Manny Lawson overrated?

[Rack]

If you pick Manny you are going more on potential then proven play. If you go with Carpenter its the opposite. carpenter will help us more RIGHT now- Manny will probably helpus more LATER. That is the main reason I think that we go for Carpenter. Manny will not give us the great stuff probably for a couple of years; Carpenter will give us real good stuff right now.

I disagree. I think Carpenter will be a better LB now, and probably a better LB later as well. He doesn't get NEARLY as much credit as he deserves for his pass rush ability, and he's obviously the better run defender (obvious to those lacking MannyLove).


Lawson, right now, is nothing more then a speed rusher. That's not a bad thing. It means he has something to start with that you can't teach... Speed. If he develops some PASS rush moves it'll make him even more dangerous. But I still don't think he'll ever develop the instincts that Carpenter has and I doubt he'll ever be a great run defender.


It's the same thing going back to a few years ago when I wanted us to take Terrell Suggs (I didn't have SuggsyLove though. I was happy with Newman, and would of been happy with a couple of others as well. Plus, Suggs was 1b on my list. 1a was Leftwich).


All the sudden people got off the Suggs bandwagon and started calling him a future "Bust" just cuz he only ran a 4.9. To me that just proved he was a true PASS rusher, cuz he obviously wasn't beating offensive linemen with nothing but pure speed. Also, Suggs got his sacks playing both sides, and he had a good inside move. And he had the strength and size to hold up vs the run as a 3-4 WOLB or SOLB.

Now, I'm very happy with Terence Newman. Extremely happy with his play. But can you imagine Ware on the weak side and Suggs on the strong side?


I don't think Carpenter is as good a pass rusher as Suggs, but he's still very good.

 

[dwmyers]

I don't think he is overrated, I think he has a large spread of ratings because of lot of the things that have moved him up charts are based on late minute athletics and a very good Senior Bowl. He also is, as DEs go, small. Right now his range seems to be middle of first round to 3rd or so.. his spread of ratings isn't nearly as large as, say, QB Reggie McNeil (whose spread of ratings goes from 3rd round to undraftable) but it does create differences of opinion as to where he should be drafted (or whether he even should be drafted).

David.

 

[Dough Boy]

And he had the strength and size to hold up vs the run as a 3-4 WOLB or SOLB.
.

Here is Suggs draft profile. At the time he came out, there were concerns about his run stopping ability.

BIO: Junior-eligible who impacted the program as a true freshman. Totaled 73 tackles with 31 1/2 tackles for loss and 24 sacks last season, also accumulating one interception and defending three passes. Garnered multiple honors in 2002 including All-America and All-Conference selections, winning the inaugural Ted Hendrick's Award, the Lombardi Award and the Bronko Nagurski Trophy. Also named Pac-10 Defensive Player of the Year after setting the NCAA record for sacks in a season and leading the nation in tackles for loss. Junior totals were 42-18-10 after 48-16-10 his first year in college. Holds both the single season and career records for sacks and tackles for loss at Arizona State. Recently worked out poorly for scouts running a pair of forty’s in the 4.8 range and completing 19 repetitions on the bench. Working out again on April 18th. Weighed in around the 260-pound mark in the postseason, though his playing weight may be a little less.

POSITIVES: Explosive defender who controls the game from a variety of spots on the field. Quick off the snap out of a three point stance, smooth changing his direction and immediately alters his angle of attack, pursuing and catching ball carriers from the backside. Displays a quick inside move, easily adjusts off the first block and relentless chasing the ball carrier. Deceptively strong in his upper body, redirects and uses his hands to stay off blocks. Fast in a straight line or laterally and keeps his pads low to the ground, playing with leverage. Effective off the line of scrimmage in pass coverage and productive playing in space. Gives good effort and can be a one-man wrecking crew.


NEGATIVES: Lacks bulk, size and has difficulty getting off blocks once engaged with bigger lineman. Seemingly takes wide angles at times hoping to avoid lineman altogether.

