Mickey Spagnola: "(Roy Williams) should be ashamed of himself" - 5/13/08

[dallasfaniac]

Yes, it is obvious. Which leads me to the point about people quoting 2006 as evidence that Roy was playing top-notch football as a SS, except for last year. We played a very conservative approach to defense, and Roy was in cover-2 all the time.

That 5 interceptions blurs the fact that his play was deteriorating even prior to last season...

So, when we subtract stats from Roy because he played in the cover-2, are we doing it for every other player that plays cover-2? Bob Sanders must really be overrated. How many of Ed Reeds INTs should we subtract for the times they played cover-2? Tomlin is a huge cover-2 guy and inserted alot more looks last year, Polamalu's must have gotten alot more INTs last year.

 

[khiladi]

So, when we subtract stats from Roy because he played in the cover-2, are we doing it for every other player that plays cover-2? Bob Sanders must really be overrated. How many of Ed Reeds INTs should we subtract for the times they played cover-2? Tomlin is a huge cover-2 guy and inserted alot more looks last year, Polamalu's must have gotten alot more INTs last year.

Which is the whole point, isn't it? Statistics are not giving context, so unless one analyzes the NFL tape, one really can't prove all that much. But we do know that coaches and expert, those that are more involved in knowing the context, are concerned with Roy's play and that he has regressed.

Also, you need to also consider that your analogy is flawed from the angle that we are speaking about Roy specifically and his deterioration, not Roy as compared to other players. We are talking about how he performs in coverage situations where more onus is on him individually in coverage as opposed to situations where he is providing help in coverage. While it isn't specific, we do know that BP played a hell of a lot more cover-2 than Wade last year, and was much more conservative in defensive philosophy than Wade. That could have contributed in hiding Roy's decline over the years.

 

[BigD]

What the asking price now-a-days for a replica RW #31 jersey?

 

[rodd94]

What the asking price now-a-days for a replica RW #31 jersey?

There are some on ebay going for £34 + p&p. So in $$$ thats about what? $65 +p&p?

 

[dallasfaniac]

Which is the whole point, isn't it? Statistics are not giving context, so unless one analyzes the NFL tape, one really can't prove all that much.

Adam has provided info from STATS and Joyner, which analyze game tape, yet they are ignored by many on this board because it doesn't support their side.

But we do know that coaches and expert, those that are more involved in knowing the context, are concerned with Roy's play and that he has regressed.

Have the coaches specifially said that they were concerned about his play? Have they specifically said that he has regressed? On obvious passing downs, did they take him off the field or move him to linebacker? If they MOVED him rather than REMOVED him, was is this more an indication that they were worried more about his coverage ability or a linebacker's? (You know, like Roy and an extra DB are better than Roy and a LB or a LB and an extra DB.)

 

[khiladi]

Adam has provided info from STATS and Joyner, which analyze game tape, yet they are ignored by many on this board because it doesn't support their side.

Maybe you missed the point. Quoting statistics is not the same thing as drawing correct conclusions from statistics. In fact, I believe somebody also quoted Joyner as arguing that the coverage problems of Roy are well known.

Have the coaches specifially said that they were concerned about his play? Have they specifically said that he has regressed? On obvious passing downs, did they take him off the field or move him to linebacker? If they MOVED him rather than REMOVED him, was is this more an indication that they were worried more about his coverage ability or a linebacker's? (You know, like Roy and an extra DB are better than Roy and a LB or a LB and an extra DB.)

Jerry, his boss, has already stated that Roy's play has dropped off and positioning is an issue with him. Jerry isn't going to make statements that relate to positioning and angles if he hasn't discussed it with coaches. But Jerry also says that he has ever reason to believe that Roy will correct himself and adjust.

 

[dallasfaniac]

Maybe you missed the point. Quoting statistics is not the same thing as drawing correct conclusions from statistics. In fact, I believe somebody also quoted Joyner as arguing that the coverage problems of Roy are well known.

Maybe you are missing the point. Many have drawn their conclusions despite the stats. They would rather not talk about the stats at all but instead point to some media members comments as fact. What exactly did Joyner say? Did he say Roy is the only strong safety with coverage problems? Did he say he was the worst? Or did he just say that Roy has coverage problems (which every strong safety has)?

Jerry, his boss, has already stated that Roy's play has dropped off and positioning is an issue with him. Jerry isn't going to make statements that relate to positioning and angles if he hasn't discussed it with coaches. But Jerry also says that he has ever reason to believe that Roy will correct himself and adjust.

My point is, yes, they have given innocent answers to direct questions, but does that mean they are concerned? Did Jones say that he is always out of position or just that he had gotten out of position a couple times? Did he specifically say that his play has declined or regressed?

Is it possible that they understood that he had a couple hiccups last year but it is something that every other player in the NFL goes through from time to time? I'm sure Roy isn't the first player that has gotten out of position, had a down year or two, taken a bad angle, whiffed on a tackle etc.

