Marvin Harrison

[AbeBeta]

He knew he was 42 before signing with Denver, but he still signed with them. So no, he didn't retire due to age.

If Mike Shanahan had named him a starting WR, he wouldn't have retired.

It had plenty to do with "face". A once-great player couldn't stand the thought of not being a go-to guy.

Did you watch ANY of the last 5 or so years of Rice's career? He wasn't the "go-to-guy" from 1998-2000 with SF. That was TO - In fact, in SF's playoff win over GB, Young locked in on TO on the winning drive and Jerry spoke after that game about a changing of the guard. In Oakland Tim Brown was the clear #1 target with Jerry being the possession receiver. In Seattle he hardly got the ball. So clearly, he had come to terms with not being the "go-to-guy"

We're talking about aging veterans. Don't try to over-simplify it.

Junior Seau, a sure-fire 1st ballot HOFer, "retired" when he didn't think there was an ideal situation for him out there. He didn't say "I'm not playing anymore because nobody really wants me."

How is Seau relevant to this discussion again? He had a chance to play for a great team. Do you really think the Pats bring in guys that no one else wants? Please

When you retire, you're essentially stating that you CHOOSE not to play anymore. In reality, for many of these veterans, the game is making that choice for them.

Which explains why as soon as New England came calling, Junior ended his "retirement". So much for that memorable "THIS IS MY GRADUATION!" retirement press conference.

Again, where is the face saving? He retired then rethought it because he had a chance to win a superbowl.

He "retired" to save face. Just like Daunte Culpepper did.

Again, only the most ignorant poster would compare Culpepper to Harrison, Rice, or Seau

I feel sorry for a 40 year old who feels the need to personally attack a 24 year old simply because they have a disagreement. You appear to be quite insecure about your age and/or level of education.

I won't stoop to your level... I'm sure your existence is punishment enough.

Yes, I'm insecure about my age. If that was the case why would i even put that on my profile? Strike one, *****.

Insecure about my education? Call me Dr., b/c that's my title. Can't get any more ed than that. Strike two, *****.

Personally attack you? You are the one coming out and talking about how much you know about the game based on your "years" of experience. Don't bring it up unless you wanna get hit. Strike three, *****.

 

[Nav22]

Did you watch ANY of the last 5 or so years of Rice's career? He wasn't the "go-to-guy"

I said A go-to guy, not THE go-to guy. He was still a go-to guy in San Francisco and Oakland, even when he wasn't the #1 WR. That wasn't going to be the case in Denver.

Oh, and Rice out-produced Tim Brown by far while the 2 of them were in Oakland. So it looks like you're the one who wasn't watching or paying attention.

How is Seau relevant to this discussion again?

If you don't see the connection between the 2 past-their-prime surefire Hall of Famers, then I'm wasting my time discussing this with you.

He had a chance to play for a great team. Do you really think the Pats bring in guys that no one else wants? Please

If the Patriots had wanted him a couple months earlier, he wouldn't have retired. He retired because the ideal situation didn't appear to be forthcoming.

That's all I'm saying. The retirement came about because he thought the NFL was done with him, not because he didn't want to play football anymore.

It's an incredibly simple concept and yet you're still arguing it with everything you've got. I'm very amused by that.

Again, where is the face saving? He retired then rethought it because he had a chance to win a superbowl.

Pretending to be done with football ("THIS IS MY GRADUATION!")... when the truth is that you'd LOVE to keep playing if an ideal situation presented itself... is saving face, in my book.

Again... by saying, "I retire", you're essentially saying that YOU'RE done with the sport.

But if the truth is that the SPORT is done with you, then the "retirement" is a method of saving face.

I'm not slamming the guy for it. It's done ALL the time in the world of professional sports.

Again, only the most ignorant poster would compare Culpepper to Harrison, Rice, or Seau

I didn't compare them as players, only the manner in which they "retired".

Somehow I knew you'd try that card. Terrible.

Strike one, *****. Strike two, *****. Strike three, *****.

I rest my case.

Enjoy the middle years of your futile existence. I hope you get over your irrational anger at the younger generation.

