Mickey and Broaddus fighting over Garrett again

TheDude

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  1. With the exception of the last two minutes of the first half and the last five minutes of the second half, the game clock will be restarted following a kickoff return, a player going out of bounds on a play from scrimmage, or after declined penalties when appropriate on the referee’s signal.
http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/timing

Did the clock stop Or are you again making stuff up? 1st and 5 took place after the penalty and the play was run at 11:31. Now does it take 33 sec to run 15 yards or was the play clock started after the ball was spotted? Same thing happened the next play, because another penalty happened and the following play took place at 11:08. Again, did it take 23 sec. to lose one yard or did the play clock again start after marking off the penalty?

3-5-DAL 25 (12:04) (Shotgun) PENALTY on GB-M.Neal, Encroachment, 5 yards, enforced at DAL 25 - No Play. X22

1-10-DAL 30 (12:04) D.Murray right end to DAL 45 for 15 yards (M.Burnett).

PENALTY on DAL-D.Bryant, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at DAL 45.

1-5-DAL 35 (11:31) T.Romo pass short right to D.Murray to DAL 34 for -1 yards (B.Jones).

PENALTY on GB-B.Jones, Face Mask (15 Yards), 15 yards, enforced at DAL 34. X23

1-10-DAL 49 (11:08) (Shotgun) T.Romo pass deep middle to J.Witten to GB 24 for 27 yards (B.Jones; M.Hyde). Pass complete on a "seam" route.
 

50cent

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I watched the game he ran out of bounds on both of the plays and the clock was stopped. The bottomline here is that running the ball is not the foolproof defense protector that people want it to be. The defense couldn't get anyone off the field and the offense failed to execute.

No the bottomline is that you are making stuff up and don't know the rules. Yes the clock was stopped, but not because he ran out of bounds. It stopped because both plays resulted in a penalty. Once the ball is spotted, its as if the running out of bounds never happened and the game clock begins. If he had run out of bounds inside the last 5 minute, then the clock is stopped. Once again, you are making stuff up. Here are the rules in case you need further clarification. I did the research for you (its an easy google search):

Scrimmage Down

(a) Whenever a runner goes out of bounds on a play from scrimmage, the game clock is started when

an official spots the ball at the inbounds spot, and the Referee gives the signal to start the game

clock, except that the clock will start on the snap:

(1) after a change of possession;

(2) after the two-minute warning of the first half; or

(3) inside the last five minutes of the second half.


(f) If the game clock is stopped after a down in which there was a foul by either team, following

enforcement or declination of a penalty, the game clock will start as if the foul had not occurred,

except that the clock will start on the snap if:

(1) the foul occurs after the two-minute warning of the first half;

(2) the foul occurs inside the last five minutes of the second half; or

(3) a specific rule prescribes otherwise.

So again, the last drive of the 3rd was the definition of mismanagement of the clock and your scenario is another make-believe scenario, just like the scenarios that automatically give us a 3 and out if we ever attempted 3 straight run plays. You are just wrong boss.
 

50cent

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  1. With the exception of the last two minutes of the first half and the last five minutes of the second half, the game clock will be restarted following a kickoff return, a player going out of bounds on a play from scrimmage, or after declined penalties when appropriate on the referee’s signal.
http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/timing

@FuzzyLumpkins why did you like this? It proves you are wrong.
 

Stash

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As usual, Mickey the shill doesn't have a leg to stand on. He can mention intangible, hypothetical opinions like "changing the culture", but as soon as Broaddus counters with the tangible "wins", the debate is over.
 

DanteEXT

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@FuzzyLumpkins why did you like this? It proves you are wrong.

Technically he would be both right and wrong. The clock would be stopped, at least temporarily, by Murray running out of bounds on those plays.

The question I have is whether running out of bounds is considered an administrative stoppage and the play clock is set for 25. If not, does the play clock start after the runner runs out of bounds or does it start again on the ref signal. I really don't remember off the top of my head.
 

Idgit

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As usual, Mickey the shill doesn't have a leg to stand on. He can mention intangible, hypothetical opinions like "changing the culture", but as soon as Broaddus counters with the tangible "wins", the debate is over.

Unless you believe things other than coaching can contribute to losses in the NFL.