ANALYSIS: Tremendous force who continually alters the momentum of the game with his abilities to make plays behind the line of scrimmage. Consistency to make plays in the backfield almost rivals his willingness to defend the run. Would be productive stood up over tackle in a three-four scheme or equally effective as a defensive end positioned next to a wide bodied tackle. Anyway you cut it should make his presence known early into his rookie season.

The bold underline under analysis = WOLB. Same as Lawson. No one knows how Manny will be at stopping the run in a 3-4, because he's never played. Anyone that says they know with an absolute certainty is blowing smoke. You have to project his ability to make plays in the running game.

I personally like Lawson first and then Carpenter. I think Lawson has more upside than Bobby. I agree with you on one point, Bobby is a better pure LB today. I do think you are over evaluating his pass rush skills though. He is clearly the third best pass rusher when it comes to he, Lawson and Wimbley if you don't have (CarpenterLove).

Most of what is underlined in the Suggs analysis would apply to Lawson also. Would you not agree? Although Lawson did more reps on the bench.

 

[rexrobinson]

I love how people who have never seen Manny Lawson play football talk in absolutles about him. "Workout Warrior"????? The guy had a very good season stat wise and put up phenom numbers at the combine, and now he is a Workout Warrior?

Rack - "He would NOT be effective as a SOLB next season, and maybe never."

First off, how in the WORLD do you know this? The guy is tall and fast, he is as fast or faster than most NFL running backs and tight ends. He also weighs as much or more NOW than most running backs. That means he has the tools to cover and stop a running back. It is obvious he can rush the passer.

When in the heck did it become common knowledge that Manny Lawson is bad at run stopping? It has become an easily regergatated garbage comment now based off of nothing, especially not Manny Lawsons actual stats.

I love how people make stuff up in order to justify who they want to draft. The funniest part is, we have zero influence over the draft and yet people STILL post baseless data pulled out of thin air in a vain effort to convince people who sit on their couch on draft day that they are right.

We all have opinons and I RESPECT everyones opinion, I loathe made up statisics and opinionated absolutles.

 

[Vintage]

Here is Suggs draft profile. At the time he came out, there were concerns about his run stopping ability.

BIO: Junior-eligible who impacted the program as a true freshman. Totaled 73 tackles with 31 1/2 tackles for loss and 24 sacks last season, also accumulating one interception and defending three passes. Garnered multiple honors in 2002 including All-America and All-Conference selections, winning the inaugural Ted Hendrick's Award, the Lombardi Award and the Bronko Nagurski Trophy. Also named Pac-10 Defensive Player of the Year after setting the NCAA record for sacks in a season and leading the nation in tackles for loss. Junior totals were 42-18-10 after 48-16-10 his first year in college. Holds both the single season and career records for sacks and tackles for loss at Arizona State. Recently worked out poorly for scouts running a pair of forty’s in the 4.8 range and completing 19 repetitions on the bench. Working out again on April 18th. Weighed in around the 260-pound mark in the postseason, though his playing weight may be a little less.

POSITIVES: Explosive defender who controls the game from a variety of spots on the field. Quick off the snap out of a three point stance, smooth changing his direction and immediately alters his angle of attack, pursuing and catching ball carriers from the backside. Displays a quick inside move, easily adjusts off the first block and relentless chasing the ball carrier. Deceptively strong in his upper body, redirects and uses his hands to stay off blocks. Fast in a straight line or laterally and keeps his pads low to the ground, playing with leverage. Effective off the line of scrimmage in pass coverage and productive playing in space. Gives good effort and can be a one-man wrecking crew.


NEGATIVES: Lacks bulk, size and has difficulty getting off blocks once engaged with bigger lineman. Seemingly takes wide angles at times hoping to avoid lineman altogether.

ANALYSIS: Tremendous force who continually alters the momentum of the game with his abilities to make plays behind the line of scrimmage. Consistency to make plays in the backfield almost rivals his willingness to defend the run. Would be productive stood up over tackle in a three-four scheme or equally effective as a defensive end positioned next to a wide bodied tackle. Anyway you cut it should make his presence known early into his rookie season.

