Manny Lawson overrated?

[Derinyar]

Sure he has little experience at run-stopping as an OLB. However, he has had tons of experience against the run. He was a DE for Pete's sake. Every single down he faced a blocker. Given his unbelievable speed and agility I can only "project" that he would be great in space. Check out the videos of him when he happens to be in space. Looks incredible.

Stopping the run as a DE and stopping the run as a LB are two different skill sets. Saying he can do A and he can do B are two different arguments.

 

[theogt]

Stopping the run as a DE and stopping the run as a LB are two different skill sets. Saying he can do A and he can do B are two different arguments.

To an extent, yes. I addressed this in the 5th and 6th sentences in my post.

 

[speedkilz88]

Suggs played WOLB. He PLAYED WOLB.

I don't care if Rack says Suggs could play SOLB. Because that hasn't been proven. Suggs HAS PROVEN he can play WOLB.

Suggs played WOLB.

Rack never said Lawson couldn't play WOLB. Here. Ever. Any thread.

So who was playing SOLB opposite Suggs? Was it Peter Boulware by chance? A guy in the same exact mold as Lawson and Wimbley. A guy both have been compared too?

 

[Dough Boy]

Suggs played WOLB. He PLAYED WOLB.

I don't care if Rack says Suggs could play SOLB. Because that hasn't been proven. Suggs HAS PROVEN he can play WOLB.

Suggs played WOLB.

Rack never said Lawson couldn't play WOLB. Here. Ever. Any thread.

you never answered the question.

 

[Vintage]

you never answered the question.

Because the question is poor.

Suggs doesn't play SOLB. He plays WOLB. So how can I answer that?

 

[Vintage]

So who was playing SOLB opposite Suggs? Was it Peter Boulware by chance? A guy in the same exact mold as Lawson and Wimbley. A guy both have been compared too?

Except, Boulware has proven he can play SOLB, take on blockers, shed blockers, cover, jam, pass rush throughout his career.

And secondly, its a comparison; doesn't mean its accurate. People also compared Harold Minor to MJ too.

 

[rexrobinson]

The fact is, saying Bobby Carpenter is going to make great OLB in our system is just as far a reach as saying Manny Lawson would make a great OLB in our system. They have similar season stats, they both played on a team with a superstar opposite of them and they both have good tangible numbers to look at.

We do not know untill it happens.

I am just tired of reading the threads of absolutes. The ones that say someone flat out cannot do this or that and have no idea what they are talking about or cite some made up statistic or regurgitate some opinion they read in another post and from then on treat it as an official statistic.

The reasons I want to draft Manny Lawson over Bobby Carpenter are as follows:

He is taller (6'5 some show 6'6)
He is faster (4.3 is a BIG difference than 4.7)
He is stronger (he scored a 72 on Pat Kirwans scale http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/9326200
He has the frame to add weight and he knows this. (he is in Arizona now at a sports traning facility working out and adding bulk, he was at 245 last report I read)
He has a degree in engineering and that shows me the ability/discipline to do his tape work, understand schemes and be prepared.
He has near identical senior stats as a DE as Carpenter does as an OLB.
He is a special teams monster waiting to happen as well.

Am I wrong, I dunno, are you Carpenter bandwagoners wrong? again I dunno this is all opinion and please treat it as so. Absolutes have nothing to do with pre-draft dissucssions by people whose only decesion on draft day is to figure out what dip to have with thier fritos.

 

[Vintage]

The fact is, saying Bobby Carpenter is going to make great OLB in our system is just as far a reach as saying Manny Lawson would make a great OLB in our system. They have similar season stats, they both played on a team with a superstar opposite of them and they both have good tangible numbers to look at.

We do not know untill it happens.

I am just tired of reading the threads of absolutes. The ones that say someone flat out cannot do this or that and have no idea what they are talking about or cite some made up statistic or regurgitate some opinion they read in another post and from then on treat it as an official statistic.

The reasons I want to draft Manny Lawson over Bobby Carpenter are as follows:

He is taller (6'5 some show 6'6)
He is faster (4.3 is a BIG difference than 4.7)
He is stronger (he scored a 72 on Pat Kirwans scale http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/9326200
He has the frame to add weight and he knows this. (he is in Arizona now at a sports traning facility working out and adding bulk, he was at 245 last report I read)
He has a degree in engineering and that shows me the ability/discipline to do his tape work, understand schemes and be prepared.
He has near identical senior stats as a DE as Carpenter does as an OLB.
He is a special teams monster waiting to happen as well.

