CFZ McCarthy vs Payton: Edge Big Mac

ConstantReboot

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I really want Payton. I remember him calling the offense when he was here and Romo was starting. We were almost unstoppable. The only that stopped us was Romo's propensity to throw INTs. Our offense started to wane once Garrett took over.

Payton also made New Orleans into a championship team. That team was no where close to ever winning a championship. He brought in Brees and turned that team into an offensive juggernaut. The only reason why New Orleans won a Superbowl was because of Payton. McCarthy won a Superbowl and went to the playoffs many times because he was gifted with Brett Favre and Aaron Rogers.

I also like McCarthy. I think he's the best coach that we've had in a long time. I don't think he's a bad coach at all. However, I just think Peyton is the man if we want to get to the Superbowl. And what someone said up above, wanting to get Vic Fangio here as his Def. Coordinator, I'm all in with that. While McCarthy, all he did was hire his drinking buddies and friends to be coach. That still left a bad taste in my mouth.
 

visionary

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To me it’s not a record thing, it’s a read between the lines thing. If you read up on all the tid-bits written and spoken about both throughout their careers, Sean Payton has been regarded as an offensive genius and a true leader of men. Mike’s compliments have come from his win loss record, seldom if at all has it been about his football acumen, schematics, or leadership.

Players, coaches, and execs around the league have for years and even into the present day lauded Payton for his smarts and leadership. Mike’s reputation has mostly been born from his win/loss record and his player-friendly atmosphere.

I’ll give a few anecdotal examples:

-Greg Jennings who played for McCarthy for years has staunchly defended him after his firing in GB. But his defense has never been about McCarthy’s advanced schematic knowledge or presence, but more about soft skills like listening to his players and assistants. Players who’ve played for Payton such as Jonathan Vilma start by calling him a genius or guru and go into him being a real confidence-boosting leader. I find all the former player analysis of Payton to be much more substance based than McCarthy’s.

-Mike has been on record saying he doesn’t believe in motion. Mike is our head coach and we still don’t even know what he does lol. Kellen calls plays on O and Quinn on D. Tangibly, what’s Mike’s value? Yes we are winning so he deserves credit for sure. But what actually can you say he does? This has never even remotely been a question with Payton.

-McCarthy’s first choice for DC was Mike Nolan lmao. Payton’s is Vic Fangio. Mike held on till the end with senile Dom Capers, Payton hired Dennis Allen who annually had a top flight D. One shows the propensity to stay with buddies and the other shows a propensity for bringing in real coaching talent. Just a small example of the difference in sharpness between the two.

-Look at all the negative things said about Mike his last 4-5 years. Laziness, low IQ, lack of attention to details, and a stale outdated scheme have all been criticisms of McCarthy. Payton’s criticisms have been about being an overbearing and overly competitive guy who can suck the air out of the room. Payton has never ever been criticized for a lack of football intelligence or coaching ability. Just looking at what folks in the league say negatively about both, it’s quite clear who’s the better coach. Give me the A-hole who’s an offensive guru over the guy who you can’t quite tell me what he does well. The things that Mike has been knocked for will never ever be said about Payton.

-Lastly, would anyone, absolutely anyone, trade a first round pick for Mike McCarthy’s services? Not a chance. Multiple teams are more than willing to do so for Payton. Mike was available and the league wasn’t drooling to hire him and he wasn’t seen by anyone as the top option in the coaching cycle. Payton is by far seen as the top option for any opening. Does that not tell y’all something? Don’t you think teams would look at the W/L record and treat them the same like y’all are saying they are? The league knows infinitely more about the coaches than we do, and their actions speak quite clearly.

At some point we have to understand that as fans we only know the W/L record. NFL players, owners, and execs know a lot more about who each guy really is as a coach. When one is widely regarded as a top 5 HC and teams are more than willing to trade draft capital for them and the other is widely regarded as “meh” by the folks who do the hiring and playing, isn’t it quite simple to see who’s got the goods and who doesn’t?

