Marvin Harrison

[AbeBeta]

I'm still waiting for the evidence of YOUR argument which stated that Tim Brown was the #1 WR. Let's hear it.Rice was undeniably the most productive WR in Oakland. That's not subjective, no matter how hard you try to make it so.

That's also not the freaking point of the discussion now is it? You claimed that guys like Rice quit to "save face" -- prove your original point and stop deflecting. Your Rice vs. Brown argument has sweet FA to do with your "saving face" claims. Nor does it address how he was not the go-to-guy that you claimed he HAD to be over the last year of his career

The greatest receiver of all time realized he would be no better than the fourth receiver for the Denver Broncos. It was no way for Jerry Rice to end his career, so he called it quits after 20 sensational seasons.

After some early trouble adjusting to the mile-high altitude, Rice looked in shape and ready for a 21st season. About halfway through training camp, he moved ahead of Darius Watts, to Denver's No. 3 receiver spot.

That move caused a stir, but a closer look showed a receiver who had trouble separating from third- and fourth-string cornerbacks in practice, a receiver who finished with four catches for 24 yards in four preseason games.

When Watts improved, Rice was bumped back down the depth chart in the third preseason game. After the finale, Shanahan told Rice he'd be a No. 4, at best, competing for playing time with youngsters Charlie Adams and Todd Devoe. It's my opinion. And that's all it is, an opinion.

Again, that isn't saving face. It is realizing you are done. He can't separate from 4th string CBs. He sees that and knows he stayed too long. He showed the previous season he also showed that he was OK with playing for a team that used him NOT as a go-to-guy. If Jerry didn't think he had it in him to beat out Watts, Adams, and Devoe then he's making a smart decision to quit. He isn't doing so to save face, he is doing so because he knows he's done.

Your post clearly notes that he couldn't get past 3rd and 4th string CBs. You think if some other club came a calling that he'd have anything left to be their "go-to-guy?" No. So again, tell me how he's "saving face"

He can't look worse by retiring and unretiring again. Those who think he's a drama queen will still think that. Those who love him will still love him. Favre himself has even said as much in interviews.

But his reputation/pride CAN take a hit if the Jets cut him outright. His pride was hit when the Packers didn't take him back last year, but that came after Brett initially rejected THEM by retiring.

Retiring vs. getting cut... the player comes off as the one with the upper hand when he retires. It sounds petty to the rest of us, but sometimes that's the way competitive pro athletes are wired. It's that competitiveness and "hatred of losing" that makes the great ones great.

Again, just my opinion.

So your argument here is that Favre decided to do the retirement dance again because he didn't want to be released? Funny, Favre stated that when he went to GM Tannenbaum he was told to think about it and not make a rash decision. Further, there were plenty of reports that the Jets fired Mangini at least partly because Favre didn't like playing for him. Clearly, the Jets felt he could go another year and were not likely to cut him. Even if they drafted a QB, they'd be in much better shape had the guy been able to sit for a year.

 

[Nav22]

That's also not the freaking point of the discussion now is it?

Whoa, whoa, whoa... don't get angry just because I'm asking you to defend your stance.

"In Oakland Tim Brown was the clear #1 target with Jerry being the possession receiver."

Either admit that you were wrong here (if you're a big enough man to do so) or defend your stance. Getting pissy is what my 12 year old niece would do.

You claimed that guys like Rice quit to "save face" -- prove your original point and stop deflecting.

You can't "prove" an opinion. If you disagree, that's your prerogative.

I think you're a bit too focused on the phrase "saving face". What I mean is that it's Rice's pride that caused him to retire.

He could've stayed in Denver and helped out as a #4 WR, but decided against it. His pride got in the way, and there's nothing wrong with that. Not many people (Rice included) wanted his last appearances in an NFL uniform to be as a bit player.

So he (here it comes) "saved face" by retiring before what could've potentially been an embarrassing year (for him personally) as a 4th WR.

Funny, Favre stated that when he went to GM Tannenbaum he was told to think about it and not make a rash decision. Further, there were plenty of reports that the Jets fired Mangini at least partly because Favre didn't like playing for him.

Well if those reports are true, I didn't know about them. So I'm wrong about Favre if they are indeed true.

 

[AbeBeta]

Whoa, whoa, whoa... don't get angry just because I'm asking you to defend your stance.

"In Oakland Tim Brown was the clear #1 target with Jerry being the possession receiver."

Either admit that you were wrong here (if you're a big enough man to do so) or defend your stance. Getting pissy is what my 12 year old niece would do.You can't "prove" an opinion. If you disagree, that's your prerogative.