Am I wrong, I dunno, are you Carpenter bandwagoners wrong? again I dunno this is all opinion and please treat it as so. Absolutes have nothing to do with pre-draft dissucssions by people whose only decesion on draft day is to figure out what dip to have with thier fritos.

Fritos suck.

Its all about the Coronas and Buffalo Wild Wings.

 

[superpunk]

Buffalo Wild Wings....what an establishment!

Sports Bar mecca.

 

[rexrobinson]

Fritos suck.

Its all about the Coronas and Buffalo Wild Wings.

LOL now were talking

 

[Vintage]

I usually go for spicy wings...

But a couple of days ago, I tried some Parmesan Garlic ones...

Wow. Amazingness.

I highly recommend them.

 

[Rack]

Here is Suggs draft profile. At the time he came out, there were concerns about his run stopping ability.

BIO: Junior-eligible who impacted the program as a true freshman. Totaled 73 tackles with 31 1/2 tackles for loss and 24 sacks last season, also accumulating one interception and defending three passes. Garnered multiple honors in 2002 including All-America and All-Conference selections, winning the inaugural Ted Hendrick's Award, the Lombardi Award and the Bronko Nagurski Trophy. Also named Pac-10 Defensive Player of the Year after setting the NCAA record for sacks in a season and leading the nation in tackles for loss. Junior totals were 42-18-10 after 48-16-10 his first year in college. Holds both the single season and career records for sacks and tackles for loss at Arizona State. Recently worked out poorly for scouts running a pair of forty’s in the 4.8 range and completing 19 repetitions on the bench. Working out again on April 18th. Weighed in around the 260-pound mark in the postseason, though his playing weight may be a little less.

POSITIVES: Explosive defender who controls the game from a variety of spots on the field. Quick off the snap out of a three point stance, smooth changing his direction and immediately alters his angle of attack, pursuing and catching ball carriers from the backside. Displays a quick inside move, easily adjusts off the first block and relentless chasing the ball carrier. Deceptively strong in his upper body, redirects and uses his hands to stay off blocks. Fast in a straight line or laterally and keeps his pads low to the ground, playing with leverage. Effective off the line of scrimmage in pass coverage and productive playing in space. Gives good effort and can be a one-man wrecking crew.


NEGATIVES: Lacks bulk, size and has difficulty getting off blocks once engaged with bigger lineman. Seemingly takes wide angles at times hoping to avoid lineman altogether.

ANALYSIS: Tremendous force who continually alters the momentum of the game with his abilities to make plays behind the line of scrimmage. Consistency to make plays in the backfield almost rivals his willingness to defend the run. Would be productive stood up over tackle in a three-four scheme or equally effective as a defensive end positioned next to a wide bodied tackle. Anyway you cut it should make his presence known early into his rookie season.

The bold underline under analysis = WOLB. Same as Lawson. No one knows how Manny will be at stopping the run in a 3-4, because he's never played. Anyone that says they know with an absolute certainty is blowing smoke. You have to project his ability to make plays in the running game.

I personally like Lawson first and then Carpenter. I think Lawson has more upside than Bobby. I agree with you on one point, Bobby is a better pure LB today. I do think you are over evaluating his pass rush skills though. He is clearly the third best pass rusher when it comes to he, Lawson and Wimbley if you don't have (CarpenterLove).

Most of what is underlined in the Suggs analysis would apply to Lawson also. Would you not agree? Although Lawson did more reps on the bench.

If Bench presses translated 100% to football strength, Leif Larson would be an all pro.

Most of what is underlined in the Suggs analysis would apply to Lawson also. Would you not agree?

You can find many similiarities between any two OLBs/Tweeners. Doesn't mean they're the same.

That said, no I don't think all the underlined describes Suggs and Lawson.



Plus there is some not underlined (bolded) that show an even bigger difference between the two players.

Rack - "He would NOT be effective as a SOLB next season, and maybe never."

First off, how in the WORLD do you know this?

You know all the garbage you've been spewing here the last couple of weeks? It's called your opinion. I also have opinions, just they aren't as smelly as yours.

Rack, and others, don't seem to realize the difference between criticizing his ability as a 4-3 DE and criticizing his ability as a 3-4 OLB.

