Losing to win

[kiheikiwi]

I've been trying to think how to articulate what a lot of people are trying to say without getting blasted for having a different opinion on this "tank" issue.
So, just my 2 cents worth. (Hope this doesn't get too long ). I, and I think most people would never want this team to quit or give up. The use of the "Tank" wording is misleading.
Do I think this team as it stands can go on a run and take the NFC East title - no I don't.
But that's due to injury, less talent than we all expected, scheming and yes coaching etc. Not due to players and coaches giving up, this aint the NBA 76ers !
In trying to be realistic, I look at it this way - and if my thought process is wrong, so be it. It is my opinion that this team MAY win one more game this year, if so, I'm OK with that. IF we do end up say, 5-11 (God, I just shuddered recalling the Campo days) I think the FO is better equipped to do a better job come draft time then back in those days. GB should beat us - better team, Jets - marginally better team. Bills - same thought. Skins - we win, maybe.
A top 10 draft pick should, I repeat should, yield a better talent then the 18 - 26 th range we have been picking at. Wasn't Tyron Smith a # 9 pick ? I'm not on the QB in the first round bandwagon - more of the let's grab better talent then we have been getting bandwagon. Don't get me wrong, we have been doing really well in the first round of drafts lately, and a big chunk of that is due to our defacto GM - McClay. But the higher the pick, the better talent is available to us in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th rounds. Instead of players our scouting department targets being picked before we are on the clock, in each round we would have a better talent available. And I'm all for that.
I don't get all the bashing going on right now, we are on this forum to voice and get different opinions - yet obviously due to how this season has unfolded everyone is lashing out. I myself have ranted on the DT position many times. Maybe right, maybe wrong - but that's why I come here, to express my views and listen to others differing views, then form my own opinion.

So, yes - the team cannot quit, but in my mind a realistic expectation this year is unfortunately 5-11. And a top 10 ish draft pick. And while being numb to the loss of another Romo season - and no, he doesn't have many more. I'm Ok with it now, and will be avidly watching the draft to see how the team I love improves itself and hopefully becomes the Panthers of next year ... bash away !

 

[iceberg]

I've been trying to think how to articulate what a lot of people are trying to say without getting blasted for having a different opinion on this "tank" issue.
So, just my 2 cents worth. (Hope this doesn't get too long ). I, and I think most people would never want this team to quit or give up. The use of the "Tank" wording is misleading.
Do I think this team as it stands can go on a run and take the NFC East title - no I don't.
But that's due to injury, less talent than we all expected, scheming and yes coaching etc. Not due to players and coaches giving up, this aint the NBA 76ers !
In trying to be realistic, I look at it this way - and if my thought process is wrong, so be it. It is my opinion that this team MAY win one more game this year, if so, I'm OK with that. IF we do end up say, 5-11 (God, I just shuddered recalling the Campo days) I think the FO is better equipped to do a better job come draft time then back in those days. GB should beat us - better team, Jets - marginally better team. Bills - same thought. Skins - we win, maybe.
A top 10 draft pick should, I repeat should, yield a better talent then the 18 - 26 th range we have been picking at. Wasn't Tyron Smith a # 9 pick ? I'm not on the QB in the first round bandwagon - more of the let's grab better talent then we have been getting bandwagon. Don't get me wrong, we have been doing really well in the first round of drafts lately, and a big chunk of that is due to our defacto GM - McClay. But the higher the pick, the better talent is available to us in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th rounds. Instead of players our scouting department targets being picked before we are on the clock, in each round we would have a better talent available. And I'm all for that.
I don't get all the bashing going on right now, we are on this forum to voice and get different opinions - yet obviously due to how this season has unfolded everyone is lashing out. I myself have ranted on the DT position many times. Maybe right, maybe wrong - but that's why I come here, to express my views and listen to others differing views, then form my own opinion.

So, yes - the team cannot quit, but in my mind a realistic expectation this year is unfortunately 5-11. And a top 10 ish draft pick. And while being numb to the loss of another Romo season - and no, he doesn't have many more. I'm Ok with it now, and will be avidly watching the draft to see how the team I love improves itself and hopefully becomes the Panthers of next year ... bash away !

dunno about others, but i see nothing wrong here. i think it got old quick when people were happy about winning and those in it for the draft got onto them for getting happy and costing said poster 2-3 spots in the draft.

should we just not find a way to win again great. i have no issue with that and we'll get a pick due to our performance.

