Mediocrity vs. change

[gimmesix]

Bill also said “ you have to convince Jerry to go against his instincts”.

So was he lying about this also? Or do you guys just pick and choose where he's lying?

 

[gimmesix]

He also said that Jerry has no football philosophy. He also said that 6 months after he leaves, you will never know that I was there.

I don't disagree with this. All this other stuff assumes that Parcells wasn't telling the truth. This is the man who famously said when he left New England, “If they want you to cook the dinner, at least they ought to let you shop for some of the groceries.” I don't think he would mince words if he left because of Jones.

This has typically turned into a thread focusing on something that will not change (Jones being GM) instead of something that can (Garrett being coach). Unfortunately, it's probably going to take our team tanking for a couple of years before Jones would make that move.

I don't understand why fans want to focus on Jones when he's not going anywhere as owner/GM unless he dies. It's wasted energy. You could say this thread is wasted energy as well, but the purpose of it is to show that it doesn't take this long for coaches to show if they are Super.

 

[Diehardblues]

So was he lying about this also? Or do you guys just pick and choose where he's lying?

Lying about what?

 

[Diehardblues]

Some of you are just silly on your desire to blame Jerry for everything. Hey, let's not believe the man because obviously if he's saying nice things about Jerry he must be lying.

Bill usually didn’t have anything negative to say about Jerry. Sometimes it’s not necessary. Actions speak for themselves. We can read between the lines. But if you watched all the press conferences I think you could pick up on a frustration beginning to build with Bill over the meddling.

 

[Diehardblues]

I don't disagree with this. All this other stuff assumes that Parcells wasn't telling the truth. This is the man who famously said when he left New England, “If they want you to cook the dinner, at least they ought to let you shop for some of the groceries.” I don't think he would mince words if he left because of Jones.

This has typically turned into a thread focusing on something that will not change (Jones being GM) instead of something that can (Garrett being coach). Unfortunately, it's probably going to take our team tanking for a couple of years before Jones would make that move.

I don't understand why fans want to focus on Jones when he's not going anywhere as owner/GM unless he dies. It's wasted energy. You could say this thread is wasted energy as well, but the purpose of it is to show that it doesn't take this long for coaches to show if they are Super.

Every argument or campaign about Garrett must lead to the root of the problem. Why is Garrett even here to begin with and why has Jerry gone to such extremes to retain him interchanging pieces around him?

I think we can all agree we need a greater coach. But the bigger issue is will Jerry allow one and if he did what legit prospect would be willing to come here? This is why any coaching argument will always end up with Jerry. Talk about wasted energy.

 

[gimmesix]

Every argument or campaign about Garrett must lead to the root of the problem. Why is Garrett even here to begin with and why has Jerry gone to such extremes to retain him interchanging pieces around him?

I think we can all agree we need a greater coach. But the bigger issue is will Jerry allow one and if he did what legit prospect would be willing to come here? This is why any coaching argument will always end up with Jerry. Talk about wasted energy.

Chan Gailey was considered a legitimate prospect when we brought him in. Parcells certainly was a legitimate coach. And Jerry has shown he won't tolerate losing too long. Campo was a practically a family member like Garrett yet Jerry still cut the strings. The problem with Garrett is that he's given Jerry just enough to stick around, because the Joneses aren't looking at the right thing.

If I could replace Jerry Jones as GM, you can bet I would do that in a minute. Since I can't, the one thing I can hope is that he eventually recognizes that Garrett doesn't fit this pattern and tries to find someone who will. As I said, I've excused Garrett in the past based on the same reasoning, he's led us to 12-4 and 13-3 records. Looking at that in context of the Super Bowl winners, those records mean nothing. Either a coach can do it in the first five years or he can't, with very few exceptions.

 

[atlantacowboy]

Some of you are just silly on your desire to blame Jerry for everything. Hey, let's not believe the man because obviously if he's saying nice things about Jerry he must be lying.

What nice things are you referring to? Bill said you had to "convince Jerry to go against his instincts". You think Jerry thought that was a compliment?

