Micah the mistreated superstar

[Cowboys5217]

What exactly is your argument here? Explain the below numbers to me:

Cowboys OL holding: 14
Eagles OL holding: 4

Cowboys defensive holding: 14
Eagles defensive holding: 2

We have 28 holding calls to their 6.

Yeah, totally legit and nothing to see here....

Oh hey, they even out over time... except they don't.

 

[Mac_MaloneV1]

I'd dismiss it too when the "Martin problem" gets brought up. But did you forget that you're commenting in a thread that's trying to make the assertion that Parsons should have more holding calls on him because of his talent level? I mean, I hope that irony isn't lost on you.

So why wouldn't the logic also work the opposite way in that an OL with more All-Pro players would tend to get less holding calls on them than a team that has less All-Pro players on their line (with our All-Pro player literally getting called for less holds than the rest of the league, let alone just our O-Line, to bolster that theory himself)?

I said it doesn't account for the disparity, and talent level doesn't necessarily mean a player doesn't hold.

I literally said that players who lose reps are going to get more exposed.

 

[Walker]

The Cowboys need to put the tape together and send it over to the league for review of all the uncalled holding penalties so they can have a chat with the officials to keep eyes open more.

 

[RonnieT24]

The Cowboys need to put the tape together and send it over to the league for review of all the uncalled holding penalties so they can have a chat with the officials to keep eyes open more.

The Cowboys have been doing this for years to n o avail. Occasionally the league will even issue an "apology" for a horrible game changing call.. which aint worth the breath used to utter it or the paper it was printed on.

 

[Captain43Crash]

Yeah I said random. Did I stutter.

You didn’t stutter, but your wrong.

 

[MarcusRock]

I said it doesn't account for the disparity, and talent level doesn't necessarily mean a player doesn't hold.

I literally said that players who lose reps are going to get more exposed.

So then the widespread assertion that Parsons should get more holding calls due to his talent level is also lacking, since his talent level isn't solely a product of the disparity people seem to think exists? But then why do they present his talent level as a reason for why he should have more holding calls? Interesting happenings!

 

[stilltheguru]

TJ Watt will be this year's DPOY. Dude always gets two sacks a game. Clean, unblocked paths to the QB. It's comical.

Yea it was funny seeing him unblocked at the qb and steelers fans hype it up like he's some magician.

 

[Pass2Run]

By the letter if the law they could call 2 or 3 different Holds on any given pass play....including when we're on offense and we're "holding" (by the rules book) the other teams pass rushers.

Sure....a robot ref might award Parsons 30 hold calls. But the robot refs would also award Bosa or Reddick 30 Holds when they are pass rushing us.

So we just have to decide if we want a game with 100 penalties...half of which will be on us.

That's what I'm always trying to explain to people as well. These calls are arbitrary. Therefore; biased.

 

[mattwill]

You are trying to revise history. I was around in those days and watched all the time. Those guys all drew flags when they were held.

All all your other excuses and bad rationalizations fly out the window any time these superstars play against Dallas as the holding calls DO get called against the Cowboys. Over the last 23 years Dallas has been called for the most penalties on average per year of any team other than Detroit who is tied with them.

Neither team has also ever had an 80 penalty or less season in that 23 year period. It doesn't "even out over time" as it should if "holding could be called on every play".

I agree with 5217’s point. There has been a significant shift in the NFL rules to consistently favor Offenses. The NFL does not see ”splash” defensive plays as “audience friendly.” They see more points on the scoreboard as being desired by their audiences. Avid fans like everyone here on Cowboys Zone understand how enjoyable a “splash” defensive play can be, but those plays do not add points to the game score unless they are a pick six or Leon Lett fumble recovery. The NFL is catering more and more to the female members of its audience, and that means less “drill down” and more “thrills”

We have to keep in mind that the NFLis not a sports league,it is a multinational entertainment network.

 

[mattwill]

That's what I'm always trying to explain to people as well. These calls are arbitrary. Therefore; biased.

Arbitrary doesn’t mean biased. It means random.

 

[mattwill]

The Cowboys have been doing this for years to n o avail. Occasionally the league will even issue an "apology" for a horrible game changing call.. which aint worth the breath used to utter it or the paper it was printed on.

Their arguments are sports arguments. They aren’t audience share and advertising revenue arguments. They are speaking a whole different language than the NFL speaks. The NFL stopped being a sports league several decades ago.

 

[Pantone282C]

I went to school with Danielle Hunter and dated his sister Frank.

Those female players are eating their Wheaties and steroids.

 

[RoboQB]

I went to school with Danielle Hunter and dated his sister Frank.

Yep, I remember her. Frank the Tank.
She was a lot of fun at parties.

 

[Pantone282C]

I went to school with Danielle Hunter and dated his sister Frank.

Danielle's inner child.

 

[HungryLion]

So then the widespread assertion that Parsons should get more holding calls due to his talent level is also lacking, since his talent level isn't solely a product of the disparity people seem to think exists? But then why do they present his talent level as a reason for why he should have more holding calls? Interesting happenings!

If you’re referring to my post. I was being tongue in cheek. I don’t think the refs actually give a handicap to OL trying to block him.

