CFZ McCarthy vs Payton: Edge Big Mac

[Diehardblues]

You can add to that McC didn’t walk off on his team and leave them with those QB’s.

Members here complain about pass happy, what do they think Payton is? That’s why he was demoted in NY.

Payton also chews gum like a Valley girl. McC doesn’t chew gum. If they’d allow it, he’d chew tobaccy because he’s a real man.

Lol. I’m not sure what a Valley Girl chewing gum looks like . Funny as hell Coach . Never heard that .
Happy New Year M!!

 

[75boyz]

No ex-Parcells coach or player is coming to be apart of Jerry's World. Parcells was the one to tell Payton to get out of Dallas after Jerry's T.O./the Player mess.

Sean Payton built a team from scratch as the Saints were horrid and coming off of Hurricane Katrina drama with their owner. Sean found a QB, and built a team with the GM that consistently won being literally cheated out of a Super Bowl appearance with a no call pass interference in 2018 so the New Stadium LA Rams could go to the Super Bowl.

McCarthy was so good in New Orleans that he did not even consider the HC position Sean Payton got in 2006. McCarthy took the layup job with Brett Farve as his QB and Rodgers in the wings. However, Sean proved his coaching medal and leadership taking that Saints team and making them winners.

Yep, to all of this. Nice post.

 

[817Gill]

great post
Agree with everything you said

the other issue is the ‘staleness’ factor
If we get bounced this year it is because Mike and Quinn and Moore have been found out by other teams, they know how to beat them and the players will start to tune them out. While Garrett was here I remember reading an article that if a HC does not get to a Conf CG in his first 5 years with the team he will never win a SB with that team

I think Payton will also be very good for Daks continued growth as a top QB

if we get bounced before NFCCG this year, I’d fire the coaches and get Payton/Fangio but it won’t happen

Yup great point totally agree

 

[817Gill]

Totally disagree about the so called offensive genius. If blew more games with his so called gadget plays. Didn’t the Saints lose to a 7-9 Seattle team in the playoffs? They were a terrible team outside their dome

You’d be disagreeing with the league then. It’s pretty consensus that he’s an offensive genius. His schemes have always been multiple and he’s never been figured out.

All those things that ended Mike’s tenure in GB would never be associated with Payton. He is by far and away the better offensive mind. You know who else gets criticized for gadget plays? Andy Reid. Sometimes the smartest minds can get a bit carried away, doesn’t mean they aren’t at the top of the league schematically.

Find me one person saying Payton’s schemes are stale or lacking creativity. I can find you 8 articles on Mike being accused of that same thing.

I mean even here in Dallas, the fact that he doesn’t call plays while having guys in the media claim he doesn’t know the playbook is classic Mike McCarthy criticism. Again, you’ll never hear anything like that about Payton.

Your criticism of Payton is cut paste what was said about Andy Reid. Nobody is perfect but Payton has much more to offer than Mike.

 

[Doomsday101]

As I said I think both are good coaches, some like Payton more fine but ask yourself is he worth giving up a 1st rd pick? NO is not allowing him to walk without compensation

 

[tunahelper]

I’m going to say it right up front- I don’t understand why so many Cowboys fans act as if Sean Payton is the next HC in Dallas because he’s “special”. McCarthy’s resume is almost identical, even better in some areas, AND- what’s he’s done the last two years is very impressive.

Yes, Big Mac needs to win some playoff games for sure. But IMO, he deserves a lot more credit than he gets around here.

So let’s look at resumes of McCarthy vs Payton:
McCARTHY

• AGE: 59
• Regular Season Record- 154-96-2 (.615)
• Record at Dallas- 29-19 (.604)
• Playoff Record- 10-9 (.526)
• Road playoff Record: 5-4
• SB titles: 1

PAYTON

• AGE: 58
• Regular Season Record- 152-89-0 (.631)
• Playoff Record- 9-8 (.529)
• Road Playoff Record: 1-5
• SB Titles: 1

Sorry, I just don’t get the Sean Payton as savior thinking. The resumes are almost the same. But- Big Mac has 5 ROAD PLAYOFF WINS TO PAYTON’S 1.

