LSU-Alabama an old-fashioned showdown

[MC KAos]

and on top of that, the color guy kept bringing up guys that are gone! who cares

"bama sure could use terrance cody here!!" WHO GIVES A **** ABOUT THAT!!! im sure they could have used joe namath too!

 

[Cythim]

Either you think that all undefeated deserve an equal shot or not.

I think it's relevant. If you don't want to answer, nobody is going to force you to. Just curious as to your stance on the matter.

Are you going to get back to the original point or stick to this tangent that you think you can win some sort of debate on? When only two teams can be selected for the championship game and more than two teams are undefeated some sort of rank structure is necessary to make the decision. The computer polls try to use logic instead of popularity but their results are just as questionable as the human polls.

The chief problem in trying to find a champion is the fact that you have 120+ teams and only 13-14 games to determine who it is. A tournament will change how it is done but it will not make it more fair. Step one is reducing the number of teams in the FBS. Step two is regulating scheduling so there are more meaningful games being played. These two things won't happen, so changing the formula is like polishing a turd.

 

[Rogah]

So, as someone who doesn't keep up with exactly how the computer rankings work, how far will the loser fall? Say Bama loses a close game... Common sense says they shouldn't fall far losing to the #1 team in the country.

If they fall very far, it'll be a shame. They are clearly the two best teams in the country IMO. Thought it might be fun to see the loser destroy Stanford, for instance. (Or can that not happen because of the weird way the Rose Bowl works?)

I doubt they will fall terribly fall in the people polls, but they certainly will fall below Okie State and Stanford. Maybe even below Boise State too, but not much lower. The computer polls will probably be similar.

 

[MC KAos]

i think they fall behind OU, if not this week, eventually

 

[Rogah]

Therefore, one of the top 2 teams in the country will lose a chance at the national title tomorrow because of the BCS system that will punish them for losing to the other team.

Neither Alabama nor LSU have any right to complain since they each controlled their own destiny regarding making the BCS Championship. Now Alabama has lost so if they are left out they have only themselves to blame because they lost.

The real raw deal are the FBS teams looking at going undefeated and still not getting a chance at the championship.

 

[Cythim]

So, as someone who doesn't keep up with exactly how the computer rankings work, how far will the loser fall? Say Bama loses a close game... Common sense says they shouldn't fall far losing to the #1 team in the country.

If they fall very far, it'll be a shame. They are clearly the two best teams in the country IMO. Thought it might be fun to see the loser destroy Stanford, for instance. (Or can that not happen because of the weird way the Rose Bowl works?)

These are the projected match-ups and they look to be holding (minus the Big 10 champion, who knows about that one).

BCS BOWLS

Rose Bowl Game presented by VIZIO
January 2, 2012 Pasadena, CA, 5:00 pm ESPN
Payout: $36 million
Big Ten No. 1 vs. Pac-12 No. 1
Projection: Wisconsin vs. Oregon
Rationale: The call - Wisconsin wins out; Ohio State loses to Michigan; Penn State loses to Ohio State and/or Nebraska and Wisconsin. Oregon is likely here win or lose against Stanford.

Tostitos Fiesta Bowl
January 2, 2012 Glendale, AZ, 8:30 pm ESPN
Big 12 No. 1 vs. BCS
Projection: Oklahoma State vs. Stanford
Rationale: The Oregon/Stanford loser will end up here to face the Oklahoma/Oklahoma State loser. West Virginia and Boise State could end up getting the if Stanford goes to the BCS Championship.

Allstate Sugar Bowl
January 3, 2012 New Orleans, LA, 8:30 pm ESPN
SEC No. 1 vs. BCS at-large
Projection: Alabama vs. Boise State
Rationale: The Alabama/LSU loser will be here. Boise State will finish No. 4 in the BCS behind Alabama/LSU winner, Oklahoma, and the Alabama/LSU loser. If Stanford plays in the national championship, the Oklahoma/Oklahoma State loser could end up here.

Discover Orange Bowl
January 4, 2012 Miami Gardens, FL, 8:00 pm ESPN
ACC No. 1 vs. BCS at-large
Projection: Clemson vs. West Virginia
Rationale: Clemson and West Virginia, despite recent losses, are still the best teams in their respective conferences. They'll matchup in the Orange Bowl, but Boise State could end up here instead of the Mountaineers.

BCS Championship
January 9, 2012 New Orleans, LA, 9:00 pm ESPN
BCS No. 1 vs. BCS No. 2
Projection: LSU vs. Oklahoma
Rationale: The LSU/Alabama winner will be here, while OU will finish up as the best of the one-loss teams, getting the nod over an unbeaten Boise State

http://cfn.scout.com/2/557866.html

 

[Rogah]

Obviously a tournament is the best solution but how many teams do you let in? Do you use the polls to select? I'm watching the 7th and 9th ranked teams play and I wouldn't want either in a tournament for the title. Do you have a selection committee choose? Only conference champs? LSU or Alabama would still be left out.