Here is what Jerry said about Parcels in 2010:

"Bill's not worth a [expletive]," the video shows Jones saying. After some back-and-forth with an unidentified man off-camera, the video continues with Jones saying, " ... to get this [expletive] stadium, I needed to bring his [butt] in."

You are nieve about the nature of their relationship. Go read a little.......

 

[xwalker]

It wasn't a good decision for the season just gone.
It might be a good decision for future seasons, but by then there'll be another whole in the dam.

The young players were better than the previous players this season.

Without injury issues it would have been more obvious.

The players that departed were not very good when they were here.

Some improved with new teams due to better players around them.

Church is a good example. His limited range was a huge problem in Dallas because Carr and Hitchens also had limited range. In Jax both CBs are very highly rated and their WLB has extreme range in coverage.

Keeping those players is the how Jerry would have done it in the past. The fact the team was willing to move on is a good sign of better management.

 

[Asklesko]

Our ambitions are set very low. Jones would rather tread water than win.

 

[GORICO]

Jerry and Stephen Jones believe the way to success lies in stability at the head coaching position. It's somewhat understandable that they feel that way considering the lack of success overall we had switching from Gailey to Campo to Parcells to Phillips to Garrett.

But the Eagles are the latest team to show that change can be a good thing, that you've got to keep searching until you find a coach that has "it" or hits on the right formula for temporary success at the least. Pederson took his team to a Super Bowl championship in his second year as a head coach. The previous year Dan Quinn did the same for the Falcons.

It took Ron Rivera a little more time in Carolina to get the Panthers to the Super Bowl in 2015 (five years) but his opponent, Gary Kubiak, got Denver there his first year.

Even Jimmy Johnson had us trending up and then Super Bowl champions within four years. However, that was before free agency and the salary cap took hold, which I think makes it easier for coaches to turn a team around quickly. And if you look at Bill Belichick, his long-term success in New England began with winning a Super Bowl in his second year as coach there.

So what does this mean for Dallas? Eight years is more than enough time to see that the process isn't what wins championships. It's finding a coach who can do the most with the talent you have on the team now; one with a vision that adding a few key pieces can complete.

Jerry needs to learn from his past. When he came here, he cast aside a coach who is much better than Garrett will ever be but whose time had come to bring in a fresh, new approach. That led to three Super Bowl victories in four years. We might not catch lightning in a bottle again, but that certainly doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

This comes from someone who has not been against Garrett as a head coach. The trend is just too hard to ignore even going back beyond the coaches I mentioned. There's Pete Carroll (it took four years in Seattle), John Fox (two years in Carolina, three years in Denver), John Harbaugh (five years in Baltimore, but AFC Championship Game in first year), Jim Harbaugh (two years in San Francisco), Tom Coughlin (four years in New York), Mike McCarthy (five years in Green Bay, but NFC Championship Game in second year), Mike Tomlin (two years), Sean Payton (four years in New Orleans, but NFC Championship Game in first year) and Jim Caldwell (first year with Indianapolis). That's your Super Bowl coaches since 2010, with few outside of Belichick having sustained Super Bowl success.

Dear mr Gimmesix--- I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment---but i personally do not think Jerry Jones is sold out to win like the 90's

consider Jerry turned a 180 million dollar investment ( purchase cost of cowboys in 1989 ) into 4 billion..the highest value sporting team in the
world....and his recipe was not about trying to win superbowls...it is...point to yester-years winners and develop a culture of mediocrity with mediocre coaches and keep saying "we are really close"....it made him billions of dollars and is making him more billions...so Jerry will not
upset that apple cart....this whole process mentality is not about striving to win superbowls but to continue to build his empire....Jerry is committed to Cowboys staying in the news and being relevant....and Jones has not had to win football games to win at the bottom line

 

[Buzzbait]

The Eagles basically have 2 starting NFL QB’s. That’s a competitive advantage.

But that’s what it takes. Whenever a team surges like we did in 2016 it’s about a surge in talent usually. Pederson deserves some credit but Wentz was on his way to earning MVP before he went down. And then Foles steps in winning SB MVP.
Coaching helps but that’s about talent emerging.