I like Mike, he’s the best coach we’ve had since Parcells. But he’s still a 10-15 range HC, good but no one today thinks he’s an elite HC. Payton was widely regarded as a top 5 HC when he stepped down just a year ago. Just looking at the win/loss record and seeing similar numbers doesn’t make them the same.

We all know where these two guys fall on the coaching ladder, let’s not fool ourselves by looking at the W/L record and claiming they are the same guy. I was going to make a thread myself about this but since we been winning I didn’t feel the need to rain on the parade. But had to let it be known here.

great post
Agree with everything you said

the other issue is the ‘staleness’ factor
If we get bounced this year it is because Mike and Quinn and Moore have been found out by other teams, they know how to beat them and the players will start to tune them out. While Garrett was here I remember reading an article that if a HC does not get to a Conf CG in his first 5 years with the team he will never win a SB with that team

I think Payton will also be very good for Daks continued growth as a top QB

if we get bounced before NFCCG this year, I’d fire the coaches and get Payton/Fangio but it won’t happen
 

IslandCowboy

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Problem with Big Mike is he doesn't really seem to be adding his style to the offense he is letting Kellen run the ship. Also, one of the big areas for me where a coach has an impact is team discipline and our penalties have been terrible since he got here, although they do seem to be getting better for once. It may be the case that Sean wouldn't be much better than Big Mike, but I just think he would add more to the team unless big Mike is doing a bunch of magic behind the scenes.

Also, if we are one or two and done in the playoffs this year again why not try something else. After almost 30 years since our last Superbowl I'm willing to see them try just about anything.
 

noshame

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One coach. GREEN BAY PACKERS
One coach. NEW ORLEANS SAINTS
Does it matter? I think so
 

JBS

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People in here are saying Payton is average without Brees. Are you people stupid or what? Do you know what it takes to be average with the qbs Payton had no named Brees? You guys say it like it’s a bad thing. Why don’t you take a look at what NO is without Payton. I don’t have a problem with people preferring MM over Payton. But at least have an intelligent reasoning.
 

lukemartin79

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I’m going to say it right up front- I don’t understand why so many Cowboys fans act as if Sean Payton is the next HC in Dallas because he’s “special”. McCarthy’s resume is almost identical, even better in some areas, AND- what’s he’s done the last two years is very impressive.

Yes, Big Mac needs to win some playoff games for sure. But IMO, he deserves a lot more credit than he gets around here.

So let’s look at resumes of McCarthy vs Payton:
McCARTHY
  • AGE: 59
  • Regular Season Record- 154-96-2 (.615)
  • Record at Dallas- 29-19 (.604)
  • Playoff Record- 10-9 (.526)
  • Road playoff Record: 5-4
  • SB titles: 1
PAYTON
  • AGE: 58
  • Regular Season Record- 152-89-0 (.631)
  • Playoff Record- 9-8 (.529)
  • Road Playoff Record: 1-5
  • SB Titles: 1
Sorry, I just don’t get the Sean Payton as savior thinking. The resumes are almost the same. But- Big Mac has 5 ROAD PLAYOFF WINS TO PAYTON’S 1.

Barring a collapse in the next month, Mike McCarthy is back next year. And should be.
Isn't the big appeal with Payton being his offensive mind? His play calling, his handling and grooming of QBs? Thats the one big difference in those 2. I am also assuming that is why so many want Payton back in Dallas. Other than that, I agree they are pretty even. They both had great, Hall of Fame QBs too.
 

Plankton

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I really want Payton. I remember him calling the offense when he was here and Romo was starting. We were almost unstoppable. The only that stopped us was Romo's propensity to throw INTs. Our offense started to wane once Garrett took over.

Payton also made New Orleans into a championship team. That team was no where close to ever winning a championship. He brought in Brees and turned that team into an offensive juggernaut. The only reason why New Orleans won a Superbowl was because of Payton. McCarthy won a Superbowl and went to the playoffs many times because he was gifted with Brett Favre and Aaron Rogers.

I also like McCarthy. I think he's the best coach that we've had in a long time. I don't think he's a bad coach at all. However, I just think Peyton is the man if we want to get to the Superbowl. And what someone said up above, wanting to get Vic Fangio here as his Def. Coordinator, I'm all in with that. While McCarthy, all he did was hire his drinking buddies and friends to be coach. That still left a bad taste in my mouth.