HOPING we lose to get a better pick - kinda jacked up and strange to me, but ok.

HOPING we lose and bagging on those who find that strange or higher on this list, just butt-nugget stupid.

HOPING we tank - not as many here but likely a few suggesting it - and that's just redefining ignorance.

 

[bkeavs]

It's a utilitarian versus the romantic ethic.

The romantic cares about what is felt and intended at the time. They live in the now and right now they want to beat the team in front of them.

As opposed to the utilitarian that looks at broader time periods than the immediate and tries to anticipate using a deterministic system. Sciency stuff typically but there are other directives as well.

I personally can see the value in both ways of doing things particularly in sport. They aren't mutually exclusive but people sure set up camps anyway.

Great post. Totally agree

 

[Rockport]

so if the team loses the remaining games without anyone rooting for them to lose, whose the losers?

The players and coaches for sure. Not quite sure the full intentions of ownership.

 

[TheDude]

Even in that time you could often say more by saying less if you were good with words and getting to the point

He didnt have time to write a shorter piece. (B Pascal shoutout)

 

[black label]

taken from the banner thread, but i kinda wanted to call it out on it's own and address the topic itself, not the banner that many for valid reasons of their own, think this is in poor taste.

i'm not one who does (think it is in poor taste)

you see this mindset..."losing to win" i'll call it, has so many flaws that i can't help but think those doing it really have no idea what it takes to keep a team up and going and ensure that going into next year you don't do something you can't just "turn off". cause in this instance how do you turn off "losing to win" as a mindset? you can't. you've said it's OK now and people will run with it on their own terms beyond anything you can coach or control.

as for the banner in the forums calling them out, poking them with a stick, gleeful "revenge"? maybe. but how many times have we seen reality have to call out threads just to get people to stop ranting and raving in every thread possible, venting their own "anger" with every post? how many times has reality had to put a ENOUGH NEGATIVITY headline in the forums. how much "in poor taste" is it for people to come in here and do crap like that which *has* to be called out.

time and time again.

and even a zone created where they can rant and rave and be as negative as they wish - whatever makes them feel positive.

i'd say all those things have been done, many a dozen times by now. yet people still must "vent" to an overly annoying degree and in every post find a way to say something like "man, congrats on wittens 1000th catch!!! what an amazing accomplishment!!! surprised as hell he did it under garrett who can't coach!!! or - how jones found him who knows cause jones sucks! - and so on and so on.

how many threads have you seen drop to just that?

time and time again.

maybe it is in poor taste but there's only so much even "the good guys" can take and the high road, we'll get back to it later, i'm sure. but there are in fact times you just feel the need to butt-slap a child for acting like a child. always trying to go the "high road" just isn't possible or there never would have been a high road to always take. it would be the "only way".

now - if we did in fact lose out by trying, great. we get a good draft pick. historically what have we done with high draft picks? many of these people who want us to win out to get a higher draft pick will be happy with each loss and yet when the draft comes, start their "jones is gonna screw it up" postings. so why even root for a team, to lose, so you can ***** about the draft pick you got, only so we can go into the next year *****ing that we didn't take their pet cats and all those losses were for nothing because we didn't take THEIR favorite player on the board at the time.

time and time again.

so no. while i'd love to draft high that means a painful season and those are hard enough to get through even when losing due to all the stupid mistakes we make play in and play out. all those calling out to lose the rest of the games, i am curious, did they also go through 1-15? that was no fun but i kept wearing my jersey and i kept saying "one day" and the very next year i moved to dallas and bought my 1st NFL ticket to see the cowboys play the chargers and we started off that year with a win. felt fantastic.

the other day in going through old paperwork and things i thought i'd thrown out LONG ago - i found another ticket i bought for me and 2 friends to see the cowboys, still in irving at the time, play seattle. it was a pretty amazing game overall. what was so special about that game? well, other than sitting there with my friends?

oh yea, a rushing record by a man called emmitt. yea, that was so damn cool to see live and still having that ticket to the game? pretty special to me.

