Maso's WR Rankings

Bob Sacamano

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Danny White;1440723 said:
Sorry for dismissing this initially; right or wrong, you clearly put more thought into this than many have given you credit.

So clearly, you think Steve Smith will be a value pick whenever he goes in rounds 2-4.

Why do you think so highly of him?

he's not the only one, Kiper has him as a 1st round pick, and I think is on his top 32 player list

Steve Smith was a heck of a WR in college, albeit underrated, since many thought he was just a possession receiver, even though he averaged a little over 16 yards a catch for his career, but w/ the #s he put up at the Combine, it elevates him in alot of people's eyes, as the production is there, as well as the skill-set

but sad to say, him and CJ are the only WR rankings that I agree w/ on this list:eek::
 

GimmeTheBall!

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masomenos85;1440277 said:
Here are my WR Rankings, as promised (well promised to one person lol). It's not something that predicts where a WR will be chosen, but rather where they deserve to go, based on how their skills project to the NFL. No, the system isn't perfect but by going back and seeing where players like Marques Colston (early-mid second), Mike Williams (6th round) and Patrick Crayton (third) (among others) would have projected has helped me check the validity of the system. This is the first year it will be used on an incoming draft class though and there are going to be a lot of things people don't agree with I imagine.

-Top 5 Pick-Player of Rare Ability
1. Calvin Johnson - 4.9

-Early to Mid First-Pro Bowl Potential
2. Steve Smith - 4.4
3. Dwayne Bowe - 4.2

-Mid to Late First- Very Good Player
none

-Early to Mid Second - Good Player
4. Johnnie Lee Higgins - 3.4

-Mid to Late Second - Above Average Player
5. Anthony Gonzalez - 2.7
6. Ted Ginn Jr - 2.6

-Third Round - Average Player
7. Chris Davis - 2.4
8. Robert Meachem -2.4
9. Laurent Robinson - 2.3
10. Aundrae Allison - 2.1
11. Dallas Baker - 2.0

-Fourth to Fifth - Slightly Below Average Player
none

-Fifth through Sixth - Below Average Player
12. Dwayne Jarrett - 1.2
13. Dave Ball - 1.2
14. Jason Hill - 1.0

-Seventh and UFA - Bottom of Roster
15. Sidney Rice - 0.9
16. Ryne Robinson - 0.5
17. Steve Breaston - 0.5
18. Aaron Fairooz - -0.1
19. Mike Walker - -0.4
20. Chauncey Stuckey - -1.7

So there you go. I haven't been able to do it for every WR prospect in the draft and I haven't been able to find information on Craig Davis from LSU so that's why he's absent from the list. Also Ted Ginn's score hinges on how well he runs on the 12th and right now is just an estimated position.

So three sleepers for this year are Chris Davis, Laurent Robinson and Dallas Baker. Three overrated players are Dwayne Jarrett, Sidney Rice and Jason Hill.

I know it's unpopular to only have a couple guys worthy of first round picks but that's how it works.

Yikes, we'll see how this goes.

I can't quite say I agree with your detective work there, masomenos.
Well, more or less.:)
 

masomenos

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GimmeTheBall!;1440825 said:
I can't quite say I agree with your detective work there, masomenos.
Well, more or less.:)

lol, clever, thanks for the laugh.
 

masomenos

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Bob Sacamano;1440817 said:
he's not the only one, Kiper has him as a 1st round pick, and I think is on his top 32 player list
...
but sad to say, him and CJ are the only WR rankings that I agree w/ on this list:eek::

God I hate that...agreeing with Kiper...man...that's a cause for more scotch...

But come on, you only agree with CJ and Steve Smith? What about Aaron Fairooz way down at the bottom? Or do you think he should be higher? :eek::
 

kTXe

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This looks like you had a formula to rank WR's...but then your dog ate it. So you waited about 24 hours for it to, uh, "pass"...and then posted what you could make out on the good ol' internets.
 

masomenos

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eman721;1440886 said:
This looks like you had a formula to rank WR's...but then your dog ate it. So you waited about 24 hours for it to, uh, "pass"...and then posted what you could make out on the good ol' internets.

That's ok, your "bracket" looks a little off too. :p:
 

burmafrd

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So this formula is really for deep burners and such; slow possession WRs really need not apply?
 

masomenos

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burmafrd;1440917 said:
So this formula is really for deep burners and such; slow possession WRs really need not apply?

Dwayne Bowe is third and he only ran a 4.51, Chris Davis is 7th and he ran a 4.5. Sidney Rice ran a 4.51 and is 12 spots lower than Bowe even though they ran the same 40. Jason Hill ran a 4.32 and he's ranked a spot lower than David Ball who ran a 4.7 and Dwayne Jarrett who ran so slow the batteries in the stopwatch died.

Its not an issue of being a "burner", no.

