Mediocrity vs. change

[visionary]

Lots of bad teams change coaches and GMs regularly and stay bad.
The Eagles have managed to win 1 year... and to do it they brought back Andy Reid's offense, lol.

The Eagles tried massive change with Chip Kelly. That didn't work at all so they reverted to the old system of Reid.

How many NFL teams in the FA era have employed the same HC and he has won a SB with the same team after not doing so in the first 5-7 years?

Answer: none

Yes, making a change MAY or may not improve things, it is quite clear however that not making a change WILL NOT improve things substantially

Garrett is who he is
A HC who is not innovative and is a spineless jelly fish when it comes to discipline and accountability
He cannot take a team to the SB as HC

 

[atlantacowboy]

To some degree I would concur with Jerry that it is all or at least mostly about the talent . If you amass more than the other team it provides you an advantage .

Great coaching comes in when you need to build a team or try to make the most of a team with holes in talent.

But it’s why my campaign in trying to overcome Jerry and Jason has been about more elite talent in the key positions because this is a talent driven league.

Disagree. Since 1996, you cannot stack talent for long and Jerry is sure no guru stockpiling it on draft day. Coaching and scheme are now more important than ever. We had something like 13 pro bowlers in 2007........ at least 10 in 2014. So, it is not all about stacking talent particularly in January. On paper, the Patriots had no business being in the super bowl. No pro bowlers on defense........ only Brady on the offense (forget the blocking full back which shouldn't even be a pro bowl position ) in NE, its all about coaching.

 

[visionary]

12-4 and 13-3 are "proven" success. The Joneses see that as proof that Dallas is only a play or two away from being Super Bowl champions. I believe they are buying into fool's gold. These other coaches have shown that if you don't strike gold within the first five years, then it's time to start digging somewhere else.

No they're not
Proven success is NFCCG or SB
regular season victory with no post season success just means you can't string together 3-4 wins against the better teams in the NFL
Not sure why that is so hard to understand

 

[Diehardblues]

The Eagles basically have 2 starting NFL QB’s. That’s a competitive advantage.

But that’s what it takes. Whenever a team surges like we did in 2016 it’s about a surge in talent usually. Pederson deserves some credit but Wentz was on his way to earning MVP before he went down. And then Foles steps in winning SB MVP. Coaching helps but that’s about talent emerging.

 

[Roadtrip635]

I've mentioned this multiple times.

Of the, now, 32 coaches that have won a Super Bowl, 28 have won that SB within the first 5 years of being the HC of that team. Pederson continued that trend winning a SB in Year 2. The four who took longer were:

Noll - But he coached in an AFC Champ game in his 4th year and won SBs in Years 6 and Years 7.

Madden - He coached in an AFL Champ Game and two AFC Champ games in his first 5 years in Oakland. Won a SB in Year 8.

Landry - He took over a new franchise and had to build the team from scratch. Was coaching in a NFL Champ game in Year 7.

Cowher - Took him the longest to win a SB but he coached in two AFC Champ games and one SB in his first 5 years.

If Jason Garrett goes on to win a SB, he will be the first coach in this history of the NFL that won a SB without at least coaching in a conference title game in his first 5 years on the job.

 

[Diehardblues]

Disagree. Since 1996, you cannot stack talent for long and Jerry is sure no guru stockpiling it on draft day. Coaching and scheme are now more important than ever. We had something like 13 pro bowlers in 2007........ at least 10 in 2014. So, it is not all about stacking talent particularly in January. On paper, the Patriots had no business being in the super bowl. No pro bowlers on defense........ only Brady on the offense (forget the blocking full back which shouldn't even be a pro bowl position ) in NE, its all about coaching.

I’d agree to a point. Your right. Cap doesn’t allow you to retain your talent but you can still amass it.

And the Patriots had the best QB who elevated all around him. We saw how Romo elevated around him but he wasn’t as great as Brady nor had the support on defense or coaching staff .

Yes , we had 13 Pro Bowlers in 2007 and that along with 2014 were Windows we could have broke thru. But we weren’t able to maintain that influx of talent or keep our QB healthy to sustain consistency over time providing more opportunities to get over the hump.

The Patriots went what about 10 years without winning a SB so even with the best QB/ HC tandem in history they struggled too maintaining without as much talent .

 

[gimmesix]

How many NFL teams in the FA era have employed the same HC and he has won a SB with the same team after not doing so in the first 5-7 years?

Answer: none

Yes, making a change MAY or may not improve things, it is quite clear however that not making a change WILL NOT improve things substantially

This is really the whole point of this thread. There's a clear pattern when it comes to winning Super Bowls and we're not following that pattern. We seem to be following the Landry pattern, but Landry had to take a team from scratch and mold it into one of the best of all time.

 

[gimmesix]

No they're not
Proven success is NFCCG or SB
regular season victory with no post season success just means you can't string together 3-4 wins against the better teams in the NFL
Not sure why that is so hard to understand

I didn't say that I agree that those records are proven success. I said the Joneses see it as validation for sticking with Garrett. For them, it shows that the team is just a play or two away.