so i don't watch people paid millions to lose. i don't care if the season is over, i don't care if we'll lose a few spots in the draft and may cost whinerboys all over the world angst that they just lost 5% more of a chance to get their pet cat and i certainly don't care if someone is "offended" that there are those of us happy to see us win.

let me ask those who say TANK IT a question - how do you turn that off? you have just set a price on losing and placed a random draft pick somewhere in the future that today has ZERO value over having players play through adversity and "learning" to win when it's one of the most difficult things you can do?

how do you "next year" say OK NOW WE MEAN IT!!!! you've shown that you get hit and you fall down.

you don't get back up and try again. you wait until fictitious help comes along in the draft and next year will erase the bitter memories we're unfortunately creating this year? how do you tell kids who watch "oh, it's ok to lose if it helps you later" when the definition of "lose" is now welded to "ok"? regardless of the reason this would be YOUR reason, or belief, we'll somehow get the next great qb in the draft by just losing out. the team will come back next year going "gosh, i'm glad thats over with, we now have johnny football (not THAT one) here who will save the team!"

you are in fact teaching them and people who watch that you feel it's ok to lose in order to get help to win because you're simply incapable of doing it yourself. watching this team that's not far off, now is it? oh, except we're better than 1-15 already and stranger things have happened.

yes we may get blown out *if* some crazy season or reason 8-8 gets us in there. we sure *may*. but if we get there do we tank it to slide up 1 spot in the draft?

do we tank it and tell the team "sure, y'all suck and go ahead and lose so we can get some winners in here".

or do we tank it and then have parents watch kids go "hey i'm losing so i can get better later" in choices they make in their life.

how can it ever be possible to instill a losing mindset in a team and then turn around and expect them to later NOT want to tank things for their own reason.

would you want to play for a team who said "hey, we suck so lose"?

i damn sure don't want to watch one just for some oddball chance we MAY get a good qb in the draft who MAY be as good as romo one day (who didn't cost us a draft pick) or maybe hell, another clairborne is taken to upset so many cause they just suck. then that self-same group of "ok to lose" will be mad they went through a season of loss to get to a better pick only to not take who they felt we should, invalidating the entire premise of "losing to win" will be back in here *****ing about that.

time and time again.

losing won't guarantee a single thing except that we've accepted it. in this instance "we" isn't the general fan but the cowboys themselves. the day this team accepts losing is a path to winning well then what the hell is the point of even watching the game? so i'll end it by asking that - those who WANT us to lose out for a draft pick...

...you gonna still watch every single game? you gonna get happy when we fumble, throw in int, or get sacked and dance around for the other team or hate it? you gonna tell yourself as you watch that crap that it's ok - johnny football must be coming to save the day? (still not *that* one). you gonna get pissed when we do things like...i dunno...win?

are you really *that* ... "fan"?

if so more power to you and great. at least you're firm in your convictions and will stand by the team, even when they are not even trying or don't want to. you do that.

i think it sucks and i will +1 it when those people are called out and have no issue at all blowing the **** out of the bridge on the "high road" a few times to express how stupid i feel that line of thinking is.

their right to *****. my right to return fire.

time and time again.

 

[TonyS]

Just wanted to get in on this thread so I can say I was there when CZ completely went cray cray. Hi Mom!

No NFL team would play to lose. This entire discussion is pointless and shows how fans of the same team turn cannibalistic during tough times.

I choose to take the high road. I hatechy'all!

 

[zrinkill]

The Indianapolis Colts pre-Andrew Luck say, "Hello!"

Oh right .......I forgot about them and all those Superbowls and Division Championships they have won since then. How is Luck doing this year by the way?

 

[iceberg]

boy...

you sure told me. I had a fighting chance in all this til the Jr High LOL ended it in a drops microphone way.

 

[Beast_from_East]

You have to question whether a person recommending losing games on purpose has ever played teams sports above middle school.

I almost see those people as the ones that would steal from a blind beggar or sleep with a nearly unconscious drunk girl....if nobody would find out or prove it.

I know, an exaggeration...but seriously.... the idea of it just disgusts me.

It's so clearly spineless and goes completely against everything good (or whatever is remaining that's good) in team sports.

I know this was not directed at me, but I will answer for the group if I may that you might be describing.

These fans are not saying the players should not try to win, they have no contact with anybody in the organization or have any influence over the outcome of the games. They are simply saying that they as fans would prefer the team to lose since the playoffs are very unlikely.