Edit: A slower possession guy who should apply is a guy like Dallas Baker who is graded as a third round pick and noted as having average potential, maybe a little bit better.
 

zeroburrito

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"It's worth mentioning that Aundrae Allison (East Carolina), Steve Breaston (Michigan), Mike Mason (Tennessee State), Robert Meachem (Tennessee), Sidney Rice (South Carolina), Laurent Robinson (Illinois State), Ryne Robinson (Miami-OH) and Steve Smith (USC) were the only receivers at this year's combine to clock 1.50 or faster in the 10-yard split."


you say meachem is slow off the line? hes one of the only to post below 1.50 in the first 10 yards. Colston also was a wr that posted below 1.5 in the 10 yard split even though his 40 time wasn't that fast.
 

masomenos

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zeroburrito;1440926 said:
It's worth mentioning that Aundrae Allison (East Carolina), Steve Breaston (Michigan), Mike Mason (Tennessee State), Robert Meachem (Tennessee), Sidney Rice (South Carolina), Laurent Robinson (Illinois State), Ryne Robinson (Miami-OH) and Steve Smith (USC) were the only receivers at this year's combine to clock 1.50 or faster in the 10-yard split.


you say meachem is slow off the line? hes one of the only to post below 1.50 in the first 10 yards.

I misspoke, I should have said that he was average off the line in relation to the other WR prospects I graded. The average time was 1.5035 with 6 players running under that time, 6 players running within a +-10% deviation of that time and 8 players running worse than that time. Good job catching that and calling me out on it though. I do have several players who are slower off the line rated above him too, namely Dwayne Bowe. I combine the 10 yard split with some other numbers (not the 40) in order to get an overall explosiveness rating. When I made that comment I was probably just looking at Meachems explosiveness rating and not the actual raw number. Thats a fault on my part, like I said, good catch.

edit: and actually i have Meachem penciled in as running a 1.51 not a sub 1.5, as posted on the combine results of nfldraftscout.com. The hundredth of second really doesn't effect his overall rating at all though.
 

Zaxor

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It looks pretty accurate to me... except I think you might need to run a check on meachem again... I think he might be a tad low..but really it looks about right to me
 

masomenos

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Also, just an update for everyone, I found some numbers for Rhema McKnight a little while ago and just looking over them I think he'll probably sneak into the middle of my rankings somewhere, I'll take care of that later today though.
 

aikemirv

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I don't know your formula and I did not ask for it, but from what I have read in this thread it seems to be based on timimg numbers and so forth. I don't think you can fairly judge a WR based off of numbers. You have to watch him play. You also have to watch who he is playing against. If you have not done that for all the players you rated then I think the formula is seriously flawed.

Burst does not take into account his use of his hands in getting off the line. A cone drill does not account for his footwork in setting up a defender for his break. There is really no number that can account for how he attacks the ball when it is in the air, for ex. Jarrett.

Keyshawn Johnson has no burst but still at his age can catch 70 balls a year. Your rating formula, if you put his numbers in it would probably put him in the negative.
 

masomenos

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You know, regardless of what people think, numbers do translate into on field potential. I'm not saying that numbers = on field success, but they do have a strong correlation with potential. And really that's all the draft is, trying to find players who you think have the best risk/reward ratio. If you take two players who are exactly the same except for the fact that one runs a 7.2 three cone drill and one runs a 6.5 cone drill there's an obvious advantage for the player who runs the quicker time, even if the 7.2 player has better footwork. I know it's cliche, but things like speed can't be taught but things like footwork in route running can.

However, if you draft a player who has physical limitations then you run the risk of that player not being able to translate his success against very athletic NFL opponents. Even if the player ran good routes in college and was able to get separation there's a good possibility that he won't be able to do the same things at the NFL level because his lack of "explosion" will be more pronounced.

Now, I know it can be said that there is no guarantee that a player with great quickness who runs poor routes will ever develop their skills into good route running, but it just comes back to the risk/reward issue. That's why I would argue that the formula is something that is somewhat reliable, it objectively measures, based on a players physical ability and past production, if they're worth taking a risk on drafting early or late.
 

theogt

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Maso, why don't you post the formula? You might get some helpful criticism from the response.
 

masomenos

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theogt;1441462 said:
Maso, why don't you post the formula? You might get some helpful criticism from the response.

I just might, I'm heading up to the mountains this weekend so I'll probably just post them when I get back Sunday night or Monday morning. I'll also post my safety rankings at that time, I know I said I'd do them today but they're just not quite ready.
 

theogt

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masomenos85;1441500 said:
I just might, I'm heading up to the mountains this weekend so I'll probably just post them when I get back Sunday night or Monday morning. I'll also post my safety rankings at that time, I know I said I'd do them today but they're just not quite ready.
Can't wait to see the safety rankings. If you don't mind, I'd like see the formula for safety as well. That's a little harder to judge (mathematically, at least) in my opinion unless you have completion stats, etc.
 

masomenos

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theogt;1441505 said:
Can't wait to see the safety rankings. If you don't mind, I'd like see the formula for safety as well. That's a little harder to judge (mathematically, at least) in my opinion unless you have completion stats, etc.

Yeah, once I get it fine tuned I'll shoot it your way, I'll also respond to your PM about the WR formula when I get back, gotta run now though.

Take care all.
 
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