Barring a collapse in the next month, Mike McCarthy is back next year. And should be.

Do you allow for organizational structure in your evaluation. Look at the two organizations, prior to each coaches tenure. We look at stats, but we forget about front office, scouting, philosophy, etc. These things matter and I would say GB had these areas far more developed and in place before MM.

 

[Cowboyny]

You’d be disagreeing with the league then. It’s pretty consensus that he’s an offensive genius. His schemes have always been multiple and he’s never been figured out.

All those things that ended Mike’s tenure in GB would never be associated with Payton. He is by far and away the better offensive mind. You know who else gets criticized for gadget plays? Andy Reid. Sometimes the smartest minds can get a bit carried away, doesn’t mean they aren’t at the top of the league schematically.

Find me one person saying Payton’s schemes are stale or lacking creativity. I can find you 8 articles on Mike being accused of that same thing.

I mean even here in Dallas, the fact that he doesn’t call plays while having guys in the media claim he doesn’t know the playbook is classic Mike McCarthy criticism. Again, you’ll never hear anything like that about Payton.

Your criticism of Payton is cut paste what was said about Andy Reid. Nobody is perfect but Payton has much more to offer than Mike.

His coaching record is good, but so is MM’s. Both had hall of fame qb’s in their primes, but yet won just once. To say Payton is night and day better isn’t accurate.

 

[817Gill]

His coaching record is good, but so is MM’s. Both had hall of fame qb’s in their primes, but yet won just once. To say Payton is night and day better isn’t accurate.

My point is the only thing you can say is W/L record. Any digging after that and you see the clear chasm.

Ask yourself, why has Mike had so many anonymous sources question his football acumen and Payton hasn’t? Why do people question his IQ? Why have media questioned if he even knows the playbook? Has anyone even remotely accused Payton of such ineptitude?

And for a more tangible question, why was Mike not a highly sought after candidate when he was available while teams are willing to trade actual draft capital for Payton?

Like I said previously, all you have to do is watch the leagues actions with both and you get a clear idea of who’s better. One coach the league is drooling over and everyone wants, one was allowed a gap year and only interviewed by two teams before getting our job.

You think fans and the win/loss record have more insight on these guys than actual GM’s and owners?

 

[Momanpr100]

To me it’s not a record thing, it’s a read between the lines thing. If you read up on all the tid-bits written and spoken about both throughout their careers, Sean Payton has been regarded as an offensive genius and a true leader of men. Mike’s compliments have come from his win loss record, seldom if at all has it been about his football acumen, schematics, or leadership.

Players, coaches, and execs around the league have for years and even into the present day lauded Payton for his smarts and leadership. Mike’s reputation has mostly been born from his win/loss record and his player-friendly atmosphere.

I’ll give a few anecdotal examples:

-Greg Jennings who played for McCarthy for years has staunchly defended him after his firing in GB. But his defense has never been about McCarthy’s advanced schematic knowledge or presence, but more about soft skills like listening to his players and assistants. Players who’ve played for Payton such as Jonathan Vilma start by calling him a genius or guru and go into him being a real confidence-boosting leader. I find all the former player analysis of Payton to be much more substance based than McCarthy’s.

-Mike has been on record saying he doesn’t believe in motion. Mike is our head coach and we still don’t even know what he does lol. Kellen calls plays on O and Quinn on D. Tangibly, what’s Mike’s value? Yes we are winning so he deserves credit for sure. But what actually can you say he does? This has never even remotely been a question with Payton.

-McCarthy’s first choice for DC was Mike Nolan lmao. Payton’s is Vic Fangio. Mike held on till the end with senile Dom Capers, Payton hired Dennis Allen who annually had a top flight D. One shows the propensity to stay with buddies and the other shows a propensity for bringing in real coaching talent. Just a small example of the difference in sharpness between the two.