How does this manifest itself? Probably by watching the game and not really sitting on the edge of your seat and when a bad play happens, they tell themselves that it is ok, this is for the best. I highly doubt they are jumping up and down and fist bumping everybody in the sports bar when McFadden fumbles.

And as far as the analogy to personally playing sports, its way off. A spectator cannot quit, by definition, only a person currently engaged in the activity can quit. A spectator can only change his emotions based on what he is observing, he has not control over the outcome of the game so there is nothing to quit. So fans cannot quit anything, they can only change their emotional reaction to the events they witness.

 

[Beast_from_East]

What posters on this forum think and write has no bearing on what the team will actually do. Posters can post about tanking the season or winning out, what does it matter. I doubt Garrett and the rest of the team come on here, read and do what the posters post. It's all opinions on an NFL Football Team's message board. That is what message boards are for, to express you opinion on your favorite football team and discuss amongst other team fans. You don't have to agree with what everyone posts and chose to disagree with them. It does not make you a better fan or a band wagoner. This place would be very boring and would probably die if every poster would post how great Jerry, Garrett and the Cowboys are, or how terrible they are.

I posted last night in the post game thread, that I was rooting for the Cowboys to win, just like I have for every game the past 45 years. But post game, I just didn't feel the excitement that I expected and have felt in the past. Perhaps it was the poor play, the terrible coaching or the fact that I don't see this team winning out. Whatever it was, I don't like the I hope that moving forward, Jerry sees it and remedies the coaching problem that exist.

Some people are delusional enough to actually think what is posted on a fan message board actually affects the outcome of games. If 10,000 users all post that the team should tank, does anybody really believe it would have any affect on the team at all? Likewise, if all 10,000 say the Packers are going to lose to us on Sunday, does anybody really think that would have any affect at all on the outcome of the game?

Its like I said last night in the post game thread, does anybody really believe that a fan watching Bailey line up for a game winning kick has any influence over that kick when he or she is watching it on TV in some cases 1000s of miles away from the stadium? It doesn't matter if that fan is yelling for it to be good or be bad, so how exactly can this fan "be a quitter".

I guess the bottom line is that no, the players are not going to quit or tank for draft picks, it is only the fans who are watching the games and adjusting their emotions accordingly to the events they are witnessing. So that fan cannot "quit on the team", all he or she can do is change how they feel if Bailey misses or makes that kick. If that kick is to win the SuperBowl, I imagine 100% of the fan base would be devastated with a loss. However, if that kick is to get to 4 wins on the season instead of 3, maybe the fan base is not that upset with a miss.

 

[PA Cowboy Fan]

I don't think anybody wants the team to purposely lose. That would be a whole other matter. The frustration comes in seeing the team actually do something that they hadn't been able to do on 7 other occasions. Why did it take so long? And the team didn't look that great doing it as far as the offense was concerned. But oh well. It's on to GB and we'll see what happens. The defense did look better so we'll see if they use the same approach with Rodgers.

 

[Beast_from_East]

Man, this board is falling apart. Cowboys fans attacking fellow Cowboys fans and it's a sad thing to see.

Yep, its pretty bad to see.............I truly believe that 99% of this board is die hard Cowboy fans. Why on Earth would they take the time and effort to make an account and, in come cases, have 1000s of posts over multiple years if they were not a fan of the team? Makes no dam sense to even think about it logically.

The difference is that fans see things differently. Some think Garrett is a clown and some think he is the next Tom Landry. Some think Romo is god-like and some think he is nothing but a choker. Some think you build a team by winning what could turn out to be meaningless games and some think you build a team through the draft if your current team is not good enough.

So there are many different opinions, but in the end we are all Cowboy fans and want what is best for the team, the issue is the disagreement over what is best.

But the insults being thrown around is going over the top. Like some poster just wrote that hoping for the team to lose for a better draft pick was the equivalent of sleeping with an unconscious women. Seriously? Hoping for a better draft pick is now the equivalent of sexual assault?

Like I said, it is getting way out of control around here.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No team has ever purposely tanked and was better off for it.

1997 Spurs tanked and it's payed off famously. They approach it as a development cycle and try to act accordingly sitting players on game nights, stashing players overseas, and draft day trades. Jimmy Johnson had a tendency to trade vets for draft picks early in his pro career.

