocating losing on purpose. And the players would throw a fit and revolt if that were the case. But if this franchise truly wants to return to the top, it will take premium picks and a management change.

But premium picks to be sure. Because even a blind squirrel finds the nut sometimes.

So I suppose in all this rhetoric, I am saying it doesn't really matter, does it? Because even with the top pick in the draft, in a year - and not this year - where the best QB in a decade is coming out, there will still be the duo that leads this franchise who have twenty plus years of hanging with football people, but are truly not football people themselves, making the decisions. They will trade down and take obscure players whose upside - Quincy Carter - was painted in ten inch letters as slim, none and zilch. Because look at how shrewd we are at making deals.

Mediocrity has a new poster team in the NFL and that is our team. Stuck in the mire of Jonesville, becoming a mirror of the Commanders and other teams that see no sunrise of great times.

I have spent 55 years loving this team and following them. I have never been to this point before wherein my regard is lukewarm based on no hope for the future. And before you rail on me for this attitude, keep in mind, for most of you, I was as rabid a fan as anyone here for decades before you were born.

Go ahead Jerry. Have another press conference. Undercut your leadership by offhanded comments that call their skills into question. Go ahead and bring in character questionable guys who blacken the eye of this franchise and return us to the Gomer Jones era.

Go ahead Jerry, and dig in your spurs and take credit for this mess, all the while telling the world you are training Garrett. A guy that was a pretty mediocre OC and now a pretty mediocre head coach. Because this results is wrought by your hands, Mr. Jones.

In the big scheme of things, it is what it is. Stuck in the middle of the road. Not lousy. Not great. Not significant. Just a big bag of Jerry.

It was fate that screwed you, Romo. It dealt you crap and you took it like a man.
 
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