Ummm... we don't play a 4-3 and I wouldn't want him as a 3-4 DE so.... I've been criticizing his run stopping as a 3-4 OUTSIDE LINEBACKER the whole time. Where the hell do you come up with the garbage you post? Why would you try and take this debate that direction when you know darn well I've never even considered him a DE? Oh, could it be cuz you've got nothing left to do but grasp at straws?

On Suggs... He has been basically been used as a third down, passing situation WOLB since he was drafted.. I'm guessing support against the run isn't his strongest attribute.

No, he hasn't. He's been a starter since about the 3/4 mark of his rookie year. He even did very well vs the run (he is not Manny Lawson) his rookie and second year. They tried to implement the 46 last year and it effected their whole defense (including Ray Lewis and Ed Reed). He still had a solid year though, playing OLB AND DE.

LOL.

Next time just use one of these...


:laugh2:

There are others to choose from as well.

Rack said Suggs could play SOLB. So if Suggs can, and he and Lawson are similar in there profiles, why can't Lawson?

1. I don't agree that their profiles are so similiar.

2. I don't agree with some of what that profile said about Suggs. Never did.



You're bringing up bench presses as "Proof" of what one can do vs the run. All the bench press test does it test your muscle endurance. To see how fast your muscles get tired. If they wanted to test STRENGTH they'd do a 1 rep max.

Never said I didn't like Carpenter. I've just said that I like Lawson more. I wouldn't be upset about it at all; in fact, I've often said that I hope we, AT LEAST, get Lawson, Carpenter, or Wimbley. I'll be happy with any of the three.

Bravo. Now all you have to do is be able to admit to Lawson's weaknesses and you'll be set.

Admitting his weaknesses doesn't mean you have to like him less. I'd still be happy with him and I've come to grips with what he can/can't do (right now).

I agree the potential is there, but I'm not sure he'll ever be an ideal fit for SOLB. That would be making him do more of what he's weak at, and less of what he's strong at.

If Suggs and Lawson are comparable,

They aren't. That profile said Suggs had speed. He doesn't. That's enough to debunk the whole "Comparison" thing right there.

The fact that Suggs got so many sacks and speed had almost NOTHING to do with them shows that he and Lawson are not the same type of player.

Stopping the run as a DE and stopping the run as a LB are two different skill sets. Saying he can do A and he can do B are two different arguments.

That said, Lawson was never very good at all stopping the run as a DE.

So who was playing SOLB opposite Suggs? Was it Peter Boulware by chance? A guy in the same exact mold as Lawson and Wimbley. A guy both have been compared too?

Boulware was hurt most of the last few years in Baltimore. Last year he wasn't even a starter.

Adalius Thomas (6'2", 270 lbs) has been their starter for a few years now.

That one just backfired on you, didn't it?

The fact is, saying Bobby Carpenter is going to make great OLB in our system is just as far a reach as saying Manny Lawson would make a great OLB in our system.

No, it isn't. If we needed a WOLB Lawson would be the better fit. We need a SOLB and Carpenter is the better fit for a SOLB.

He is faster (4.3 is a BIG difference than 4.7)

Wow. All of the sudden Lawson got a tenth of a second faster and Carpenter got a tenth of a second slower.

By the way, that isn't even an opinion. That's simply LYING about the facts.

He is stronger (he scored a 72 on Pat Kirwans scale http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/9326200

So now Pat Kirwans little formula is how we measure strength in football players? Ok.

He has a degree in engineering and that shows me the ability/discipline to do his tape work, understand schemes and be prepared.

Awesome. If Jerry Jones needs some work done at Valley Ranch he can hire Manny Lawson.

He has near identical senior stats as a DE as Carpenter does as an OLB.

Yeah isn't it amazing that Carpenter had almost as many sacks as Lawson despite the fact that Lawson saw more SINGLE teams AND rushed the passer a lot more then Carpenter? Isn't that simply amazing?



By the way, I love Buffalo Wild Wings, but I ate some last week and they made me sick. It could be that I at about 20 of them. That could of done it.

 

[rexrobinson]

Rack you just have a very snobbish way of expressing your opinion as the absolutes and really try with ZERO facts that you are right.

You just did it and you do it over and over....

sorry but it is the truth.. and you are offically on my ignore list..thanks for the tip Hostile.

 

[Rack]

Rack you just have a very snobbish way of expressing your opinion as the absolutes and really try with ZERO facts that you are right.

You just did it and you do it over and over....

sorry but it is the truth.. and you are offically on my ignore list..thanks for the tip Hostile.

Deal with it.


Whiner.

