CFZ McCarthy vs Payton: Edge Big Mac

[Stash]

There are rumors he could go back to NO. I do know, they will want compensation especially if it is in their own division. They will not allow him to coach anywhere without getting picks

I would bet that they would want some compensation. But that doesn’t answer the questions I posed.

 

[Doomsday101]

I would bet that they would want some compensation. But that doesn’t answer the questions I posed.

They own his right they can ask for whatever they want. Really does not matter if Payton retired they still control his rights.

 

[Havic]

If Peyton was smart, he would go be coach of the Chargers. A lot of pieces already there.

 

[Stash]

They own his right they can ask for whatever they want. Really does not matter if Payton retired they still control his rights.

And what happens if he says “I’ll coach the Saints”?

 

[Doomsday101]

And what happens if he says “I’ll coach the Saints”?

I think they would fire Dennis Allen and gladly welcome Payton back in New Orleans. I don't think that will happen, I do think some team will court Payton and be willing to pay it. I do not think Dallas will however. Teams who would be interested I think would be Denver or LA Chargers . Denver has committed to Russell Wilson and fired Hackett and I believe they will look to a coach who can get Wilson going. Chargers with Herbert should they fire their haed coach again I think they will look to someone they feel can work with the QB.

 

[Stash]

I think they would fire Dennis Allen and gladly welcome Payton back in New Orleans. I don't think that will happen, I do think some team will court Payton and be willing to pay it. I do not think Dallas will however. Teams who would be interested I think would be Denver or LA Chargers . Denver has committed to Russell Wilson and fired Hackett and I believe they will look to a coach who can get Wilson going. Chargers with Herbert should they fire their haed coach again I think they will look to someone they feel can work with the QB.

My own guess is that the Saints asking price will be less than a 1st round pick. He left New Orleans on good terms.

 

[WarDaddy]

I’m going to say it right up front- I don’t understand why so many Cowboys fans act as if Sean Payton is the next HC in Dallas because he’s “special”. McCarthy’s resume is almost identical, even better in some areas, AND- what’s he’s done the last two years is very impressive.

Yes, Big Mac needs to win some playoff games for sure. But IMO, he deserves a lot more credit than he gets around here.

So let’s look at resumes of McCarthy vs Payton:
McCARTHY

• AGE: 59
• Regular Season Record- 154-96-2 (.615)
• Record at Dallas- 29-19 (.604)
• Playoff Record- 10-9 (.526)
• Road playoff Record: 5-4
• SB titles: 1

PAYTON

• AGE: 58
• Regular Season Record- 152-89-0 (.631)
• Playoff Record- 9-8 (.529)
• Road Playoff Record: 1-5
• SB Titles: 1

Sorry, I just don’t get the Sean Payton as savior thinking. The resumes are almost the same. But- Big Mac has 5 ROAD PLAYOFF WINS TO PAYTON’S 1.

Barring a collapse in the next month, Mike McCarthy is back next year. And should be.

Thank you. I’ve been saying this since last season. These coaches have accomplished the same. They have near identical résumés. They are the same cat. One had Drew Brees. The other had Aaron Rodgers. Same results.

 

[Doomsday101]

My own guess is that the Saints asking price will be less than a 1st round pick. He left New Orleans on good terms.

I don't. Saints need the picks and while they left on good terms does not change the fact they have something other teams that want and would be willing to pay. It is not slap at Payton. As I said a team within their own division? yeah it will be more than just a 1st rd pick they will demand but I don't see NO letting him go to another team for anything less than a 1st pick

 

[75boyz]

Yeah, nice post. Eromeopolk reminded me in his previous post how Payton basically built that Saints organization up from the ground up. They were yearly doormats for forever prior to his arrival. He changed the whole Saint culture.

Green Bay definitely had much more foundation in place with its infrastructure and past success than what Payton inherited in NO. Really, there's no comparison. So in that regard, Payton's experience far surpasses McCarthy.

He already changed a whole organizational culture once.
He would never be given the autonomy to do it in Dallas unfortunately.
The whole Jerry has to have full credit ego thing and all...

That's too bad if ya ask me.

And,
"Happy Birthday" Coach Payton too.
Lol

 

[fansince68]

The real issue is Payton brings his own offense and based on news reports he already has a defensive coordinator in mind, a good one in fact (Fangio).

Our experience with McCarthy so far has been with the same offensive coordinator and a bad hand-chosen defensive coordinator before landing a good one that will likely be gone after this year.

I would like to think the McCarthy can find success with other coordinators, but his first choice for defensive coordinator was a really bad one and that combined with Moore having success before McCarthy arrived makes me question how good he is without great coordinators.

At this point, I think it is too early to make any determination on whether McCarthy, Payton or someone else is a better option for the Cowboys.

If the Cowboys fail to make a deep run to the Super Bowl yet again, then I think it is fair to wonder if McCarthy is the right guy.