As I've said from the start of this thread, I believe that is faulty. It doesn't fit the Super Bowl-winning pattern. If Garrett hasn't done it by now, then there's no reason to expect him to ever be able to do it.

 

[jterrell]

I agree, and that could be the case here. However, that's no reason to ignore the pattern.

I would have fired Garrett years ago and I liked Wade more.

But I'm not firing Garrett either of the last two seasons.
I know it hurts Cowboys fan feelings but reality is Garrett wasn't a bad coach either of the last two years.

Dallas did what I consider the only sane thing and saw this team without Romo win 4 games.
They knew they had to TOTALLY rebuild this roster and went about doing so with a plan to build through the draft and use supplemental picks to aid the recovery.
They did not go crazy and sell out when the plan worked far better than imagined.
They stayed he course and once again built a cache of draft picks that is truly enviable and a young roster that is already top 10 in talent when no one is suspended.

Now can they supplement that plan with final push to get over the top? That we've not seem here since 1995 so it's very reasonable to believe they can not.. BUT it's very unreasonable to not recognize that they are closer to a yearly title contender than they have been in decades. This team isn't about a 30+ year old hall of famer but instead a bunch of ascending players in their 20s.

 

[Diehardblues]

This is really the whole point of this thread. There's a clear pattern when it comes to winning Super Bowls and we're not following that pattern. We seem to be following the Landry pattern, but Landry had to take a team from scratch and mold it into one of the best of all time.

Were up against obstacles most teams don’t have with a meddling owner posing as GM with a puppet as HC who is limited with his control and most of all our owner is unwilling to bring in a HC who could recieve more of the limelight and credit if we did have success.

The only way to have a chance at overcoming is an influx of elite talent which doesn’t assure we can overcome but just gives us a better shot,

 

[jterrell]

Did they make the playoffs by doing it?

No doubt you'll tell me that we'll be better off in the future but that's part of the problem.
In Dallas the future is always some years off.

No offense but this is the kind of goofy fan rhetoric that makes us all a little dumber.

We have ZERO idea if swapping out the CBs made us better or worse this year OTHER than the fact PFF Rated our kiddie DBs better than the vets we let go.

In fact it could easily be argued we should have swapped out the TE and WRs too.

Improving is never a bad idea. Getting both younger and better is nirvana.
Bill Parcells used to say each year you give the edge to the young guy. An older guy has to kick his butt to hold the job.
Carr and Mo weren't kicking butt.

 

[Roadtrip635]

12-4 and 13-3 are "proven" success. The Joneses see that as proof that Dallas is only a play or two away from being Super Bowl champions. I believe they are buying into fool's gold. These other coaches have shown that if you don't strike gold within the first five years, then it's time to start digging somewhere else.

Basically we have another Marv Lewis on our hands. An average coach that wins just often enough to think there's some hope, but ultimately won't ever get there. The owner is comfortable with him and is happy with the stability.

 

[atlantacowboy]

I’d agree to a point. Your right. Cap doesn’t allow you to retain your talent but you can still amass it.

And the Patriots had the best QB who elevated all around him. We saw how Romo elevated around him but he wasn’t as great as Brady nor had the support on defense or coaching staff .

Yes , we had 13 Pro Bowlers in 2007 and that along with 2014 were Windows we could have broke thru. But we weren’t able to maintain that influx of talent or keep our QB healthy to sustain consistency over time providing more opportunities to get over the hump.

We didn't break through b/c we got out coached in those playoff games. Garret's biggest flaw as a coach is that he literally does not beleive in major halftime adjustments. In his own words, he said that he believes the preparation he did for the game during the week gives the team the best chances to win..............(and the heck with what is actually transpiring on the field.) Contrast that to what NE does after halftime. I use them b/c no team makes better halftime adjustments. Jimmy Johnson did the same when he was here. Landry was another master adjuster at halftime. Sure you need a baseline of talent to win these days ........and Dallas has rarely lacked it.

 

[Plankton]

It wasn't a good decision for the season just gone.
It might be a good decision for future seasons, but by then there'll be another whole in the dam.

The team's defensive passer rating in 2017 (94.6) was 0.4 different than it was in 2016 (94.2). The secondary change was not the reason why this team failed to make the playoffs this past season. Not even in the first five reasons.

 

[gimmesix]

Now can they supplement that plan with final push to get over the top? That we've not seem here since 1995 so it's very reasonable to believe they can not.. BUT it's very unreasonable to not recognize that they are closer to a yearly title contender than they have been in decades. This team isn't about a 30+ year old hall of famer but instead a bunch of ascending players in their 20s.

Before I would have agreed with you. In fact, it's why I haven't been on board with getting rid of Garrett in the past. He's done some good things, so my thought process was "Give him time." My eyes have been opened now to the fact that his process isn't how the NFL works. This is a league where you find the right coach to work with and supplement the talent that you have. If you find that guy, you'll see the results.