Payton never ran the offense in Dallas when Romo was the starter. He went to New Orleans in 2006, and that was the year that Romo became the starter. Todd Haley ran the Cowboy offense that year.
 

Cowboyny

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To me it’s not a record thing, it’s a read between the lines thing. If you read up on all the tid-bits written and spoken about both throughout their careers, Sean Payton has been regarded as an offensive genius and a true leader of men. Mike’s compliments have come from his win loss record, seldom if at all has it been about his football acumen, schematics, or leadership.

Players, coaches, and execs around the league have for years and even into the present day lauded Payton for his smarts and leadership. Mike’s reputation has mostly been born from his win/loss record and his player-friendly atmosphere.

I’ll give a few anecdotal examples:

-Greg Jennings who played for McCarthy for years has staunchly defended him after his firing in GB. But his defense has never been about McCarthy’s advanced schematic knowledge or presence, but more about soft skills like listening to his players and assistants. Players who’ve played for Payton such as Jonathan Vilma start by calling him a genius or guru and go into him being a real confidence-boosting leader. I find all the former player analysis of Payton to be much more substance based than McCarthy’s.

-Mike has been on record saying he doesn’t believe in motion. Mike is our head coach and we still don’t even know what he does lol. Kellen calls plays on O and Quinn on D. Tangibly, what’s Mike’s value? Yes we are winning so he deserves credit for sure. But what actually can you say he does? This has never even remotely been a question with Payton.

-McCarthy’s first choice for DC was Mike Nolan lmao. Payton’s is Vic Fangio. Mike held on till the end with senile Dom Capers, Payton hired Dennis Allen who annually had a top flight D. One shows the propensity to stay with buddies and the other shows a propensity for bringing in real coaching talent. Just a small example of the difference in sharpness between the two.

-Look at all the negative things said about Mike his last 4-5 years. Laziness, low IQ, lack of attention to details, and a stale outdated scheme have all been criticisms of McCarthy. Payton’s criticisms have been about being an overbearing and overly competitive guy who can suck the air out of the room. Payton has never ever been criticized for a lack of football intelligence or coaching ability. Just looking at what folks in the league say negatively about both, it’s quite clear who’s the better coach. Give me the A-hole who’s an offensive guru over the guy who you can’t quite tell me what he does well. The things that Mike has been knocked for will never ever be said about Payton.

-Lastly, would anyone, absolutely anyone, trade a first round pick for Mike McCarthy’s services? Not a chance. Multiple teams are more than willing to do so for Payton. Mike was available and the league wasn’t drooling to hire him and he wasn’t seen by anyone as the top option in the coaching cycle. Payton is by far seen as the top option for any opening. Does that not tell y’all something? Don’t you think teams would look at the W/L record and treat them the same like y’all are saying they are? The league knows infinitely more about the coaches than we do, and their actions speak quite clearly.

At some point we have to understand that as fans we only know the W/L record. NFL players, owners, and execs know a lot more about who each guy really is as a coach. When one is widely regarded as a top 5 HC and teams are more than willing to trade draft capital for them and the other is widely regarded as “meh” by the folks who do the hiring and playing, isn’t it quite simple to see who’s got the goods and who doesn’t?

I like Mike, he’s the best coach we’ve had since Parcells. But he’s still a 10-15 range HC, good but no one today thinks he’s an elite HC. Payton was widely regarded as a top 5 HC when he stepped down just a year ago. Just looking at the win/loss record and seeing similar numbers doesn’t make them the same.

We all know where these two guys fall on the coaching ladder, let’s not fool ourselves by looking at the W/L record and claiming they are the same guy. I was going to make a thread myself about this but since we been winning I didn’t feel the need to rain on the parade. But had to let it be known here.
Totally disagree about the so called offensive genius. If blew more games with his so called gadget plays. Didn’t the Saints lose to a 7-9 Seattle team in the playoffs? They were a terrible team outside their dome
 

Gaede

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Ppl like Payton because he's flashier, and the nostalgia.