This is the same argument we used to have about Tony Romo on this board, untill consensus finally overwhelmed that he really was a very good player. The formula is pretty clear: good organizations assemble the talent to pass effectively and to defend the pass effectively in today's NFL. That's what wins. The jury is out re: how effectively we've been recently at doing that, but doing that is a lot more relevant to the decision to retain the HC than the won/loss record over the last three seasons. A lot more.
 

Clove

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The fact is, Mickey has his head so far up Jerry Jone's butt, the doctor asks Mickey for a health report on Jerry. And all the arguments Mickey has made over the years protecting this guy, protecting this coach, protecting this player, has not equated to victories. He defends Jones, yet what exactly has Jones done in the 2000s, what has Jones done in the 2010s? He protects Romo, where are the victories? He protects Garrett, where are the wins? Someone has to be doing a bad job, and if it's on the lesser players, who's hiring them, who's coaching them, and who's leading them?

You can't reason with a person who's brainwashed. I know, I've tried for years here.
 

Clove

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All that said, he doesn't have much talent on this roster to work with. Making the playoffs would be a minor miracle. I think the coaching staff is good enough as a whole to make up for SOME Garrett defeciencies(callahan's zone blocking scheme helped), and JG's job duties seem to be shrinking every year.
The problem with this statement is, he's been bringing in the groceries for 7 years, or at least helping to. So if we have a talent problem, he needs to look in the mirror. There's no way out of blame with anyone who's been in this organization over the last 7 or 8 years, and ultimately over the last 17 to 18.

When folks, mainly Cowboys personnel, stop making excuses, then we may finally start being something and doing something of importance.
 

Idgit

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The problem with this statement is, he's been bringing in the groceries for 7 years, or at least helping to. So if we have a talent problem, he needs to look in the mirror. There's no way out of blame with anyone who's been in this organization over the last 7 or 8 years, and ultimately over the last 17 to 18.

When folks, mainly Cowboys personnel, stop making excuses, then we may finally start being something and doing something of importance.

And/or when we address the pass defense, which is what's actually kept us away from the NFCE crown and the playoffs the last three seasons.
 

50cent

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Technically he would be both right and wrong. The clock would be stopped, at least temporarily, by Murray running out of bounds on those plays.

The question I have is whether running out of bounds is considered an administrative stoppage and the play clock is set for 25. If not, does the play clock start after the runner runs out of bounds or does it start again on the ref signal. I really don't remember off the top of my head.

Ref signal
 

TheDude

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Technically he would be both right and wrong. The clock would be stopped, at least temporarily, by Murray running out of bounds on those plays.

The question I have is whether running out of bounds is considered an administrative stoppage and the play clock is set for 25. If not, does the play clock start after the runner runs out of bounds or does it start again on the ref signal. I really don't remember off the top of my head.

Clock stops on whistle. Restarts on ref signal
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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@FuzzyLumpkins why did you like this? It proves you are wrong.

My central point is that running the ball is not foolproof. I am not a sophist so I like any evidence that brings the truth to light.

For most of the game, they restart the clock after setting the ball or whenever the refs feel appropriate but the clock is still stopped. There is no evidence that running the ball would have limited the number of possessions that GB got to the point of them not having the lead and the ball with over 1:30 left. You take also ignores the gross misexecution by Free, Bryant, Murray and especially Romo.

The defense gives up 30 points in the second half and its Garrett's fault? I don't buy that scapegoating oversimplification.
 

TheMarathonContinues

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I think there's some truth in what both Broaddus and Mickey said. I don't think its simply as black and white as fans want you to believe.
 

50cent

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My central point is that running the ball is not foolproof. I am not a sophist so I like any evidence that brings the truth to light.

For most of the game, they restart the clock after setting the ball or whenever the refs feel appropriate but the clock is still stopped. There is no evidence that running the ball would have limited the number of possessions that GB got to the point of them not having the lead and the ball with over 1:30 left. You take also ignores the gross misexecution by Free, Bryant, Murray and especially Romo.

The defense gives up 30 points in the second half and its Garrett's fault? I don't buy that scapegoating oversimplification.

No your central point was to show that the clock even stops on run plays if the player goes out of bounds and you're wrong. There's a difference between the clock stopping and not restarting until the next snap and a player running OB before the 5 min mark and momentarily stopping to spot the ball, only to restart before a snap has to occur!!

As for no evidence, that's simply because we didn't run the ball to accumulate said evidence. If you're passing most of the time, like the GB GAME or course there will be lack of evidence that the run game WOULD OF been successful IF we ever tried to do so. How about actually doing so when you have a 20+ point lead to see if ACTUAL football works!