Patriots use that type of thinking and I would not be surprised if they tanked once Brady needs to be replaced.

You never ever tell your players to not try. You build the esprit d'corps but you try to be smart about it. You still trade Herschel Walker for draft picks and you still tell David Robinson to not come back at the end of the season. You still trade your firsts for future picks in good years.

Jason Garrett doesn't operate like that but hopefully someone like Jerry or Stephen Jones is at least trying to take the long view.

 

[5Stars]

Hey, to be honest with all you Cowboys fans,,,I am going to go smoke some devils weed,...get crazy. Hop in my ride...and buy me a monkey.

Bet me...!

I wonder what other tricks the Cowboys have in this Circus?

 

[Beast_from_East]

You guys have a good night...................Beast is out of here for the night, nothing but insults being thrown around right now anyways so no point in even trying to have a discussion about anything.

I'm out............

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You guys have a good night...................Beast is out of here for the night, nothing but insults being thrown around right now anyways so no point in even trying to have a discussion about anything.

I'm out............

night man

 

[CATCH17]

taken from the banner thread, but i kinda wanted to call it out on it's own and address the topic itself, not the banner that many for valid reasons of their own, think this is in poor taste.

i'm not one who does (think it is in poor taste)

you see this mindset..."losing to win" i'll call it, has so many flaws that i can't help but think those doing it really have no idea what it takes to keep a team up and going and ensure that going into next year you don't do something you can't just "turn off". cause in this instance how do you turn off "losing to win" as a mindset? you can't. you've said it's OK now and people will run with it on their own terms beyond anything you can coach or control.

as for the banner in the forums calling them out, poking them with a stick, gleeful "revenge"? maybe. but how many times have we seen reality have to call out threads just to get people to stop ranting and raving in every thread possible, venting their own "anger" with every post? how many times has reality had to put a ENOUGH NEGATIVITY headline in the forums. how much "in poor taste" is it for people to come in here and do crap like that which *has* to be called out.

time and time again.

and even a zone created where they can rant and rave and be as negative as they wish - whatever makes them feel positive.

i'd say all those things have been done, many a dozen times by now. yet people still must "vent" to an overly annoying degree and in every post find a way to say something like "man, congrats on wittens 1000th catch!!! what an amazing accomplishment!!! surprised as hell he did it under garrett who can't coach!!! or - how jones found him who knows cause jones sucks! - and so on and so on.

how many threads have you seen drop to just that?

time and time again.

maybe it is in poor taste but there's only so much even "the good guys" can take and the high road, we'll get back to it later, i'm sure. but there are in fact times you just feel the need to butt-slap a child for acting like a child. always trying to go the "high road" just isn't possible or there never would have been a high road to always take. it would be the "only way".

now - if we did in fact lose out by trying, great. we get a good draft pick. historically what have we done with high draft picks? many of these people who want us to win out to get a higher draft pick will be happy with each loss and yet when the draft comes, start their "jones is gonna screw it up" postings. so why even root for a team, to lose, so you can ***** about the draft pick you got, only so we can go into the next year *****ing that we didn't take their pet cats and all those losses were for nothing because we didn't take THEIR favorite player on the board at the time.

time and time again.

so no. while i'd love to draft high that means a painful season and those are hard enough to get through even when losing due to all the stupid mistakes we make play in and play out. all those calling out to lose the rest of the games, i am curious, did they also go through 1-15? that was no fun but i kept wearing my jersey and i kept saying "one day" and the very next year i moved to dallas and bought my 1st NFL ticket to see the cowboys play the chargers and we started off that year with a win. felt fantastic.

the other day in going through old paperwork and things i thought i'd thrown out LONG ago - i found another ticket i bought for me and 2 friends to see the cowboys, still in irving at the time, play seattle. it was a pretty amazing game overall. what was so special about that game? well, other than sitting there with my friends?

oh yea, a rushing record by a man called emmitt. yea, that was so damn cool to see live and still having that ticket to the game? pretty special to me.

so i don't watch people paid millions to lose. i don't care if the season is over, i don't care if we'll lose a few spots in the draft and may cost whinerboys all over the world angst that they just lost 5% more of a chance to get their pet cat and i certainly don't care if someone is "offended" that there are those of us happy to see us win.