Now, the hard part is finding that guy. Some teams have spend decades looking for him. However, not finding him isn't reason to settle for mediocrity.

 

[atlantacowboy]

I think Jerry's feeling about head coaching shifted after Campo, which is why he brought Parcells in. I don't believe that he wanted to move on from Parcells, and I believe he had to move on from Phillips and was willing to pull the plug quickly because he had his handpicked "future" already on the team. I believe that Jones married himself to the idea that stability leads to championships, and as long as Garrett is able to mix in a few playoff seasons, he'll stay married to it.

I believe the Super Bowl success of other teams show that this is a very faulty philosophy.

I mostly agree. However I think Jerry's motivation for hiring Parcels were as much financial as anything. The team was stuck in the midst of 5-11 seasons, and he was trying to get funding for a new stadium. He had no choice but to hire a HOF caliber HC and get out of his way..........."shopping for the groceries" was part of what parcels demanded. But, you saw how long that lasted. IMO, and I can only read between the lines, Jerry drove parcels out of Dallas with his locker room meddling and roster meddling..........Bill was at an age and point of his career when he could say "F-it, I don't need this anymore" and he walked away for a position in Miami. You can't tell me that with as much talent as he left in Dallas that he didn't want to coach it and try one more time.......and Miami was a more attractive job? It just doesn't make sense. Jerry got his stadium funding and reverted back to the same guy he's been since Jimmy left town.

 

[gimmesix]

Were up against obstacles most teams don’t have with a meddling owner posing as GM with a puppet as HC who is limited with his control and most of all our owner is unwilling to bring in a HC who could recieve more of the limelight and credit if we did have success.

The only way to have a chance at overcoming is an influx of elite talent which doesn’t assure we can overcome but just gives us a better shot,

Again, this flies in the face of Jerry hiring Parcells. A lot of fans seem to be locked on Jerry of 22 years ago when he made his 500 coaches comment. Are you the same as you were 22 years ago? Time and circumstances have changed Jerry, not to the point where he doesn't want to be GM (that's one of the primary reasons he bought the team), but to the point where he's made a lot of concessions and changes as GM that he wouldn't have made when he started out.

 

[Diehardblues]

We didn't break through b/c we got out coached in those playoff games. Garret's biggest flaw as a coach is that he literally does not beleive in major halftime adjustments. In his own words, he said that he believes the preparation he did for the game during the week gives the team the best chances to win..............(and the heck with what is actually transpiring on the field.) Contrast that to what NE does after halftime. I use them b/c no team makes better halftime adjustments. Jimmy Johnson did the same when he was here. Landry was another master adjuster at halftime. Sure you need a baseline of talent to win these days ........and Dallas has rarely lacked it.

Garrett isn’t the only coach here that has struggled in the playoffs . Wade , Chan and Bill did too.

This again is why I stress in needing more elite talent because we have all of these obstacles to overcome . We can’t rely on our coaching staff to make the difference .

The sooner we accept like we have accepted the obstacles with Jerry the sooner we can look to upgrade the positions vital to have more elite talent with. That’s our best hope with the current situation.

Y’all can focus on firing the coach but it appears wasted effort at this time Regardless if we agree that’s the change needed . I’m trying to figure out what pieces might help us.

If 2014 and 2016 are a model under Garrett we saw how close we came to breaking thru to at least a championship appearance . And we saw whatever weaknesses were on the field .

That gives us something to build on IMO. It would be different if we hadn’t sniffed the playoffs or were blown out in them.

 

[atlantacowboy]

Garrett isn’t the only coach here that has struggled in the playoffs . Wade , Chan and Bill did too.

This again is why I stress in needing more elite talent because we have all of these obstacles to overcome . We can’t rely on our coaching staff to make the difference .

The sooner we accept like we have accepted the obstacles with Jerry the sooner we can look to upgrade the positions vital to have more elite talent with. That’s our best hope with the current situation.

Y’all can focus on firing the coach but it appears wasted effort at this time . I’m trying to figure out what pieces might help us.

If 2014 and 2016 are a model under Garrett we saw how close we came to breaking thru to at least a championship appearance . And we saw whatviur wraknesses were on the field . That gives us something to build on IMO. It would be different if we hadn’t sniffed the playoffs or were blown out in them.

Parcels was different. He was rebuilding a franchise devoid of talent and with no QB. He left the team in far better position than he found it. Garret and Wade inherited loaded teams. Campo was just a bus driver. That was a bad hire made b/c Jerry does not respect the head coaching position.

 

[Diehardblues]

Again, this flies in the face of Jerry hiring Parcells. A lot of fans seem to be locked on Jerry of 22 years ago when he made his 500 coaches comment. Are you the same as you were 22 years ago? Time and circumstances have changed Jerry, not to the point where he doesn't want to be GM (that's one of the primary reasons he bought the team), but to the point where he's made a lot of concessions and changes as GM that he wouldn't have made when he started out.

I’d agree he’s made some changes but not enough.