 

[AbeBeta]

I said A go-to guy, not THE go-to guy. He was still a go-to guy in San Francisco and Oakland, even when he wasn't the #1 WR. That wasn't going to be the case in Denver.

Oh, and Rice out-produced Tim Brown by far while the 2 of them were in Oakland. So it looks like you're the one who wasn't watching or paying attention.

Yeah, he outproduced him so much that Rice ended up losing his job to Joey Porter. And then getting cut. He was clearly not a "go-to-guy" at that point and that point was even more obvious in Seattle where coming in he knew he wouldn't be their #1 or even #2 option. Yet he went there and caught fewer balls than Bobby Engram and Koren Robinson. Happily too. He knew at that point that even mediocre guys were going to get the nod over him. He knew that going in to Denver as well. If his ego was so big he never would have played 3rd or 4th fiddle. He quit b/c he was really really old.

If you don't see the connection between the 2 past-their-prime surefire Hall of Famers, then I'm wasting my time discussing this with you.If the Patriots had wanted him a couple months earlier, he wouldn't have retired. He retired because the ideal situation didn't appear to be forthcoming.

That's all I'm saying. The retirement came about because he thought the NFL was done with him, not because he didn't want to play football anymore.

It's an incredibly simple concept and yet you're still arguing it with everything you've got. I'm very amused by that.Pretending to be done with football ("THIS IS MY GRADUATION!")... when the truth is that you'd LOVE to keep playing if an ideal situation presented itself... is saving face, in my book.

Again, the guys you point to had a reason to keep playing. Jerry was pretty up front about extending his records. Junior wanted to, for once, play for a winner.

Again... by saying, "I retire", you're essentially saying that YOU'RE done with the sport.

But if the truth is that the SPORT is done with you, then the "retirement" is a method of saving face.

Really? Brett Favre retired. Was he saving face? It is clear that several teams wanted him. GB wanted him back. The Jets traded for him. He just flat out changed his mind. Just like Jerry did when he decided he was done and just like Junior did when he decided he wasn't. Lots of players say they are done and change their minds. It isn't saving face, it is coming to terms with the fact that you have something left (or in Jerry's case that you don't).

Enjoy the middle years of your futile existence. I hope you get over your irrational anger at the younger generation.

And I hope the younger generation gets less stupid as they age.

 

[jobberone]

Rice needs no excuses or explanations to anyone.

 

[Nav22]

Yeah, he outproduced him so much that Rice ended up losing his job to Joey Porter. And then getting cut. He was clearly not a "go-to-guy" at that point and that point was even more obvious in Seattle where coming in he knew he wouldn't be their #1 or even #2 option. Yet he went there and caught fewer balls than Bobby Engram and Koren Robinson. Happily too.

The ironic thing here is that YOU were the one questioning MY NFL knowledge.

1) He did outproduce Tim Brown. Their numbers were nearly identical in 2001, then in 2002-03 Rice was clearly the #1 guy.

2) Joey Porter is a Dolphins linebacker. Jerry Porter was the Oakland wide receiver.

3) Rice was never cut by the Raiders... they traded him to Seattle during the 2004 season.

No offense, but you reek of "casual fan".

Really? Brett Favre retired. Was he saving face? It is clear that several teams wanted him. GB wanted him back. The Jets traded for him. He just flat out changed his mind. Just like Jerry did when he decided he was done and just like Junior did when he decided he wasn't. Lots of players say they are done and change their minds. It isn't saving face, it is coming to terms with the fact that you have something left (or in Jerry's case that you don't).

Um... I never said anyone who changes their mind is someone who was originally saving face.

No, I don't think Favre wasn't saving face when he retired after 2007.

But I do believe that his most recent retirement was done to save face. He knew the Jets had no interest in bringing him back as their starting QB in 2009. And the situation in Minnesota was too obviously attractive to him.

It's my opinion that he "retired" in order to segway his comeback to Minnesota. He knew damn well that he was going to attempt to play again in 2009, health willing.

So yes, I think his latest "retirement" was done to save face... because it looks better to retire than it does to be cut. It's a pride/reputation thing.

"No, the Jets weren't done with Brett... Brett was done with the Jets."

So when the Jets finally released his rights, it didn't look like a conventional "release" where the team no longer wants the player's services.