let me ask those who say TANK IT a question - how do you turn that off? you have just set a price on losing and placed a random draft pick somewhere in the future that today has ZERO value over having players play through adversity and "learning" to win when it's one of the most difficult things you can do?

how do you "next year" say OK NOW WE MEAN IT!!!! you've shown that you get hit and you fall down.

you don't get back up and try again. you wait until fictitious help comes along in the draft and next year will erase the bitter memories we're unfortunately creating this year? how do you tell kids who watch "oh, it's ok to lose if it helps you later" when the definition of "lose" is now welded to "ok"? regardless of the reason this would be YOUR reason, or belief, we'll somehow get the next great qb in the draft by just losing out. the team will come back next year going "gosh, i'm glad thats over with, we now have johnny football (not THAT one) here who will save the team!"

you are in fact teaching them and people who watch that you feel it's ok to lose in order to get help to win because you're simply incapable of doing it yourself. watching this team that's not far off, now is it? oh, except we're better than 1-15 already and stranger things have happened.

yes we may get blown out *if* some crazy season or reason 8-8 gets us in there. we sure *may*. but if we get there do we tank it to slide up 1 spot in the draft?

do we tank it and tell the team "sure, y'all suck and go ahead and lose so we can get some winners in here".

or do we tank it and then have parents watch kids go "hey i'm losing so i can get better later" in choices they make in their life.

how can it ever be possible to instill a losing mindset in a team and then turn around and expect them to later NOT want to tank things for their own reason.

would you want to play for a team who said "hey, we suck so lose"?

i damn sure don't want to watch one just for some oddball chance we MAY get a good qb in the draft who MAY be as good as romo one day (who didn't cost us a draft pick) or maybe hell, another clairborne is taken to upset so many cause they just suck. then that self-same group of "ok to lose" will be mad they went through a season of loss to get to a better pick only to not take who they felt we should, invalidating the entire premise of "losing to win" will be back in here *****ing about that.

time and time again.

losing won't guarantee a single thing except that we've accepted it. in this instance "we" isn't the general fan but the cowboys themselves. the day this team accepts losing is a path to winning well then what the hell is the point of even watching the game? so i'll end it by asking that - those who WANT us to lose out for a draft pick...

...you gonna still watch every single game? you gonna get happy when we fumble, throw in int, or get sacked and dance around for the other team or hate it? you gonna tell yourself as you watch that crap that it's ok - johnny football must be coming to save the day? (still not *that* one). you gonna get pissed when we do things like...i dunno...win?

are you really *that* ... "fan"?

if so more power to you and great. at least you're firm in your convictions and will stand by the team, even when they are not even trying or don't want to. you do that.

i think it sucks and i will +1 it when those people are called out and have no issue at all blowing the **** out of the bridge on the "high road" a few times to express how stupid i feel that line of thinking is.

their right to *****. my right to return fire.

time and time again.

Team tank checking in.


You know what gets a team up? A start of a new season.


it would be one thing if we had Romo but every game we win from here on out does nothing unless we win them all and I got some bad he's for you guys. Aaron Rodgers is going to light us up.


Give me the draft pick.


Also, the players need to play hard. But put some young guys out there.

The time to win was a month ago. Everyone playing hard for their job now is an absolute joke and they should be judged on what ruined our season.

We'll never fix the problems on this team unless we crash and burn and Jerry has no choice but to get a real coach.

 

[zrinkill]

1997 Spurs tanked and it's payed off famously. They approach it as a development cycle and try to act accordingly sitting players on game nights, stashing players overseas, and draft day trades.

Bull ....... they did not tank anything.
"Early in the 1997 season, Robinson's dreams of becoming a champion seemed to vanish when he hurt his back in the preseason. He finally returned in December, but six games later broke his foot in a home game against the Miami Heat, and ended up missing the rest of the regular season. As a result of the injury to Robinson and other key players (most notably Sean Elliott, who missed more than half the season), the Spurs finished the season with a dismal 20–62 record."

 

[tyke1doe]

Oh right .......I forgot about them and all those Superbowls and Division Championships they have won since then. How is Luck doing this year by the way?

He's injured.
But last time I checked, he led his team to three straight playoff appearance, including a comeback win against Kansas City and an AFC Championship appearance last year.