That "surge in talent" is great, but if you don't know how to use it you're wasting that talent and your time, because as soon as you hit a team that DOES know how to use it, you're going down.

 

[IrishAnto]

The young players were better than the previous players this season.

Without injury issues it would have been more obvious.

The players that departed were not very good when they were here.

Some improved with new teams due to better players around them.

Church is a good example. His limited range was a huge problem in Dallas because Carr and Hitchens also had limited range. In Jax both CBs are very highly rated and their WLB has extreme range in coverage.

Keeping those players is the how Jerry would have done it in the past. The fact the team was willing to move on is a good sign of better management.

Pity the good signs don’t translate into results.

 

[TheDude]

As I've said elsewhere, the problem has less to do with Garrett and more to do with J&S Jones.

Belichick failed in Cleveland.

Was it because hep was a bad coach in the 90's or was it more to do with the Brown's organization?

I know where I place the blame.

And this post is not an endorsement of J.G.

As much as I have stated JG was unqualified since 2007 and have never liked him nor his style, Jerry ad Stephen are the ultimate culpable ones here.

You just look at Howard Roseman and how he erased the Chip Kelly debacle, rebuilt the team, flipped picks for a franchise QB and had depth to withstand the loss of a LT, and this franchise warts are now clear for everyone. The Cowboys will never win anything of significance as long as the Jones continue with their "structure" and "process"

 

[gimmesix]

Dear mr Gimmesix--- I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment---but i personally do not think Jerry Jones is sold out to win like the 90's

consider Jerry turned a 180 million dollar investment ( purchase cost of cowboys in 1989 ) into 4 billion..the highest value sporting team in the
world....and his recipe was not about trying to win superbowls...it is...point to yester-years winners and develop a culture of mediocrity with mediocre coaches and keep saying "we are really close"....it made him billions of dollars and is making him more billions...so Jerry will not
upset that apple cart....this whole process mentality is not about striving to win superbowls but to continue to build his empire....Jerry is committed to Cowboys staying in the news and being relevant....and Jones has not had to win football games to win at the bottom line

That's possible with Jones. He's had years of losing to get used to it.

I don't like to assume his motivation, though. Obviously, making money is important to him, but I can't say winning still isn't important to him as well.

I do have trouble believing that he made Garrett his head coach simply because he wants a yes man, like some seem to believe. He seems to sincerely believe that Garrett can be the next Landry.

I also don't see the free agent strategy Dallas is using being a product of Jones not caring about winning. The team shifted after Carr didn't pan out to be worth the money he was being paid. The shift was more about Jerry being reactionary as we've seen in the past. Generally, he tends to overreact instead of finding a balance.

I do agree with your statement that Jones has not had to win football games to win at the bottom line, and that does make it easier to accept the situation instead of being completely driven to change it. If his pocket was suffering from losing, it would have to increase the drive to win to some extent at least.

 

[gimmesix]

As much as I have stated JG was unqualified since 2007 and have never liked him nor his style, Jerry ad Stephen are the ultimate culpable ones here.

You just look at Howard Roseman and how he erased the Chip Kelly debacle, rebuilt the team, flipped picks for a franchise QB and had depth to withstand the loss of a LT, and this franchise warts are now clear for everyone. The Cowboys will never win anything of significance as long as the Jones continue with their "structure" and "process"

The problem again is that there's nothing that can be done about Jerry and Stephen. They are what they are and they are going to keep on doing things their way as long as they own the franchise.

So the only hope this team has is that the Joneses stumble across a coach who can overcome them, one with a strong enough voice like Parcells who can get them to do at least some things his way. We all know that Jimmy Johnson was the de facto GM when he was here. The Herschel Walker trade was his doing. The stockpiling of picks was his doing. The personnel decisions were his doing.