 

[Dough Boy]

??.

Who are you replying to? Half of those quotes you should have targeted elsewhere.

Why are you so defensive? I asked an honest question based on your thread. You disagree with me, I disagree with you, its ok man. You are right, we both have opinions and they smell equally as bad to the other. I just wanted some honest conversation without going over the top. I'll look elsewhere.

 

[theogt]

Ummm... we don't play a 4-3 and I wouldn't want him as a 3-4 DE so.... I've been criticizing his run stopping as a 3-4 OUTSIDE LINEBACKER the whole time. Where the hell do you come up with the garbage you post? Why would you try and take this debate that direction when you know darn well I've never even considered him a DE? Oh, could it be cuz you've got nothing left to do but grasp at straws?

I was unaware of the depth of your reading disability. Let me try again. I will attempt to be as clear as if speaking to a four year old.

The poster asked about analysts who had criticized Lawson's run-stopping ability. I pointed out that some posters INCLUDING YOURSELF have pointed to analyst's criticisms of Lawson's ability against the run. I then pointed out that those criticisms OF THE ANALYSTS were directed towards Lawson playing as a 4-3 DE rather than as a 3-4 OLB.

If this isn't clear to you, PLEASE let me know. I feel obligated to help you understand Rack.

 

[Rack]

Who are you replying to? Half of those quotes you should have targeted elsewhere.

Why are you so defensive? I asked an honest question based on your thread. You disagree with me, I disagree with you, its ok man. You are right, we both have opinions and they smell equally as bad to the other. I just wanted some honest conversation without going over the top. I'll look elsewhere.

Yeah but adding in who I was quoting is too much work. I have my limits.



Can't really answer your question since I don't remember who I quoted each time. I don't usually pay close attention to who I'm quoting, just the quote itself.



And it seems we've got some really oversensitive people here today. Seriously, hate to be blunt (actually it's what I live for), but you need to grow a pair. This is a football forum. Not Martha Stewart's workshow hour, or whatever.


Plus, as I just said, I'm quoting several different people. Just cuz I seemed annoyed when I answered your quote doesn't mean it was your quote that annoyed me.

But since I seem to be hurting people's feelings today, I'll take a couple of doses of estrogen and come back later to post pink, flowery things about love and butterflies.

 

[Rack]

I was unaware of the depth of your reading disability. Let me try again. I will attempt to be as clear as if speaking to a four year old.

The poster asked about analysts who had criticized Lawson's run-stopping ability. I pointed out that some posters INCLUDING YOURSELF have pointed to analyst's criticisms of Lawson's ability against the run. I then pointed out that those criticisms OF THE ANALYSTS were directed towards Lawson playing as a 4-3 DE rather than as a 3-4 OLB.

If this isn't clear to you, PLEASE let me know. I feel obligated to help you understand Rack.

Dude, I understand 100%. I'm trying to get something into your no knowledge skull. You simply don't know. It's like what Parcells says, "You don't know what you don't know".
And you don't know.


If you'd put your Manny Lawson swimsuit calender down for one minute and pay attention you might learn something.


And if you meant to be quoting ANALYSTS, you should of said you were referring to anything BUT analysts.

 

[Rack]

This is the post you quoted:

When in the heck did it become common knowledge that Manny Lawson is bad at run stopping? It has become an easily regergatated garbage comment now based off of nothing, especially not Manny Lawsons actual stats.

I didn't see him refer to any ANALYSTS.



You responded with:

There has been criticism about his run-stopping ability. However, that criticism has been directed at him being 4-3 DE. I wouldn't want him as a 4-3 DE. He's a 3rd+ round pick as a 4-3 DE. Rack, and others, don't seem to realize the difference between criticizing his ability as a 4-3 DE and criticizing his ability as a 3-4 OLB. There has been little, if any, criticism against Lawson regarding his run-stopping ability as a 3-4 OLB. Fortunately, Ireland, et. al., understand this.

Still didn't see anything about ANALYSTS. In fact, you specifically said "Rack and others".


Fortunately, Ireland knows that he can't 100% predict how a 4-3 DE that was weak against the run will do as a 3-4 SOLB vs the run. I'm sure he has a pretty good idea that the results wouldn't be what Parcells is looking for.

 

[theogt]

This is why I mocked your reading skills, Rack. It is pretty clear that the implication was that ANALYSTS have criticized his run-stopping ability. You can criticize it all day, but no one is going to quote you as proof/evidence.