And I hope the younger generation gets less stupid as they age.

Nope, the anger persists. Good thing I'm enjoying my youth... I won't become a bitter middle-aged man like you.

 

[AbeBeta]

The ironic thing here is that YOU were the one questioning MY NFL knowledge.

1) He did outproduce Tim Brown. Their numbers were nearly identical in 2001, then in 2002-03 Rice was clearly the #1 guy.

If you actually watched the team, you'd understand that catches say nothing about the Raider's attack. They are a long passing team. Short yardage has never been their game. Jerry got stats in that O because the QB was getting old. He was NEVER the first option.

2) Joey Porter is a Dolphins linebacker. Jerry Porter was the Oakland wide receiver.

3) Rice was never cut by the Raiders... they traded him to Seattle during the 2004 season.

Woohdee-doo, pedantic argumentation to deflect from your moronic initial posts. What am I off by? Two letters and a 7th round pick? What are you off by? 100 miles?

sn't saving face when he retired after 2007.

But I do believe that his most recent retirement was done to save face. He knew the Jets had no interest in bringing him back as their starting QB in 2009. And the situation in Minnesota was too obviously attractive to him.

It's my opinion that he "retired" in order to segway his comeback to Minnesota. He knew damn well that he was going to attempt to play again in 2009, health willing.

So yes, I think his latest "retirement" was done to save face... because it looks better to retire than it does to be cut. It's a pride/reputation thing.

"No, the Jets weren't done with Brett... Brett was done with the Jets."

So when the Jets finally released his rights, it didn't look like a conventional "release" where the team no longer wants the player's services.Nope, the anger persists. Good thing I'm enjoying my youth... I won't become a bitter middle-aged man like you.

Favre quit so he wouldn't be cut.... right. Frankly, had he been cut, several teams would have snapped him up right away. Instead he waits until after the draft to limit his options...right. To save face he puts himself out there AFTER several teams committed to 1st round QBs? Seriously? Do you think these posts through? Put down the video game, stop checking Facebook every 5 seconds and think CRITICALLY for a few minutes.

 

[Nav22]

They are a long passing team. Short yardage has never been their game.

I had no idea how much of a "casual fan" you were. Unreal.

Ever hear of the West Coast Offense? That was the Raiders attack in '02 and '03. It's a system centered around short passes, not long ones. Their "old QB" was the MVP in 2002 thanks to that system.

He was NEVER the first option.

Yeah. He only had more catches for more yards and more TDs and a higher yards/catch average than any other Raiders offensive starter... in 2002 and in 2003.

But no, he wasn't the #1 option. Right. I'm the moronic one.

What am I off by? Two letters and a 7th round pick?

I'm not deflecting anything. I'm correcting your inaccuracies because I'm embarrassed for you. You try to come off like an expert but you keep shoving your foot in your mouth with every post.

Raiders were a "long-passing team"... freakin' classic.

Do you think these posts through?

Delicious irony.

The guy who didn't know how Rice got to Seattle, didn't know that the Raiders were a WCO team, didn't know that Rice was the most productive Raiders WR (by far)... is asking if I think posts through.

Favre didn't want to play for a Detroit or a San Francisco. He wanted to be in Minnesota (he wanted to be there in 2008 too). That was no secret, and no other contendor was going to throw money at a declining 39 year old QB.

Put down the video game, stop checking Facebook every 5 seconds

You're bumming me out, dude. I hope like hell I'm not this bitter and crusty when I'm 40.

 

[esloan]

Heh.

No offense Abebeta but you are getting dominated in this argument. Quit while your ahead, my friend.

 

[AbeBeta]

But no, he wasn't the #1 option. Right. I'm the moronic one.I'm not deflecting anything. I'm correcting your inaccuracies because I'm embarrassed for you. You try to come off like an expert but you keep shoving your foot in your mouth with every post.

Again, son, if you EVER watched a Raiders game over that period you'd have seen Brown was the #1 target. In fact, when Callahan came in the reason why the stats shot up is that he ADDED a longer passing game to the WCO that Gruden had run. Al Davis loves the long pass and that is one of the reasons that he grew tired of the dink and dunk of Gruden and how he got sold on Callahan. Note how the YPA goes up when Callahan arrives. Rice got a ton of catches but he was always the #2nd option.