It seems to me, many fans are making this more than the team thinks it is.

 

[khiladi]

Maybe you are missing the point. Many have drawn their conclusions despite the stats. They would rather not talk about the stats at all but instead point to some media members comments as fact. What exactly did Joyner say? Did he say Roy is the only strong safety with coverage problems? Did he say he was the worst? Or did he just say that Roy has coverage problems (which every strong safety has)?

The statement of Joyner, if quoted correctly, was that Roy Williams is not over-rated because his coverage problems are already acknowledged. So is Joyner listening to the media homers as well?

My point is, yes, they have given innocent answers to direct questions, but does that mean they are concerned? Did Jones say that he is always out of position or just that he had gotten out of position a couple times? Did he specifically say that his play has declined or regressed?

He was making a general statement and he isn't going to flat-out say he stunk it up last year, considering he is a Cowboy. He also said that the horse-collar rule impacted his play, but he has ever reason to believe he can adjust provided he puts in the effort. And Jerry further said that the reason he has to resort to horse-collaring individuals is because of his technique and position, so he needs to work on these things. Among issues related to positioning, Jerry said he needs to work more on his anticipation. He plays from behind resulting in some of the problems.

So when Roy-bashers talk about Roy not being able to tackle anymore and whiffing on tackles, while it may be exxaggerated, it certainly has a ring of truth to it.

Is it possible that they understood that he had a couple hiccups last year but it is something that every other player in the NFL goes through from time to time? I'm sure Roy isn't the first player that has gotten out of position, had a down year or two, taken a bad angle, whiffed on a tackle etc.

It seems to me, many fans are making this more than the team thinks it is.

Of course he isn't the first player. But the fact is, you only make statements like that when it happens more than normal.

 

[dallasfaniac]

The statement of Joyner, if quoted correctly, was that Roy Williams is not over-rated because his coverage problems are already acknowledged. So is Joyner listening to the media homers as well?

Again, does he say that Roy is the only safety with coverage problems? Does he say that Roy is the worst? What does this statement say other than Roy is not over-rated, because we already know he has coverage problems? ie. To be overrating him, we would need to be saying he is better at coverage than he really is. But since no one is saying that he is an awesome cover safety, we aren't overrating him.

He was making a general statement and he isn't going to flat-out say he stunk it up last year, considering he is a Cowboy. He also said that the horse-collar rule impacted his play, but he has ever reason to believe he can adjust provided he puts in the effort. And Jerry further said that the reason he has to resort to horse-collaring individuals is because of his technique and position, so he needs to work on these things. Among issues related to positioning, Jerry said he needs to work more on his anticipation. He plays from behind resulting in some of the problems.

So when Roy-bashers talk about Roy not being able to tackle anymore and whiffing on tackles, while it may be exxaggerated, it certainly has a ring of truth to it.

Of course he isn't the first player. But the fact is, you only make statements like that when it happens more than normal.

But name one player that does not have an area to improve upon. Did Jerry come out and say these things about Roy unprompted? Did they ask him about the weather and he had to say things about Roy? If you went to Phillips and asked what areas Romo could improve upon, do you expect him to say nothing? Again, is Jerry and co. concerned or merely responding to questions that might have similar answers for every player on the team? Point blank, the media has asked more question about Roy than any other player and you really expect the team not to answer them? I think, and juding by the tone of Jerry and co., many fans and media are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

[khiladi]

But name one player that does not have an area to improve upon. Did Jerry come out and say these things about Roy unprompted? Did they ask him about the weather and he had to say things about Roy? If you went to Phillips and asked what areas Romo could improve upon, do you expect him to say nothing? Again, is Jerry and co. concerned or merely responding to questions that might have similar answers for every player on the team? Point blank, the media has asked more question about Roy than any other player and you really expect the team not to answer them? I think, and juding by the tone of Jerry and co., many fans and media are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Here is the exact quote, and as is clear, Jerry is speaking about Roy's play dropping:

"I think that we can expect a much more productive Roy Williams this coming year. That would imply that he had room to be more productive, and I think there are several things I think Roy will know and better deal with. The Roy Williams rule -- I think he will have an acclimation and handle it better. I think that is something that has impacted his play. And I know that it has. I handled the hearing. I represented him on the hearing in the suspension. My point is that is something that has had an impact on him.

But that's not only technique, that's positioning. That's a lot of things. That's get out of ahead of the guy, a little more than coming from behind. There are a lot of things that are involved there he needs to work on. I know he's going to do it better. There are things that impact that can make that better. Our coaching staff, Wade (Phillips), can do some things that can help his game. He'll do better. ...

"My answer to all of (the criticism) is I have every reason to believe technically not just willing it or wishing I, I have every reason to believe he'll play better than last year."

If you notice, Jerry is talking about what has impacted his play and he states at the end that he has every reason to believe he will play better, provided that he puts in the work... And he also mentions the coaching staff can help him get better.