Stats show Jerry outperformed Brown over that 3 year period. It also shows Tim was the lead WR in 2001. So for at least part of the time, by your own metric, Brown was the #1. When Jerry arrived, Brown was the "man" in Oakland. He was the guy they tried to get the ball to. He was the fan favorite and, when Gruden was around, the coach's favorite. You can call him the #2 if you want but that is completely retrospective.

And again. Focus on the actual discussion we are having. Not some minor point that has no relevance to whether Jerry EVER was not the go-to-guy.

I think you're a bit too focused on the phrase "saving face". What I mean is that it's Rice's pride that caused him to retire.

Like you are too focused on whether Jerry was or wasn't the #1 in Oakland?

The fact is that many players retire because they are too proud to go out and get their ***** kicked. You could say that about any aging player.

He could've stayed in Denver and helped out as a #4 WR, but decided against it. His pride got in the way, and there's nothing wrong with that. Not many people (Rice included) wanted his last appearances in an NFL uniform to be as a bit player.

Or, common sense got in the way. Gee, I played last year as an offensive after thought, I'd be doing the same this year, I'm really old... hmmm, time to go.

So he (here it comes) "saved face" by retiring before what could've potentially been an embarrassing year (for him personally) as a 4th WR.Well if those reports are true, I didn't know about them. So I'm wrong about Favre if they are indeed true.

How would his year in Denver be any more embarrassing than his previous season in Oakland/Seattle? That year he managed only 30 catches, despite playing 17 games and a playoff game (he joined Seattle before the Raider's bye and after the 'Hawks had theirs). That's 30 balls over 18 games. Certainly even as a #4 he would have gotten that many and knowing the crap players that were ahead of him, he'd likely be pretty confident that he'd take their jobs.

So Favre isn't saving face... who is left in your face saving pile now?

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

I think Michael Irvin may still have some left in the tank. Why not call him up?

 

[Nav22]

I'm not breaking down your posts anymore. Obviously, it's a matter of opinion, and we don't see eye-to-eye.

Your entire "you need some learnin'!" arrogance was based on the notion that you're the NFL expert and I'm the young punk who needs to "get off Facebook and watch more football".

Then you exposed yourself repeatedly as a casual fan. Foot-in-mouth, foot-in-mouth, foot-in-mouth. Not that you'd ever admit to being wrong or anything.

You've done it once again in your latest post.

That's 30 balls over 18 games. Certainly even as a #4 he would have gotten that many

Since when are #4 WRs promised that many catches? Are you watching the same league as I am?

In 2005, after Rice quit the Broncos, their #2 WR (Lelie) caught 42 balls. Their #3 WR caught NINE balls. No other WR on the squad caught more than two balls.

Old-timer, YOU need some learnin'.

 

[AbeBeta]

I'm not breaking down your posts anymore. Obviously, it's a matter of opinion, and we don't see eye-to-eye.

Your entire "you need some learnin'!" arrogance was based on the notion that you're the NFL expert and I'm the young punk who needs to "get off Facebook and watch more football".

Then you exposed yourself repeatedly as a casual fan. Foot-in-mouth, foot-in-mouth, foot-in-mouth. Not that you'd ever admit to being wrong or anything.

You've done it once again in your latest post.

That's 30 balls over 18 games. Certainly even as a #4 he would have gotten that many

Since when are #4 WRs promised that many catches? Are you watching the same league as I am?

In 2005, after Rice quit the Broncos, their #2 WR (Lelie) caught 42 balls. Their #3 WR caught NINE balls. No other WR on the squad caught more than two balls.

Old-timer, YOU need some learnin'.

Funny, Charlie Adams -- a WR -- caught 21 balls that year. Yet no other WR, save for their #3, caught more than two balls. Nice research. So if their #3 only caught 9 balls that means their #4 got 21?

Adams got that many balls because Lelie and the other WRs sucked so amazingly much. In fact most of the other WR (including Adams) never caught another ball in the NFL and Lelie was gone from the team after the year. Clearly had Rice stayed he would have taken time from those scrubs and even likely had at some of Lelie's PT.

That's 30 balls, easily.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

I'm surprised that he hasn't been picked up by someone. He doesn't have much gas left in the tank but I think he'd be a valuable addition to a team that has a young WR core with lots of potential.

Now if only there was a team with those circumstances...

I for one am so sick of the conventional wisdom that an elder statesman (in other words, over the hill) can come in and upgrade anything. Learning a new system and competing against younger and faster players. Yeah, right.

And I and damned tired of these retreads who can be "leaders" or "lockerroom inspiration."
WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN BADGERERS WHO ARE OLD AND SLOW.
Stay away from the Brookings of this world. Flee from the San Diego and Atlanta connections.
Don't bleed our team with Wade guys or the Harrisons of this world. Don't tale i[ valuable real estate in the lockerroom in place of younger, stronger and quicker players.
Amen