-Look at all the negative things said about Mike his last 4-5 years. Laziness, low IQ, lack of attention to details, and a stale outdated scheme have all been criticisms of McCarthy. Payton’s criticisms have been about being an overbearing and overly competitive guy who can suck the air out of the room. Payton has never ever been criticized for a lack of football intelligence or coaching ability. Just looking at what folks in the league say negatively about both, it’s quite clear who’s the better coach. Give me the A-hole who’s an offensive guru over the guy who you can’t quite tell me what he does well. The things that Mike has been knocked for will never ever be said about Payton.

-Lastly, would anyone, absolutely anyone, trade a first round pick for Mike McCarthy’s services? Not a chance. Multiple teams are more than willing to do so for Payton. Mike was available and the league wasn’t drooling to hire him and he wasn’t seen by anyone as the top option in the coaching cycle. Payton is by far seen as the top option for any opening. Does that not tell y’all something? Don’t you think teams would look at the W/L record and treat them the same like y’all are saying they are? The league knows infinitely more about the coaches than we do, and their actions speak quite clearly.

At some point we have to understand that as fans we only know the W/L record. NFL players, owners, and execs know a lot more about who each guy really is as a coach. When one is widely regarded as a top 5 HC and teams are more than willing to trade draft capital for them and the other is widely regarded as “meh” by the folks who do the hiring and playing, isn’t it quite simple to see who’s got the goods and who doesn’t?

I like Mike, he’s the best coach we’ve had since Parcells. But he’s still a 10-15 range HC, good but no one today thinks he’s an elite HC. Payton was widely regarded as a top 5 HC when he stepped down just a year ago. Just looking at the win/loss record and seeing similar numbers doesn’t make them the same.

We all know where these two guys fall on the coaching ladder, let’s not fool ourselves by looking at the W/L record and claiming they are the same guy. I was going to make a thread myself about this but since we been winning I didn’t feel the need to rain on the parade. But had to let it be known here.

What he actually does is win lol.

 

[Playmaker3128]

If it wasn’t for the worst non call in nfl history Peyton may have two super bowls.

Also last years playoff game the penalties and unprepared play. Does that happen under Peyton? I just don’t think it does.

what happened last year under MM was an indictment of this team the past 20 years. Unprepared football In the most important games

I’m willing to give MM a shot this year but anything less than an nfc title game is a complete failure in my opinion

 

[817Gill]

What he actually does is win lol.

Sure, would love to hear a tangible answer on what he actually does though. Again, I like Mike generally, but soft skills and being player friendly can only take you so far.

When a playoff team has answers for what we do, is Mike the guy who can make the schematic changes to outscheme them or is he always gonna rely on Moore?

They both win, we are trying to dig deeper than that and see who’s really him.

 

[charron]

Neither are saviors. Both won a SB with.....a HOF QB in his prime. That is the primary thing that seperates them from coaches like Garrett untill proven otherwise.

 

[terra]

Jerry hates eating coaching contracts. Can’t really blame him but it’s the reason we had Garret for so long.

No, the money was NOT the reason Jethro did not get rid of JG - he wanted to prove that he was right about Ginger becoming a top coach. And Jethro HATES to admit when he is wrong.
THAT is why we suffered Ginger for so long. And why Jethro was pretty much dragged kicking and screaming to the point of firing him.

 

[Stash]

I’m going to say it right up front- I don’t understand why so many Cowboys fans act as if Sean Payton is the next HC in Dallas because he’s “special”. McCarthy’s resume is almost identical, even better in some areas, AND- what’s he’s done the last two years is very impressive.

Yes, Big Mac needs to win some playoff games for sure. But IMO, he deserves a lot more credit than he gets around here.