It's going to take a strong-willed coach to win here. Now, some believe the Joneses wouldn't bring one in, but I think the hiring of Parcells shows that they will, but it's going to have to be someone they completely respect. I had hoped at one point that Mike Holmgren would end up being our head coach because from everything I've read he had a good relationship with the Joneses. Now, I don't think Holmgren is the greatest personnel man, but I think he would have had a strong enough voice while being a very good head coach. I think we need someone like that to give the Joneses direction instead of someone like Garrett who follows the Joneses' lead.

 

[GORICO]

That's possible with Jones. He's had years of losing to get used to it.

I don't like to assume his motivation, though. Obviously, making money is important to him, but I can't say winning still isn't important to him as well.

I do have trouble believing that he made Garrett his head coach simply because he wants a yes man, like some seem to believe. He seems to sincerely believe that Garrett can be the next Landry.

I also don't see the free agent strategy Dallas is using being a product of Jones not caring about winning. The team shifted after Carr didn't pan out to be worth the money he was being paid. The shift was more about Jerry being reactionary as we've seen in the past. Generally, he tends to overreact instead of finding a balance.

I do agree with your statement that Jones has not had to win football games to win at the bottom line, and that does make it easier to accept the situation instead of being completely driven to change it. If his pocket was suffering from losing, it would have to increase the drive to win to some extent at least.

gimmesix---- well i do agree my post to you was more reactionary than completely objective....i guess my motivation comes from the way we lost 4-5 games this year....where we played "inept"..in fact the 3 game stretch right after Zeke was suspended was by far the worst losing 3 game stretch in cowboy 58 year history...yes they had lost 3 games in a row before but not by that margin....and then the seahawk game was the last straw....it was the 3rd time this year we were 1st and goal to go at the 2 and the opposition had yet to stop Zeke in the game...and do we obviously run Zeke?...nope...3 miserable failed pass attempts..and we come up short...which by the way that was Garretts 4th elimination game as cowboy coach and 0-4 is his record...i understand even if we had won the game we would not have made it to playoffs...but we did not know that at the time..and over 90% of the time if you are 10-6 you are going to the playoffs....and the receiving corps were all down this year...and they blame the receivers?...when a whole unit is down it aint the players its the coaches...so tired of Garretts hypocrisy...he preaches "we hold each other accountable"...but this year cowboys fire the "underling" coaches who were just following orders from the top and then give more power to the inept offensive coordinator who was responsible for the failuire?...how is that accountability?....

 

[Diehardblues]

The problem again is that there's nothing that can be done about Jerry and Stephen. They are what they are and they are going to keep on doing things their way as long as they own the franchise.

So the only hope this team has is that the Joneses stumble across a coach who can overcome them, one with a strong enough voice like Parcells who can get them to do at least some things his way. We all know that Jimmy Johnson was the de facto GM when he was here. The Herschel Walker trade was his doing. The stockpiling of picks was his doing. The personnel decisions were his doing.

It's going to take a strong-willed coach to win here. Now, some believe the Joneses wouldn't bring one in, but I think the hiring of Parcells shows that they will, but it's going to have to be someone they completely respect. I had hoped at one point that Mike Holmgren would end up being our head coach because from everything I've read he had a good relationship with the Joneses. Now, I don't think Holmgren is the greatest personnel man, but I think he would have had a strong enough voice while being a very good head coach. I think we need someone like that to give the Joneses direction instead of someone like Garrett who follows the Joneses' lead.

I think most would agree. But no one has the answer.

And I’m not sure Jerry wants someone who’d recieve more credit?

 

[Doomsay]

I've mentioned this multiple times.

Of the, now, 32 coaches that have won a Super Bowl, 28 have won that SB within the first 5 years of being the HC of that team. Pederson continued that trend winning a SB in Year 2. The four who took longer were:

Noll - But he coached in an AFC Champ game in his 4th year and won SBs in Years 6 and Years 7.

Madden - He coached in an AFL Champ Game and two AFC Champ games in his first 5 years in Oakland. Won a SB in Year 8.

Landry - He took over a new franchise and had to build the team from scratch. Was coaching in a NFL Champ game in Year 7.

Cowher - Took him the longest to win a SB but he coached in two AFC Champ games and one SB in his first 5 years.