Excellent assessment. .....

 

[Stash]

I don't. Saints need the picks and while they left on good terms does not change the fact they have something other teams that want and would be willing to pay. It is not slap at Payton. As I said a team within their own division? yeah it will be more than just a 1st rd pick they will demand but I don't see NO letting him go to another team for anything less than a 1st pick

We’ll see.

 

[Stash]

The real issue is Payton brings his own offense and based on news reports he already has a defensive coordinator in mind, a good one in fact (Fangio).

Our experience with McCarthy so far has been with the same offensive coordinator and a bad hand-chosen defensive coordinator before landing a good one that will likely be gone after this year.

I would like to think the McCarthy can find success with other coordinators, but his first choice for defensive coordinator was a really bad one and that combined with Moore having success before McCarthy arrived makes me question how good he is without great coordinators.

At this point, I think it is too early to make any determination on whether McCarthy, Payton or someone else is a better option for the Cowboys.

If the Cowboys fail to make a deep run to the Super Bowl yet again, then I think it is fair to wonder if McCarthy is the right guy.

 

[Cowboyny]

My point is the only thing you can say is W/L record. Any digging after that and you see the clear chasm.

Ask yourself, why has Mike had so many anonymous sources question his football acumen and Payton hasn’t? Why do people question his IQ? Why have media questioned if he even knows the playbook? Has anyone even remotely accused Payton of such ineptitude?

And for a more tangible question, why was Mike not a highly sought after candidate when he was available while teams are willing to trade actual draft capital for Payton?

Like I said previously, all you have to do is watch the leagues actions with both and you get a clear idea of who’s better. One coach the league is drooling over and everyone wants, one was allowed a gap year and only interviewed by two teams before getting our job.

You think fans and the win/loss record have more insight on these guys than actual GM’s and owners?

What I have seen is that he got our team in the playoffs back to back years. This yr we lost our qb for several weeks and lost multiple veterans and he was still successful. I am confident he is a hc who we can win with. I really do not see a big upgrade with Payton, especially with giving the Saints compensation for his services.

 

[817Gill]

What I have seen is that he got our team in the playoffs back to back years. This yr we lost our qb for several weeks and lost multiple veterans and he was still successful. I am confident he is a hc who we can win with. I really do not see a big upgrade with Payton, especially with giving the Saints compensation for his services.

I never said he can’t win and generally feel positively about him. I just know he’s not an elite HC when Payton is regarded as such. Why not have the highest ceiling possible?

I will always go back to what those who do the coaching hires think. One coach teams are willing to trade draft capital for and the other was available for a year with no one overtly interested. One guy is regarded throughout the league as a guru and the other has been accused of not knowing the playbook.

There has been multiple games where we all feel Mike is getting out-coached, that doesn’t happen with Payton.

Again, I like Mike and think he’s a good coach. But why settle for good when you can have a guy who can go toe to toe with any coach? Just look at how their peers discuss/regard them.

Win/Loss records don’t tell the whole story about one person or player. So many things go into that. We have to be able to isolate the ability and league wide reputation of both. When you look solely at their coaching ability, Payton gives your team a better chance to win it all than Mike does.

 

[75boyz]

To me it’s not a record thing, it’s a read between the lines thing. If you read up on all the tid-bits written and spoken about both throughout their careers, Sean Payton has been regarded as an offensive genius and a true leader of men. Mike’s compliments have come from his win loss record, seldom if at all has it been about his football acumen, schematics, or leadership.

Players, coaches, and execs around the league have for years and even into the present day lauded Payton for his smarts and leadership. Mike’s reputation has mostly been born from his win/loss record and his player-friendly atmosphere.

I’ll give a few anecdotal examples:

-Greg Jennings who played for McCarthy for years has staunchly defended him after his firing in GB. But his defense has never been about McCarthy’s advanced schematic knowledge or presence, but more about soft skills like listening to his players and assistants. Players who’ve played for Payton such as Jonathan Vilma start by calling him a genius or guru and go into him being a real confidence-boosting leader. I find all the former player analysis of Payton to be much more substance based than McCarthy’s.

-Mike has been on record saying he doesn’t believe in motion. Mike is our head coach and we still don’t even know what he does lol. Kellen calls plays on O and Quinn on D. Tangibly, what’s Mike’s value? Yes we are winning so he deserves credit for sure. But what actually can you say he does? This has never even remotely been a question with Payton.

-McCarthy’s first choice for DC was Mike Nolan lmao. Payton’s is Vic Fangio. Mike held on till the end with senile Dom Capers, Payton hired Dennis Allen who annually had a top flight D. One shows the propensity to stay with buddies and the other shows a propensity for bringing in real coaching talent. Just a small example of the difference in sharpness between the two.