In regards to his talent though. I think a guy like Parsons is so incredibly hard to block, that he gets held, often. Because for many OL they would get beat even more often than they already do without holding.

It’s often said that holding can be called on every play. While not technically true I do think that holding happens far more often than it’s called in the NFL. So then the issue really becomes about when it’s called relative to the point in the game and the impact it has on the team being called.

I don’t know what the solution is to that problem. I don’t think anyone wants the refs calling holding all game long. That would make the game BRUTAL to watch.

 

[MarcusRock]

If you’re referring to my post. I was being tongue in cheek. I don’t think the refs actually give a handicap to OL trying to block him.

In regards to his talent though. I think a guy like Parsons is so incredibly hard to block, that he gets held, often. Because for many OL they would get beat even more often than they already do without holding.

It’s often said that holding can be called on every play. While not technically true I do think that holding happens far more often than it’s called in the NFL. So then the issue really becomes about when it’s called relative to the point in the game and the impact it has on the team being called.

I don’t know what the solution is to that problem. I don’t think anyone wants the refs calling holding all game long. That would make the game BRUTAL to watch.

No, wasn't referring to your post but just calling out a double standard. People were saying that the Eagles OL getting called for few holds was "curious" but I made the point that they're pretty talented with several All-Pros. So when told that basing the disparity between them and us solely on talent was "stupid" I asked how Zack Martin, our only All-Pro on the line, having next to no holding calls ever, fit into that take. This, of course, in a thread with people asserting that Parsons should get more calls because .... he's a superstar being so talented. So that assertion must be stupid too because if we're being consistent, his talent also doesn't account for the disparity of calls he's not getting, no? If Parsons is expected to get more holding calls then Philly's OLine should also be expected to have a lower number of holds called on them. People can't have it both ways.

 

[HungryLion]

No, wasn't referring to your post but just calling out a double standard. People were saying that the Eagles OL getting called for few holds was "curious" but I made the point that they're pretty talented with several All-Pros. So when told that basing the disparity between them and us solely on talent was "stupid" I asked how Zack Martin, our only All-Pro on the line, having next to no holding calls ever, fit into that take. This, of course, in a thread with people asserting that Parsons should get more calls because .... he's a superstar being so talented. So that assertion must be stupid too because if we're being consistent, his talent also doesn't account for the disparity of calls he's not getting, no? If Parsons is expected to get more holding calls then Philly's OLine should also be expected to have a lower number of holds called on them. People can't have it both ways.

Sure. I agree on that. I hate to say it but the eagles have several HoF players on their OL. Kelce and lane Johnson to be specific.

 

[Mac_MaloneV1]

So then the widespread assertion that Parsons should get more holding calls due to his talent level is also lacking, since his talent level isn't solely a product of the disparity people seem to think exists? But then why do they present his talent level as a reason for why he should have more holding calls? Interesting happenings!

Omg read what I'm saying lol.

Yes, he should get more calls because he is better. Yes, better OL hold less.

But there is a huge discrepancy from the Eagles to other teams in the league that is far beyond the gap in talent.

 

[RonnieT24]

Omg read what I'm saying lol.

Yes, he should get more calls because he is better. Yes, better OL hold less.

But there is a huge discrepancy from the Eagles to other teams in the league that is far beyond the gap in talent.

Exactly.. I have no trouble admitting that the Eagles line is better than ours.. But it absolutely is not 3-4 TIMES better. The fact that Lane Johnson has gone to the Trent Williams school of leaving before the snap and gets away with it 20-25 times a game tells me that he's not "better" he just gets away with more cheating. Same with Kelce and his head bobs and rocking. Even though he was flagged for it twice against Buffalo, I don't doubt for a second he has done it a hundred times this season without being called. Does that make him "better" than other centers? Or just better at cheating? I have no explanation as to why the refs have decided to favor the Eagles.. but to pretend they don't is simply being obtuse.

 

[MarcusRock]

Omg read what I'm saying lol.

Yes, he should get more calls because he is better. Yes, better OL hold less.

But there is a huge discrepancy from the Eagles to other teams in the league that is far beyond the gap in talent.

Except you didn't say that initially. What you said that I objected to was that basing the disparity on talent was "stupid" so I was just reminding you of the thread you're in that makes a case for Parsons having more holds against him based on his talent. If we're consistent, that too is stupid and you're actually arguing against Parsons' case as well. Now, I actually agree with you that you can't always base it solely on talent but it plays a major part largely because it bears the most tangible data. These hazy, "something is amiss" takes just don't do anything without comparative data. Same with the "I have seen ...." data.

I'm no expert on OLine play but I do know that having a stud in your line helps the guys around him. So when you have multiple studs I would think that has a multiplying effect across the whole line and then you have all sorts of options as an offense where you don't have to offer help all the time and can just run your program. Anyways, in search of the hard data, is there another line in the league with multiple All-Pros on it and what do their numbers look like? Even that's not the whole story because how do their non-All-Pros compare to the Eagles' non-All-Pros?

Not a simple thing, absolutely, but you can't make a case against talent producing numbers in a thread whose premise is that talent should produce numbers. That's what I was saying.