IMHO, they should take the same BCS formula currently used and take the top 8. Have 4 games around mid-December, the Football Final Four on New Year's Day (anyone but me remember when New Year's Day used to have real and meaningful college games? Playing on New Year's Day used to be a major achievement, now it's barely a consolation prize) and then the national championship a week later.

There will always be the #9 team complaining but complaints from the #9 team will fall on deaf ears. And there is absolutely no way whatsoever a team goes undefeated and still fails to make the tournament.

 

[Rogah]

Losing to LSU would not mean that Alabama is a worse team than either Stanford or OKST. And LSU losing to Alabama would not mean that LSU is worse than Stanford or OKST.

Of course, there's nothing that says that either Alabama or LSU (coming into today) were any better than Okie State or Stanford in the first place. Heck, almost every computer has Okie State at #1 before today. The only reason both Alabama and LSU were higher than Okie State is because of their carryover from last season.

 

[Cythim]

IMHO, they should take the same BCS formula currently used and take the top 8. Have 4 games around mid-December, the Football Final Four on New Year's Day (anyone but me remember when New Year's Day used to have real and meaningful college games? Playing on New Year's Day used to be a major achievement, now it's barely a consolation prize) and then the national championship a week later.

There will always be the #9 team complaining but complaints from the #9 team will fall on deaf ears. And there is absolutely no way whatsoever a team goes undefeated and still fails to make the tournament.

What about conference champions? Big East and Big 10 champions could easily fall out of the top 8, do they miss an invite? The #9 team will likely be a runner-up in a major conference, and there is much more room for politicking to seal it. Would a two loss Oregon (assuming losses to unbeaten LSU and Stanford) fall behind a one loss Oklahoma who loses to Tech? The #9-#15 teams will be screaming that they were shafted instead of just Boise State and TCU/Houston.

 

[Rogah]

What about conference champions?

What about 'em?

Big East and Big 10 champions could easily fall out of the top 8, do they miss an invite?

Yup. Sorry but if you have 2 losses, you really can't complain too much if you get left out.

The #9 team will likely be a runner-up in a major conference, and there is much more room for politicking to seal it.

Well, you can't politick a computer and while the human polls are subject to such things, that's no different than they way things are now.

Would a two loss Oregon (assuming losses to unbeaten LSU and Stanford) fall behind a one loss Oklahoma who loses to Tech?

Well considering 1-loss Oregon is already behind 1-loss Oklahoma, I think it's safe to say that if Oregon loses again, they'll stay behind Oklahoma.

The #9-#15 teams will be screaming that they were shafted instead of just Boise State and TCU/Houston.

But no one is going to care about them screaming. It will make for interesting fodder for a couple days but ultimately who cares?

See, you're proving my point. You're arguing about the #9 team (or lower) getting shafted, but not only is the #9 team almost guaranteed to have at least 1 loss, but in all likelihood they will have 2 losses. My system will absolutely 100% guarantee an undefeated team from a BCS conference gets in, plus it will go a long way towards establishing that:

1) Any undefeated team (from any conference) gets in, and
2) Any 1-loss BCS conference team has a darn decent chance

Yes, I know it does not 100% guarantee those things but it's a whole lot better than the current situation where an undefeated team from a major conference stands to get left out.

 

[Rogah]

These are the projected match-ups and they look to be holding (minus the Big 10 champion, who knows about that one).

Heh. It's easy for projections to "hold up" after just one weekend. Let's see where they are in December.

 

[MC KAos]

im all in on the top 8 idea, hell id be all in on a plus one with the top 4 bcs teams, at least that way the little guys like boise state and TCU (last year) would get a shot to prove everyone wrong on the field

 

[Cowboys&LakersFan]

This is why I hate college football. A great team like Alabama loses only one game and now it's damn near impossible for them to win the National Championship. College Football needs playoffs badly! Why do people love the NFL so much? Because of the parody of the NFL. You have so many teams who just sneak into the playoffs and go all the way. Packers last season, Cardinals in 2009, Giants in 2008. Another problem is how bad the defenses are. I was watching the Texas/Texas Tech game and I was simply amazed how bad Texas Tech's defense was especially their run defense. The Longhorns ran on them at will basically. Guarantee you won't see that in the NFL. The scores are ridiculous almost like basketball scores where you have teams consistently scoring in the 40's, 50's, 60's, and at times even the 70's. You don't even score that much in Madden!

NFL Football >>>>> College Football.