So let’s look at resumes of McCarthy vs Payton:
McCARTHY

• AGE: 59
• Regular Season Record- 154-96-2 (.615)
• Record at Dallas- 29-19 (.604)
• Playoff Record- 10-9 (.526)
• Road playoff Record: 5-4
• SB titles: 1

PAYTON

• AGE: 58
• Regular Season Record- 152-89-0 (.631)
• Playoff Record- 9-8 (.529)
• Road Playoff Record: 1-5
• SB Titles: 1

Sorry, I just don’t get the Sean Payton as savior thinking. The resumes are almost the same. But- Big Mac has 5 ROAD PLAYOFF WINS TO PAYTON’S 1.

Barring a collapse in the next month, Mike McCarthy is back next year. And should be.

I agree about the ‘barring a collapse’ part for sure.

But I personally think that Payton is a better, more creative offensive mind.

(anyone have each coach’s offenses rankings handy?)

And if Quinn is leaving as is widely assumed, I’d much prefer a combination of Payton and Fangio compared to McCarthy and the next Mike Nolan.

 

[Stash]

Jerry hates eating coaching contracts. Can’t really blame him but it’s the reason we had Garret for so long.

That’s not the reason.

 

[Plankton]

I agree about the ‘barring a collapse’ part for sure.

But I personally think that Payton is a better, more creative offensive mind.

(anyone have each coach’s offenses rankings handy?)

And if Quinn is leaving as is widely assumed, I’d much prefer a combination of Payton and Fangio compared to McCarthy and the next Mike Nolan.

 

[Doomsday101]

Coaches who have been traded and the cost
Bellicheck: Paul Taglibue awarded the Jets the Patriots first-round pick in 2000 and a fourth and seventh-round pick in 2001.
Jon Gruden (Oakland Raiders to Tampa Bay, 2002) first-round draft pick in 2002, a first-round pick in 2003 and a second round pick in 2004. The Buccaneers also threw in $8 million in cash.

I like Payton but no way in hell would I be willing to give up multiple picks including a 1st rd pick. Saints are not going to allow Payton to go elsewhere without some much needed draft picks

 

[Stash]

Coaches who have been traded and the cost
Bellicheck: Paul Taglibue awarded the Jets the Patriots first-round pick in 2000 and a fourth and seventh-round pick in 2001.
Jon Gruden (Oakland Raiders to Tampa Bay, 2002) first-round draft pick in 2002, a first-round pick in 2003 and a second round pick in 2004. The Buccaneers also threw in $8 million in cash.

I like Payton but no way in hell would I be willing to give up multiple picks including a 1st rd pick. Saints are not going to allow Payton to go elsewhere without some much needed draft picks

I’m curious as to exactly how that would work. Neither Belicheck nor Gruden retired before they were traded for. And what’s the ruling if Payton simply says “OK, I’ll coach the Saints then.” Do they push out the current coach?

 

[75boyz]

Do you allow for organizational structure in your evaluation. Look at the two organizations, prior to each coaches tenure. We look at stats, but we forget about front office, scouting, philosophy, etc. These things matter and I would say GB had these areas far more developed and in place before MM.

Yeah, nice post. Eromeopolk reminded me in his previous post how Payton basically built that Saints organization up from the ground up. They were yearly doormats for forever prior to his arrival. He changed the whole Saint culture.

Green Bay definitely had much more foundation in place with its infrastructure and past success than what Payton inherited in NO. Really, there's no comparison. So in that regard, Payton's experience far surpasses McCarthy.

He already changed a whole organizational culture once.
He would never be given the autonomy to do it in Dallas unfortunately.
The whole Jerry has to have full credit ego thing and all...

That's too bad if ya ask me.

 

[Doomsday101]

I’m curious as to exactly how that would work. Neither Belicheck nor Gruden retired before they were traded for. And what’s the ruling if Payton simply says “OK, I’ll coach the Saints then.” Do they push out the current coach?

There are rumors he could go back to NO. I do know, they will want compensation especially if it is in their own division. They will not allow him to coach anywhere without getting picks