Favre didn't want to play for a Detroit or a San Francisco. He wanted to be in Minnesota (he wanted to be there in 2008 too). That was no secret, and no other contendor was going to throw money at a declining 39 year old QB.You're bumming me out, dude. I hope like hell I'm not this bitter and crusty when I'm 40.

Favre could have stayed in GB. But they had decided to move on. In fact, he WANTED to come back there. How do you know that no other contender would throw $$ at him? He wasn't a free agent, so you have nothing to base that on. Oh yeah, how many "contenders" need a new QB? Seems like most contenders have one. So we are already talking a very limited number of clubs that fit your description. The fact that the Jets TRADED for him and that he's currently being pursued by Minny suggests that he clearly had plenty of options and didn't retired b/c there was a lack of opportunity.

 

[joseephuss]

Like I said, he doesn't have much gas left. But who from the available WRs in free agency would you rather have to groom Austin, Hurd, RW11, Crayton, etc?

There's only 3 wideouts who have accumulated more receiving yards than him, Jerry Rice (obviously), Isaac Bruce (currently with the 49ers), and Mr. Raider Tim Brown (retired).

The only drawback I can think of is that I don't think Harrison is the kind of guy who would groom players. He seems very quiet, but jeez if you could get the guy to talk, his words would be gold to our WRs.

Hurd, Austin, Crayton and Roy Williams have all been around long enough that they don't need to be groomed. They are what they are at this point in their respective careers. A veteran receiver is not going to change much in their approach to the game. Harrison does not even talk to teammates during games. He sits on the far end of the bench.

A Marvin Harrison with shot knees is still better than a healthy Crayton.

Is that true? Over the last two seasons Harrison has caught 80 passes for 883 yards(11.04 avg.) and 6 TDs.
Crayton over the last two seasons has caught 89 passes for 1247 yards(14.01 avg.) and 11 TDs. Those shot knees definitely take away from Harrison's game. He is not the same receiver he was when healthy. Even when healthy Harrison came up small in the playoffs. Two career playoff TDs(both in the same wildcard game) is not impressive.

 

[Idgit]

Is that true? Over the last two seasons Harrison has caught 80 passes for 883 yards(11.04 avg.) and 6 TDs.
Crayton over the last two seasons has caught 89 passes for 1247 yards(14.01 avg.) and 11 TDs. Those shot knees definitely take away from Harrison's game. He is not the same receiver he was when healthy. Even when healthy Harrison came up small in the playoffs. Two career playoff TDs(both in the same wildcard game) is not impressive.

That's a pretty interesting comparison. I don't follow Colts football, but I wouldn't have guessed that at all.

 

[AbeBeta]

Is that true? Over the last two seasons Harrison has caught 80 passes for 883 yards(11.04 avg.) and 6 TDs.
Crayton over the last two seasons has caught 89 passes for 1247 yards(14.01 avg.) and 11 TDs. Those shot knees definitely take away from Harrison's game. He is not the same receiver he was when healthy. Even when healthy Harrison came up small in the playoffs. Two career playoff TDs(both in the same wildcard game) is not impressive.

That is true... but in fairness you are comparing 20 games for Harrison to 31 for PC.

 

[Nav22]

Brown was the #1 target.

What do you see when watching an NFL team on TV that tells you who the #1 receiving option is? The number of pass attempts that goes to each WR? The amount of production? Because Jerry Rice led the way in both of those categories.

You already tried to state that Rice was simply the "possession WR" and not the #1... before I pointed out that Rice had a higher yards/catch average than Brown.

In 2002-03, Brown and Rice both started all 32 regular season games.

Brown caught 133 balls for 1497 yards (11.3 average) and 4 TDs.
Rice caught 155 balls for 2080 yards (13.4 average) and 9 TDs.

So the burden of proof is on you to show why Tim Brown was the #1 WR option in those years. The statistical evidence is completely on Rice's side. So I'm fascinated as to why you insist that the Brown was the #1.

Oh, and both WRs' yards/catch average went DOWN the year that Bill Callahan arrived and they went to the Super Bowl. Brown's went from 12.8 to 11.5, Rice's went from 13.7 to 13.2. Substantially lower.