 

[Cythim]

What about 'em?
Yup. Sorry but if you have 2 losses, you really can't complain too much if you get left out.
Well, you can't politick a computer and while the human polls are subject to such things, that's no different than they way things are now.
Well considering 1-loss Oregon is already behind 1-loss Oklahoma, I think it's safe to say that if Oregon loses again, they'll stay behind Oklahoma.
But no one is going to care about them screaming. It will make for interesting fodder for a couple days but ultimately who cares?

See, you're proving my point. You're arguing about the #9 team (or lower) getting shafted, but not only is the #9 team almost guaranteed to have at least 1 loss, but in all likelihood they will have 2 losses. My system will absolutely 100% guarantee an undefeated team from a BCS conference gets in, plus it will go a long way towards establishing that:

1) Any undefeated team (from any conference) gets in, and
2) Any 1-loss BCS conference team has a darn decent chance

Yes, I know it does not 100% guarantee those things but it's a whole lot better than the current situation where an undefeated team from a major conference stands to get left out.

I'm not proving your point, why do people around here love to say that when it is not true? It seems obvious to me that you did not even bother to look at the final BCS standings over the last few years before floating this terrible idea out there. Here are the final standings for 2010:

1. Auburn 13-0
2. Oregon 12-0
3. TCU 12-0
4. Stanford 11-1
5. Wisconsin 11-1
6. Ohio State 11-1
7. Oklahoma 11-2
8. Arkansas 10-2
9. Michigan State 11-1
10. Boise State 11-1
11. LSU 10-2
12. Missouri 10-2
13. Virginia Tech 10-2
14. Oklahoma State 10-2
15. Nevada 12-1

What makes Oklahoma and Arkansas better than 3 teams with only 1 loss, or a 2-loss ACC Champion? #9-#15 have a legitimate claim on the #7 and #8 seeds.

Would you like to go back to 2008 when undefeated Boise State was ranked 9th in the final BCS poll? How about 2007 when undefeated Hawaii (the only undefeated) finished 10th and there were only 2 teams with 1 loss?

Your simplistic formula does not work and only constrains competition. If Boise State knows they only need to be undefeated to get into the top 8 and a championship tournament they will likely stop offering to play tough schools. The regular season matchups like FSU vs OU or Bama vs Penn St will stop because that is a vital win needed to finish the season with no more than 1 loss.

 

[MC KAos]

I'm not proving your point, why do people around here love to say that when it is not true? It seems obvious to me that you did not even bother to look at the final BCS standings over the last few years before floating this terrible idea out there. Here are the final standings for 2010:

1. Auburn 13-0
2. Oregon 12-0
3. TCU 12-0
4. Stanford 11-1
5. Wisconsin 11-1
6. Ohio State 11-1
7. Oklahoma 11-2
8. Arkansas 10-2
9. Michigan State 11-1
10. Boise State 11-1
11. LSU 10-2
12. Missouri 10-2
13. Virginia Tech 10-2
14. Oklahoma State 10-2
15. Nevada 12-1

What makes Oklahoma and Arkansas better than 3 teams with only 1 loss, or a 2-loss ACC Champion? #9-#15 have a legitimate claim on the #7 and #8 seeds.

Would you like to go back to 2008 when undefeated Boise State was ranked 9th in the final BCS poll? How about 2007 when undefeated Hawaii (the only undefeated) finished 10th and there were only 2 teams with 1 loss?

Your simplistic formula does not work and only constrains competition. If Boise State knows they only need to be undefeated to get into the top 8 and a championship tournament they will likely stop offering to play tough schools. The regular season matchups like FSU vs OU or Bama vs Penn St will stop because that is a vital win needed to finish the season with no more than 1 loss.

its not about who gets left out, who cares if a two loss team gets in over one loss teams. its the fact that pretty much any team in the country can go undefeated and have a shot at a national title, at least that way, you wont have an undefeated TCU, Boise, Utah, Auburn, etc not getting a shot at the title after doing their part, winning every game

 

[Cythim]

its not about who gets left out, who cares if a two loss team gets in over one loss teams. its the fact that pretty much any team in the country can go undefeated and have a shot at a national title, at least that way, you wont have an undefeated TCU, Boise, Utah, Auburn, etc not getting a shot at the title after doing their part, winning every game

It will be about who gets left out, that is what it is always about. When the pool of eligible teams is nearly twice as big as the number of spots available it will be about who gets left out. When three teams in a major conference each lose 1 game (like Michigan St, Wisconsin, and Ohio St last year) which one gets left out? There is not room for three teams from the same conference in an 8 team bracket. The polls are the problem with the BCS so using them to pick an 8 team bracket is just as bad as using them to pick a 2 team bracket.