Simply put, you were wrong on the clock stoppage issue pimp!

T
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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No your central point was to show that the clock even stops on run plays if the player goes out of bounds and you're wrong. There's a difference between the clock stopping and not restarting until the next snap and a player running OB before the 5 min mark and momentarily stopping to spot the ball, only to restart before a snap has to occur!!

As for no evidence, that's simply because we didn't run the ball to accumulate said evidence. If you're passing most of the time, like the GB GAME or course there will be lack of evidence that the run game WOULD OF been successful IF we ever tried to do so. How about actually doing so when you have a 20+ point lead to see if ACTUAL football works!

Simply put, you were wrong on the clock stoppage issue pimp!

T

You don't get to tell me what my point is. Milking the clock by running the ball is not a universal panacea for a defense that gives up TDs on every single possession. They had the ball and were running out the clock with 1:30 left. You really think 3 more runs would have made a difference? Or wait you of course would have revised it such that you were calling runs on the Romo interceptions.

There have been other games where they have attempted to run the clock out and failed to get first downs. It is very possible that they run the ball more, still not get first downs, and have the defense still choke away every single possession. The story after those games has been that he isn't playing to win like against the Patriots a couple of years ago.

If Romo hadn't thrown those interceptions and they actually execute the passing offense then it ends up like the buttwhooping the Saints put up on us a few weeks before. We can front on hypotheticals all day long.

You know why I think we lost that game? Because we had LBers like Sims and Lawrence out there that have no idea how to attack routes. They would run routes straight at Lawrence and he would shuffle his feet but sit like a deer in the head lights as the pass was completed and he offered no resistance. Ernie Sims would basically run back to his drop and then try and chase the ball like the blind dog in the butcher shop they like to talk about.

One thing I will say is that when things were really bad it wasn't Church, Wilcox, Carter or Claiborne getting dominated because they were still in there. Packers receivers attacked Lawrence, Sims, Heath, Webb, Scandrick, and Carr.
 

Stash

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Unless you believe things other than coaching can contribute to losses in the NFL.

This is the same argument we used to have about Tony Romo on this board, untill consensus finally overwhelmed that he really was a very good player. The formula is pretty clear: good organizations assemble the talent to pass effectively and to defend the pass effectively in today's NFL. That's what wins. The jury is out re: how effectively we've been recently at doing that, but doing that is a lot more relevant to the decision to retain the HC than the won/loss record over the last three seasons. A lot more.

Opinion noted.
 

Beast_from_East

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I really don't care about what happened last year or the year before. Garrett has one last chance to prove he is a legit NFL head coach by getting this team to the playoffs this season

No playoffs means no extension. Even Jerry knows he can't get away with that or else he would have already done it
 

Idgit

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Opinion noted.

That one's not actually opinion. I'm simply saying that, logically, if we can accept the idea that factors other than coaching can contribute to a team losing NFL games--and I think we can all agree that that's a reasonable position to take--then the debate is not over just because Brian Broaddus points to a won/loss record. He'd actually have to make the point that it's the coaching that's causing or significantly contributing to the losses.
 

Idgit

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I really don't care about what happened last year or the year before. Garrett has one last chance to prove he is a legit NFL head coach by getting this team to the playoffs this season

No playoffs means no extension. Even Jerry knows he can't get away with that or else he would have already done it

I think this is a sensible approach. Whatever we think about JG, it's time for the team to deliver.
 

Idgit

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...There have been other games where they have attempted to run the clock out and failed to get first downs. It is very possible that they run the ball more, still not get first downs, and have the defense still choke away every single possession. The story after those games has been that he isn't playing to win like against the Patriots a couple of years ago...

I quoted this, but didn't read it all first before I went back to the 2011 season for the score: L 16–20. And fans were screaming bloody murder at the time for running it. And I, and probably you, defended it at the time saying it was reasonable to run the ball there and that people were just angry about the outcome and not the coaching. And I'd have said the exact same thing there if we'd passed the ball instead and still lost. And people would be screaming bloody murder about the exact opposite HC decision.

I don't understand why more people don't accept that there is usually more than one acceptable option in a game situation, and that it only makes sense to get upset at a coaching decision when a tactically poor decision is made, rather than getting upset about an unsuccessful outcome. It's the decision making, and not the result that should be praised or criticized.
 
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