Even Jerry Porter (who I'm assuming you'll turn to next) only averaged 13.5 yards/catch in 2002, a very pedestrian number. For comparison's sake, that 13.5 average matches the career LOW of our own Patrick Crayton, from Crayton's rookie year in '04.

So much for that "long-passing game" being implemented, huh?

Again, son, if you EVER watched a Raiders game over that period

More irony.

Where are you from, "son"? How much Raiders football do YOU watch?

Because I'm from the Bay Area (a miserable location to be an NFL fan without Sunday Ticket), so I watch the Raiders play all season long, every season. Dating back to 1993. I go to sports bars whenever the Cowboys aren't on locally, and of course I watch the prime-time games... but other than that, it's essentially all Raiders and 49ers for me. The Raiders hog the local CBS station and the 49ers do the same with Fox.

So it's hilarious to me when someone questions how much Raiders football I watch. The answer: WAY too much.

Favre could have stayed in GB. But they had decided to move on. In fact, he WANTED to come back there.

1) I've been referring to his 2009 retirement, not his 2008 one.

2) He wanted to come back to Green Bay AFTER already deciding to retire and AFTER the team handed the reins to Aaron Rodgers. That's why it was such a messy situation. If he had originally decided to return for another season, he would've been the Packers starter last year.

Oh yeah, how many "contenders" need a new QB? Seems like most contenders have one. So we are already talking a very limited number of clubs that fit your description.

Exactly my point. Favre didn't want to come back and play for a crap team. He wanted to win games. The Jets had to talk him into being their QB.

He desperately wanted to be a Viking, and the Vikings were pretty much the only QB-needy contender out there. Add in the fact that he's already familiar with the Vikings' system, and it was a perfect fit.

and didn't retired b/c there was a lack of opportunity.

I already said I'm referring to his latest "retirement". His 2008 retirement was due to not wanting to play anymore.

His 2009 retirement is what I question. The Vikings' 2009 situation is identical to what it was in 2008, when he so desperately wanted to be a Viking after the Packers decided they were moving on. So I believe he's had his eye on Minnesota all offseason, even when he "retired" as a Jet.

Not coincidentally, he'll be the Vikings starter this fall.

 

[Tovya]

Favre could have stayed in GB. But they had decided to move on. In fact, he WANTED to come back there. How do you know that no other contender would throw $$ at him? He wasn't a free agent, so you have nothing to base that on. Oh yeah, how many "contenders" need a new QB? Seems like most contenders have one. So we are already talking a very limited number of clubs that fit your description. The fact that the Jets TRADED for him and that he's currently being pursued by Minny suggests that he clearly had plenty of options and didn't retired b/c there was a lack of opportunity.

Right, and furthermore, Favre wanted to play in Minnesota last season anyway, but the Packers wouldn't have it--so he played a season in New York for, what I think, is the goal of getting to play in Minnesota this season.

As a former citizen of Minnesota, I can tell you that regardless of how he plays, he'll be a money machine in Minnesota--the rivalry between the Pack and Vikings is sick.

The mayor of our town was flying a Vikings flag in his front yard, and the local Packer fans got together and burned the Greenbay "G" logo into his lawn.

 

[AbeBeta]

What do you see when watching an NFL team on TV that tells you who the #1 receiving option is? The number of pass attempts that goes to each WR? The amount of production? Because Jerry Rice led the way in both of those categories.

OK smarty, let's go back to your original point. That being that Jerry retired to save face.

You've argued that Rice led the way for the Raiders and was their #1 target. So let me ask this then, a guy who you think took the #1 job away from Tim Brown in Oakland -- as you know Brown is one of the generations best WRs -- decided to quit because he wasn't going to have a prime role in Denver? How is that so? If you believe he came into Oakland and took time from the team's most beloved player, then how could he possibly be afraid of losing snaps to an aging Rod Smith and a chronically under achieving Ashlie Lelie? How on Earth would he not be a "go-to-guy" as you put it under those conditions if he was so superior?

You've argued he was the go-to-guy in Oakland...how exactly would that change overnight with arguably a worse stable of WRs to compete with?