I like Mike. We win, are aggressive, and have a great mentality and identity. He's made some goofy choices in the past, and clock management is still a thing, but overall, you can see that he's a championship coach.
 

md2005

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I’m going to say it right up front- I don’t understand why so many Cowboys fans act as if Sean Payton is the next HC in Dallas because he’s “special”. McCarthy’s resume is almost identical, even better in some areas, AND- what’s he’s done the last two years is very impressive.

Yes, Big Mac needs to win some playoff games for sure. But IMO, he deserves a lot more credit than he gets around here.

So let’s look at resumes of McCarthy vs Payton:
McCARTHY
  • AGE: 59
  • Regular Season Record- 154-96-2 (.615)
  • Record at Dallas- 29-19 (.604)
  • Playoff Record- 10-9 (.526)
  • Road playoff Record: 5-4
  • SB titles: 1
PAYTON
  • AGE: 58
  • Regular Season Record- 152-89-0 (.631)
  • Playoff Record- 9-8 (.529)
  • Road Playoff Record: 1-5
  • SB Titles: 1
Sorry, I just don’t get the Sean Payton as savior thinking. The resumes are almost the same. But- Big Mac has 5 ROAD PLAYOFF WINS TO PAYTON’S 1.

Barring a collapse in the next month, Mike McCarthy is back next year. And should be.





Based on statistics your point is valid. Few things to consider. In New Orleans I believe the SYSTEM was special and Brees really flourished in it. Lets not forget he was a castoff from San Diego. In Green Bay. MM had Favre and Rodger maybe; 2 of the top 5 QBs ever (top 10 worst case). I personally would prefer Payton I feel he gives the team an edge on Sundays and is more innovative.
 

nightrain

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I’m going to say it right up front- I don’t understand why so many Cowboys fans act as if Sean Payton is the next HC in Dallas because he’s “special”. McCarthy’s resume is almost identical, even better in some areas, AND- what’s he’s done the last two years is very impressive.

Yes, Big Mac needs to win some playoff games for sure. But IMO, he deserves a lot more credit than he gets around here.

So let’s look at resumes of McCarthy vs Payton:
McCARTHY
  • AGE: 59
  • Regular Season Record- 154-96-2 (.615)
  • Record at Dallas- 29-19 (.604)
  • Playoff Record- 10-9 (.526)
  • Road playoff Record: 5-4
  • SB titles: 1
PAYTON
  • AGE: 58
  • Regular Season Record- 152-89-0 (.631)
  • Playoff Record- 9-8 (.529)
  • Road Playoff Record: 1-5
  • SB Titles: 1
Sorry, I just don’t get the Sean Payton as savior thinking. The resumes are almost the same. But- Big Mac has 5 ROAD PLAYOFF WINS TO PAYTON’S 1.

Barring a collapse in the next month, Mike McCarthy is back next year. And should be.
Good stuff Hazey. The numbers speak for themselves. Both really good coaches. The Cowboys would be dreadfully incompetent to part with all the assets it would take to get Payton. Knowing the Jones' M.O., I would suspect motives beyond football with that move.
 

Doomsday101

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I’m going to say it right up front- I don’t understand why so many Cowboys fans act as if Sean Payton is the next HC in Dallas because he’s “special”. McCarthy’s resume is almost identical, even better in some areas, AND- what’s he’s done the last two years is very impressive.

Yes, Big Mac needs to win some playoff games for sure. But IMO, he deserves a lot more credit than he gets around here.

So let’s look at resumes of McCarthy vs Payton:
McCARTHY
  • AGE: 59
  • Regular Season Record- 154-96-2 (.615)
  • Record at Dallas- 29-19 (.604)
  • Playoff Record- 10-9 (.526)
  • Road playoff Record: 5-4
  • SB titles: 1
PAYTON
  • AGE: 58
  • Regular Season Record- 152-89-0 (.631)
  • Playoff Record- 9-8 (.529)
  • Road Playoff Record: 1-5
  • SB Titles: 1
Sorry, I just don’t get the Sean Payton as savior thinking. The resumes are almost the same. But- Big Mac has 5 ROAD PLAYOFF WINS TO PAYTON’S 1.