 

[Hoofbite]

Are you going to get back to the original point or stick to this tangent that you think you can win some sort of debate on? When only two teams can be selected for the championship game and more than two teams are undefeated some sort of rank structure is necessary to make the decision. The computer polls try to use logic instead of popularity but their results are just as questionable as the human polls.

The chief problem in trying to find a champion is the fact that you have 120+ teams and only 13-14 games to determine who it is. A tournament will change how it is done but it will not make it more fair. Step one is reducing the number of teams in the FBS. Step two is regulating scheduling so there are more meaningful games being played. These two things won't happen, so changing the formula is like polishing a turd.

There is no debate. Just opinion.

Firing off topicality arguments isn't going to go anywhere.

Of course there has to be a ranking but the fact that 1-loss and 2-loss teams are ranked higher than some teams with fewer wins means there isn't some strict win/loss code involved.

It's all opinion of who is best and if #1 and #2 are better than #3 and #4 going into a game, the outcome shouldn't change it.

 

[Cythim]

There is no debate. Just opinion.

Firing off topicality arguments isn't going to go anywhere.

Of course there has to be a ranking but the fact that 1-loss and 2-loss teams are ranked higher than some teams with fewer wins means there isn't some strict win/loss code involved.

It's all opinion of who is best and if #1 and #2 are better than #3 and #4 going into a game, the outcome shouldn't change it.

You are trying to use logic and opinion at the same time. Opinions can change based on weekly outcome. I may have thought LSU and Alabama were the two best teams before last night, but based on what I saw my opinion can change. Is Bama really the second best team in the nation when they can only score 6 points against LSU?

 

[Rogah]

I'm not proving your point, why do people around here love to say that when it is not true?

Because you are proving my point, even though you just don't seem to realize it.

It seems obvious to me that you did not even bother to look at the final BCS standings over the last few years before floating this terrible idea out there.

Actually I did so feel free to take your foot out of your mouth. That's why I used terms like "almost guarantees" instead of "fully guarantees"

What makes Oklahoma and Arkansas better than 3 teams with only 1 loss, or a 2-loss ACC Champion? #9-#15 have a legitimate claim on the #7 and #8 seeds.

See, here's how your proving my point: instead of arguing about TCU, you're arguing about Michigan State. TCU was a legit contender for the championship and they got left out. A lot of people think they could have been the best in the nation but they never got the chance to prove it on the field. Michigan State had a fine season but you can't find a single person who thought they were legitimate championship contenders. Of course, the fact that they got spanked by Alabama helps prove that point.

Would you like to go back to 2008 when undefeated Boise State was ranked 9th in the final BCS poll? How about 2007 when undefeated Hawaii (the only undefeated) finished 10th and there were only 2 teams with 1 loss?

Actually the one change I would consider is any undefeated team is guaranteed to get into the final 8 because I hate the idea that a team can go undefeated and still not have a chance at a title.

Your simplistic formula does not work and only constrains competition. If Boise State knows they only need to be undefeated to get into the top 8 and a championship tournament they will likely stop offering to play tough schools. The regular season matchups like FSU vs OU or Bama vs Penn St will stop because that is a vital win needed to finish the season with no more than 1 loss.

This is a silly statement. My system encourages such matchups because these days, one non-conference loss almost completely destroys your chances of making the BCS championship game. Under my formula, if a great team suffers one single loss to another great team, chances are they're still going to be in the playoffs.

Look, you have to realize that no system is perfect. Basketball sends 68 teams to their tournament, and you still hear whining and moaning from the "bubble" teams that were left out. As far as football is concerned, I'd rather hear that whining coming from a 2-loss VA Tech team who gets left out at #9 than an undefeated Stanford who gets left out at #3.

 

[Rogah]

It will be about who gets left out, that is what it is always about.

I agree with this 100% and this is what I mean when I say you're proving my point. Because by shifting the "who gets left out" argument from #3 to #9, you're shifting it to a team who just cannot make a legitimate claim that they're the best in the nation if they can't crack the top 8.

When the pool of eligible teams is nearly twice as big as the number of spots available it will be about who gets left out. When three teams in a major conference each lose 1 game (like Michigan St, Wisconsin, and Ohio St last year) which one gets left out? There is not room for three teams from the same conference in an 8 team bracket. The polls are the problem with the BCS so using them to pick an 8 team bracket is just as bad as using them to pick a 2 team bracket.

It's nowhere near as bad using the polls to pick 8 teams as compared to 2 teams. The fact that you're arguing about a perceived injustice being done to Michigan State proves the point. No one on the planet considers the 2010 Spartans to be legit championship contenders so no one outside Lansing, Michigan, would be upset with a system that left them out.