If Jason Garrett goes on to win a SB, he will be the first coach in this history of the NFL that won a SB without at least coaching in a conference title game in his first 5 years on the job.

He also inherited a franchise QB in his prime. More importantly, he isn't improving as a HC and has had more and more responsibility stripped away from him over time, not an "almost there" trajectory.

 

[gimmesix]

gimmesix---- well i do agree my post to you was more reactionary than completely objective....i guess my motivation comes from the way we lost 4-5 games this year....where we played "inept"..in fact the 3 game stretch right after Zeke was suspended was by far the worst losing 3 game stretch in cowboy 58 year history...yes they had lost 3 games in a row before but not by that margin....and then the seahawk game was the last straw....it was the 3rd time this year we were 1st and goal to go at the 2 and the opposition had yet to stop Zeke in the game...and do we obviously run Zeke?...nope...3 miserable failed pass attempts..and we come up short...which by the way that was Garretts 4th elimination game as cowboy coach and 0-4 is his record...i understand even if we had won the game we would not have made it to playoffs...but we did not know that at the time..and over 90% of the time if you are 10-6 you are going to the playoffs....and the receiving corps were all down this year...and they blame the receivers?...when a whole unit is down it aint the players its the coaches...so tired of Garretts hypocrisy...he preaches "we hold each other accountable"...but this year cowboys fire the "underling" coaches who were just following orders from the top and then give more power to the inept offensive coordinator who was responsible for the failuire?...how is that accountability?....

I'm sure the Joneses look at it from the standpoint that Garrett and Linehan produced a 13-3 record with a rookie QB the previous year so they deserve leeway. However, obviously some kind of change has to be made after those failures. I'm not saying that's right, but 2016 might have been the worse thing to happen to our team because it validated the Joneses' belief in Garrett, much like 2014 had.

So you've got, Linehan coming in as OC in 2014 and Dallas going 12-4 to win the East, winning a playoff game and conceivably coming within a bad call of getting to the championship game. Validation.

Then you have Romo getting hurt in 2015, Bryant also being hurt and pitiful backup QB play in a 4-12 season. Nice excuses to dismiss the failure.

That's followed by the 13-3 season with a rookie quarterback and rookie RB stepping in, ending when one of the greatest QBs of all time made a play to win a close game in the playoffs. Mucho validation.

And finally we have 9-7 for a season where we had to overcome our star RB being suspended, Dez playing injured, losing our star LT for a period of time, losing our star LB at times, etc. More nice excuses built in to keep the head coach, OC and even DC.

These things keep the Joneses focusing on those winning seasons and excuses for losing instead of what really matters ... almost all Super Bowl coaches take their team there within five years. Garrett hasn't even made a championship game in eight.

 

[GORICO]

I'm sure the Joneses look at it from the standpoint that Garrett and Linehan produced a 13-3 record with a rookie QB the previous year so they deserve leeway. However, obviously some kind of change has to be made after those failures. I'm not saying that's right, but 2016 might have been the worse thing to happen to our team because it validated the Joneses' belief in Garrett, much like 2014 had.

So you've got, Linehan coming in as OC in 2014 and Dallas going 12-4 to win the East, winning a playoff game and conceivably coming within a bad call of getting to the championship game. Validation.

Then you have Romo getting hurt in 2015, Bryant also being hurt and pitiful backup QB play in a 4-12 season. Nice excuses to dismiss the failure.

That's followed by the 13-3 season with a rookie quarterback and rookie RB stepping in, ending when one of the greatest QBs of all time made a play to win a close game in the playoffs. Mucho validation.

And finally we have 9-7 for a season where we had to overcome our star RB being suspended, Dez playing injured, losing our star LT for a period of time, losing our star LB at times, etc. More nice excuses built in to keep the head coach, OC and even DC.

These things keep the Joneses focusing on those winning seasons and excuses for losing instead of what really matters ... almost all Super Bowl coaches take their team there within five years. Garrett hasn't even made a championship game in eight.

gimmiesix----"BULLSEYE"