-Look at all the negative things said about Mike his last 4-5 years. Laziness, low IQ, lack of attention to details, and a stale outdated scheme have all been criticisms of McCarthy. Payton’s criticisms have been about being an overbearing and overly competitive guy who can suck the air out of the room. Payton has never ever been criticized for a lack of football intelligence or coaching ability. Just looking at what folks in the league say negatively about both, it’s quite clear who’s the better coach. Give me the A-hole who’s an offensive guru over the guy who you can’t quite tell me what he does well. The things that Mike has been knocked for will never ever be said about Payton.

-Lastly, would anyone, absolutely anyone, trade a first round pick for Mike McCarthy’s services? Not a chance. Multiple teams are more than willing to do so for Payton. Mike was available and the league wasn’t drooling to hire him and he wasn’t seen by anyone as the top option in the coaching cycle. Payton is by far seen as the top option for any opening. Does that not tell y’all something? Don’t you think teams would look at the W/L record and treat them the same like y’all are saying they are? The league knows infinitely more about the coaches than we do, and their actions speak quite clearly.

At some point we have to understand that as fans we only know the W/L record. NFL players, owners, and execs know a lot more about who each guy really is as a coach. When one is widely regarded as a top 5 HC and teams are more than willing to trade draft capital for them and the other is widely regarded as “meh” by the folks who do the hiring and playing, isn’t it quite simple to see who’s got the goods and who doesn’t?

I like Mike, he’s the best coach we’ve had since Parcells. But he’s still a 10-15 range HC, good but no one today thinks he’s an elite HC. Payton was widely regarded as a top 5 HC when he stepped down just a year ago. Just looking at the win/loss record and seeing similar numbers doesn’t make them the same.

We all know where these two guys fall on the coaching ladder, let’s not fool ourselves by looking at the W/L record and claiming they are the same guy. I was going to make a thread myself about this but since we been winning I didn’t feel the need to rain on the parade. But had to let it be known here.

Such a great post. Multiple likes here. The tired narrative of they're the same since the w/l record with HOF QB is the same is lazy.

Appreciate your indepth opinion here of which I agree with wholeheartedly.

 

[817Gill]

Such a great post. Multiple likes here. The tired narrative of they're the same since the w/l record with HOF QB is the same is lazy.

Appreciate your indepth opinion here of which I agree with wholeheartedly.

Thank you! Winning and losing games in the NFL doesn’t come down to one person or player. So many factors involved that measuring a coach by solely W/L record misses a lot of details and insight.

All it takes is for you to look at how they are both regarded, how they were sought after when available, and their criticism and praises. To think that the league is off-base with their analysis and us as fans looking at a W/L record can accurately say they are the same guy is nuts.

 

[Gangsta Spanksta]

If big mac ever drops his notepad with his top secret game plan on it and has to pick it up, then we're doomed. T.T

 

[JW82]

Here’s the thing Bullet, IMO if you were to put these guys on any other franchise, its a coin toss. BUT the question for me is which one is better equipped to win in spite of a meddling, undermining cancer of a GM/Owner? I feel Peyton would be. But I'm rooting for big Mike.

QUOTE="Bobhaze, post: 12442184, member: 40028"]I’m going to say it right up front- I don’t understand why so many Cowboys fans act as if Sean Payton is the next HC in Dallas because he’s “special”. McCarthy’s resume is almost identical, even better in some areas, AND- what’s he’s done the last two years is very impressive.

Yes, Big Mac needs to win some playoff games for sure. But IMO, he deserves a lot more credit than he gets around here.

So let’s look at resumes of McCarthy vs Payton:
McCARTHY

• AGE: 59
• Regular Season Record- 154-96-2 (.615)
• Record at Dallas- 29-19 (.604)
• Playoff Record- 10-9 (.526)
• Road playoff Record: 5-4
• SB titles: 1

PAYTON

• AGE: 58
• Regular Season Record- 152-89-0 (.631)
• Playoff Record- 9-8 (.529)
• Road Playoff Record: 1-5
• SB Titles: 1

Sorry, I just don’t get the Sean Payton as savior thinking. The resumes are almost the same. But- Big Mac has 5 ROAD PLAYOFF WINS TO PAYTON’S 1.

Barring a collapse in the next month, Mike McCarthy is back next year. And should be.[/QUOTE]

 

[75boyz]

Thank you! Winning and losing games in the NFL doesn’t come down to one person or player. So many factors involved that measuring a coach by solely W/L record misses a lot of details and insight.

All it takes is for you to look at how they are both regarded, how they were sought after when available, and their criticism and praises. To think that the league is off-base with their analysis and us as fans looking at a W/L record can accurately say they are the same guy is nuts.

Yep, absolutely my friend. Not used to others going past the surface of an OP topic and discussing the big picture and finer details of that subject.

I welcome it.

 

[817Gill]

Yep, absolutely my friend. Not used to others going past the surface of an OP topic and discussing the big picture and finer details of that subject.

I welcome it.

Anytime 75! I like your style brotha