Where are you from, "son"? How much Raiders football do YOU watch?

Every game as I also live in the Raider nation.

(1) I've been referring to his 2009 retirement, not his 2008 one.

...

His 2009 retirement is what I question. The Vikings' 2009 situation is identical to what it was in 2008, when he so desperately wanted to be a Viking after the Packers decided they were moving on. So I believe he's had his eye on Minnesota all offseason, even when he "retired" as a Jet.

How exactly is Favre is saving face? If anything he has made himself look HORRIBLE throughout this entire process. He's had criticism after criticism heaped on him for his indecision. Especially since he's at it for a second time. If anything this 2009 un-retirement does not save face... it paints Brett in a poor light, potentially as the guy who doesn't know when to hang it up. He is losing face, so clearly a "saving face" argument is ridiculous.

 

[joseephuss]

That is true... but in fairness you are comparing 20 games for Harrison to 31 for PC.

That is true. It is because of his knees that Harrison has played in so few games over the last two seasons. He is still a decent player, but not near what he was when younger and healthier. It happens to the best of them.

 

[AbeBeta]

That is true. It is because of his knees that Harrison has played in so few games over the last two seasons. He is still a decent player, but not near what he was when younger and healthier. It happens to the best of them.

Sure. But that is why I think he likely will sign somewhere after training camp. I really expect he's going to end up in Philly as they look to get a little mentoring for their young guys

 

[joseephuss]

Sure. But that is why I think he likely will sign somewhere after training camp. I really expect he's going to end up in Philly as they look to get a little mentoring for their young guys

I agree. He is in no rush at this point in his career and neither are the teams that are interested in him.

 

[peplaw06]

 

[Nav22]

You've argued that Rice led the way for the Raiders and was their #1 target.

I'm still waiting for the evidence of YOUR argument which stated that Tim Brown was the #1 WR. Let's hear it.

So let me ask this then, a guy who you think took the #1 job away from Tim Brown in Oakland -- as you know Brown is one of the generations best WRs -- decided to quit because he wasn't going to have a prime role in Denver? How is that so? If you believe he came into Oakland and took time from the team's most beloved player, then how could he possibly be afraid of losing snaps to an aging Rod Smith and a chronically under achieving Ashlie Lelie? How on Earth would he not be a "go-to-guy" as you put it under those conditions if he was so superior?

You've argued he was the go-to-guy in Oakland...how exactly would that change overnight with arguably a worse stable of WRs to compete with?

Rice was undeniably the most productive WR in Oakland. That's not subjective, no matter how hard you try to make it so.

Here are some quotes from the archived AP article on Rice's retirement...
http://eddriscoll.com/archives/007658.php

The greatest receiver of all time realized he would be no better than the fourth receiver for the Denver Broncos. It was no way for Jerry Rice to end his career, so he called it quits after 20 sensational seasons.

After some early trouble adjusting to the mile-high altitude, Rice looked in shape and ready for a 21st season. About halfway through training camp, he moved ahead of Darius Watts, to Denver's No. 3 receiver spot.

That move caused a stir, but a closer look showed a receiver who had trouble separating from third- and fourth-string cornerbacks in practice, a receiver who finished with four catches for 24 yards in four preseason games.

When Watts improved, Rice was bumped back down the depth chart in the third preseason game. After the finale, Shanahan told Rice he'd be a No. 4, at best, competing for playing time with youngsters Charlie Adams and Todd Devoe.

How exactly is Favre is saving face? If anything he has made himself look HORRIBLE throughout this entire process.

It's my opinion. And that's all it is, an opinion.

He can't look worse by retiring and unretiring again. Those who think he's a drama queen will still think that. Those who love him will still love him. Favre himself has even said as much in interviews.

But his reputation/pride CAN take a hit if the Jets cut him outright. His pride was hit when the Packers didn't take him back last year, but that came after Brett initially rejected THEM by retiring.

Retiring vs. getting cut... the player comes off as the one with the upper hand when he retires. It sounds petty to the rest of us, but sometimes that's the way competitive pro athletes are wired. It's that competitiveness and "hatred of losing" that makes the great ones great.

Again, just my opinion.