The bold underline under analysis = WOLB. Same as Lawson. No one knows how Manny will be at stopping the run in a 3-4, because he's never played. Anyone that says they know with an absolute certainty is blowing smoke. You have to project his ability to make plays in the running game.

I personally like Lawson first and then Carpenter. I think Lawson has more upside than Bobby. I agree with you on one point, Bobby is a better pure LB today. I do think you are over evaluating his pass rush skills though. He is clearly the third best pass rusher when it comes to he, Lawson and Wimbley if you don't have (CarpenterLove).

Most of what is underlined in the Suggs analysis would apply to Lawson also. Would you not agree? Although Lawson did more reps on the bench.

Suggs played WOLB.

Rack isn't saying Lawson cannot play WOLB.

Read his posts.

 

[theogt]

When in the heck did it become common knowledge that Manny Lawson is bad at run stopping? It has become an easily regergatated garbage comment now based off of nothing, especially not Manny Lawsons actual stats.

There has been criticism about his run-stopping ability. However, that criticism has been directed at him being 4-3 DE. I wouldn't want him as a 4-3 DE. He's a 3rd+ round pick as a 4-3 DE. Rack, and others, don't seem to realize the difference between criticizing his ability as a 4-3 DE and criticizing his ability as a 3-4 OLB. There has been little, if any, criticism against Lawson regarding his run-stopping ability as a 3-4 OLB. Fortunately, Ireland, et. al., understand this.

 

[31smackdown]

Couple of things..

On Suggs... He has been basically been used as a third down, passing situation WOLB since he was drafted.. I'm guessing support against the run isn't his strongest attribute.

On Lawson/Carpenter.. Carpenter did have 8 sacks last year, which is pretty good, and he seems to be a lot more versatile and built for the strong side. The thing I don't like about Lawson's rush moves is that he does this fake spin inside and then goes back to the outside, turning his back to the play.. if he does that in pro's, the OT will completely take him out of the play every time. He also seems to play pretty high.

On Lawson/Canty.. The key difference I see here is that Canty is an absolute anchor against the run.. the guy does not get pushed off the LOS almost ever.. I'm consistantly impressed with Canty's use of leverage, especially at his size. I don't see that Lawson plays with that type of leverage. As far as leg size goes.. they both could use some help and Canty did break his right tibia in 2002.

I wouldn't be completely upset with Lawson, but I guess I just don't see him as the natural SOLB that the Cowboys are looking for

 

[Vintage]

There has been criticism about his run-stopping ability. However, that criticism has been directed at him being 4-3 DE. I wouldn't want him as a 4-3 DE. He's a 3rd+ round pick as a 4-3 DE. Rack, and others, don't seem to realize the difference between criticizing his ability as a 4-3 DE and criticizing his ability as a 3-4 OLB. There has been little, if any, criticism against Lawson regarding his run-stopping ability as a 3-4 OLB. Fortunately, Ireland, et. al., understand this.

And you know there is little criticism regarding his run stopping ability as a 3-4 OLB how?

 

[theogt]

And you know there is little criticism regarding his run stopping ability as a 3-4 OLB how?

I read.

 

[Vintage]

I read.

LOL.

__

 

[Vintage]

What are you going to do when we pass on your boy for Carpenter?

 

[Dough Boy]

Suggs played WOLB.

Rack isn't saying Lawson cannot play WOLB.

Read his posts.

Maybe you sould read his post. Rack said Suggs could play SOLB. So if Suggs can, and he and Lawson are similar in there profiles, why can't Lawson?

And he had the strength and size to hold up vs the run as a 3-4 WOLB or SOLB.