Barring a collapse in the next month, Mike McCarthy is back next year. And should be.

I agree, I like Payton and think he is a very good HC but I feel the same with McCarthy who has had just as good of a career as Payton. I hope to see McCarthy remain as HC of this team
 

Bobhaze

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I really want Payton. I remember him calling the offense when he was here and Romo was starting. We were almost unstoppable. The only that stopped us was Romo's propensity to throw INTs. Our offense started to wane once Garrett took over.

Payton also made New Orleans into a championship team. That team was no where close to ever winning a championship. He brought in Brees and turned that team into an offensive juggernaut. The only reason why New Orleans won a Superbowl was because of Payton. McCarthy won a Superbowl and went to the playoffs many times because he was gifted with Brett Favre and Aaron Rogers.

I also like McCarthy. I think he's the best coach that we've had in a long time. I don't think he's a bad coach at all. However, I just think Peyton is the man if we want to get to the Superbowl. And what someone said up above, wanting to get Vic Fangio here as his Def. Coordinator, I'm all in with that. While McCarthy, all he did was hire his drinking buddies and friends to be coach. That still left a bad taste in my mouth.
I find the comment “We were almost unstoppable” interesting because in the playoffs we were very stoppable. We never won a single playoff game with Payton as OC.
 

Doomsday101

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wait until NO demands a 1st rd pick for Payton. No way would I give up draft capital for Payton. Reports that NO will want more should in be a team in their own division.
 

Plankton

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I don't think that Payton is a significant upgrade over McCarthy, regardless of what the perception around the league is. Besides, to overcome the ownership and the "distinct advantages" of the setup in Dallas, you would have to be exceptional as a head coach, or have a team so talented that they can win on auto-pilot (see 1995). Neither coach is that guy.
 

blueblood70

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:laugh:Cowboy fans are so delusional.

Mike McCarthy will soon be fired by Jerry Jones. Whether or not it's 1 month or 13 months from now remains to be seen. I'd lean towards early 2024, because Jones won't want to pay 2 coaches at once. Then McCarthy will be finished, no team will ever hire him again. The only team that would have considered hiring him 3 years ago was the Cowboys.

Sean Payton will be the hottest commodity on the coaching market in years. He can almost name where he wants to be and his price. Doesn't matter whether his record justifies that money and hype or not. Everyone wants Payton, no one wants McCarthy.

IMO, the biggest reason is Payton has an identity. He has an offensive system where he runs tons of formations with different personnel. OTOH, McCarthy has no identity. He's a big, fat guy who only won because he had Brett Favre and then Aaron Rodgers. He has no offensive system, it's Kellen Moore's, and the defense is ran by Quinn. There's nothing else there. The team doesn't adopt his personality, because he doesn't have one.

Once SF or Phi embarrasses the Cowboys in January, we'll have rounds of threads about why he should be fired, and a handful of homers will defend why he shouldn't. The sad fact is McCarthy is only slightly more consequential to the Cowboys' fortunes than those of us posting in this thread. He doesn't run this team, the Jones family does. Until that changes, it won't matter.

I would add, you should all hope the Cowboys hire Payton. He has options, half the league will want to hire him. He won't choose Dallas if he has no roster control and if the old fool will remain on his draft warroom throne come April. Hiring him would signal a gigantic, hopeful shift in the way the team is ran. Which is why it won't happen.

that would be all coaches on all teams at some point get fired or retires LMAO..good one though.. unless this is the Old school nfl where Landry and now BB stay far longer than expected. Parcels and Jimmy has never stayed longer than they needed too like 5 years or less and left for bigger challenges.

MM has no effect , hes obviously been more successful then Garett already , done more with less and now the b2b doble digit win and playoff birth seasons for the first time since 1996, MM has nothing to do with that ..umm ok.. clueless fans.. will MCclay and an entire staff all responsible for what goes on with our team. its group effort each year is new year and since the final month of 2020 MM has this team 27-10 , right nothing to do with him. just randomly lucky
 
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