 

[Derinyar]

There has been criticism about his run-stopping ability. However, that criticism has been directed at him being 4-3 DE. I wouldn't want him as a 4-3 DE. He's a 3rd+ round pick as a 4-3 DE. Rack, and others, don't seem to realize the difference between criticizing his ability as a 4-3 DE and criticizing his ability as a 3-4 OLB. There has been little, if any, criticism against Lawson regarding his run-stopping ability as a 3-4 OLB. Fortunately, Ireland, et. al., understand this.

Theres no criticism of his 3-4 OLB play for one simple reason, has he ever played much 3-4 OLB? Probably not, as not many college teams run the 3-4. So right now I think Wimberly and Lawson are very much projection picks. Carpenter is more of a known. Out of those three Carpenter is probably the only one that would be an immedate starter.

But our goal shouldn't necessarily be to draft a starter so much as to get someone who we think is going to be the best player next year and the year after.

 

[Vintage]

Maybe you sould read his post. Rack said Suggs could play SOLB. So if Suggs can, and he and Lawson are similar in there profiles, why can't Lawson?

OK. I will try this again.

Suggs played WOLB.

Rack isn't saying Lawson cannot play WOLB.

 

[Clove]

If we are wanting Lawson over Carpenter based on pure speed (since that's the only reason we want Lawson) then why not look at Thomas Howard who runs faster than Lawson, and has height, and the same weight as Lawson, and is a natural Linebacker.

But if you're looking for a pass rusher, who has great leverage, and happens to be a great linebacker, than look no futher than Carpenter.

I was the biggest Lawson supporter around, as a matter of fact, I think I was the first to mention drafting him way back in December. But after taking off the blind fold, and listening to both arguments, and reading everything possible, Carpenter is what this Defense needs.

 

[speedkilz88]

Lawson has a lot more going for him than speed and Howard has a lot more negatives than Lawson which is why he is doubtful to be going in the first.

 

[theogt]

What are you going to do when we pass on your boy for Carpenter?

Never said I didn't like Carpenter. I've just said that I like Lawson more. I wouldn't be upset about it at all; in fact, I've often said that I hope we, AT LEAST, get Lawson, Carpenter, or Wimbley. I'll be happy with any of the three.

 

[Dough Boy]

OK. I will try this again.

Suggs played WOLB.

Rack isn't saying Lawson cannot play WOLB.

I'll try this again. Rack said that Suggs could play SOLB. If Suggs could play it, why can't Lawson.

FYI, Why are you speaking for Rack. His post doesn't need to be interpeted. He said Suggs could play SOLB. I've read both draft profiles of Suggs and Lawson and I've seen both play.

You answer me this. If Suggs and Lawson are comparable, why can one play SOLB and the other can not?

 

[theogt]

Theres no criticism of his 3-4 OLB play for one simple reason, has he ever played much 3-4 OLB? Probably not, as not many college teams run the 3-4. So right now I think Wimberly and Lawson are very much projection picks. Carpenter is more of a known. Out of those three Carpenter is probably the only one that would be an immedate starter.

But our goal shouldn't necessarily be to draft a starter so much as to get someone who we think is going to be the best player next year and the year after.

Sure he has little experience at run-stopping as an OLB. However, he has had tons of experience against the run. He was a DE for Pete's sake. Every single down he faced a blocker. Given his unbelievable speed and agility I can only "project" that he would be great in space. Check out the videos of him when he happens to be in space. Looks incredible.

 

[Vintage]

I'll try this again. Rack said that Suggs could play SOLB. If Suggs could play it, why can't Lawson.

FYI, Why are you speaking for Rack. His post doesn't need to be interpeted. He said Suggs could play SOLB. I've read both draft profiles of Suggs and Lawson and I've seen both play.

You answer me this. If Suggs and Lawson are comparable, why can one play SOLB and the other can not?

Suggs played WOLB. He PLAYED WOLB.

I don't care if Rack says Suggs could play SOLB. Because that hasn't been proven. Suggs HAS PROVEN he can play WOLB.

Suggs played WOLB.

Rack never said Lawson couldn't play WOLB. Here. Ever. Any thread.