Mick's mail: Hamlin contract talk heats up.

[tomson75]

and he plays a more important position

David

That's a pretty outdated remark. It may have been accurate in the past, but isn't anymore. I'd think most Cowboys fans would know by now that the safety position is a very important one in today's NFL.

 

[dbair1967]

What?

Canty is an average 3-4 DE. Hamlin is an above average safety.

I guess we see it differently then, because Canty played better than average last yr...before last yr, yeah I'd agree...he was about average

I thought Hamlin was just adequate...he made some plays, gave some up...I think alot of people are overrating what he did on defense...the guy got 5 picks, 1 tackle for loss and no sacks, and totaled just 62 tackles...it was a nice yr, it wasnt a great yr

David

 

[theogt]

That's a pretty outdated remark. It may have been accurate in the past, but isn't anymore. I'd think most Cowboys fans would know by now that the safety position is a very important one in today's NFL.

I think when some people see defensive end, they still think 4-3 DE.

 

[dbair1967]

That's a pretty outdated remark. It may have been accurate in the past, but isn't anymore. I'd think most Cowboys fans would know by now that the safety position is a very important one in today's NFL.

Its no more important today than it was 10 yrs ago...

defense is still predicated on your front 7 and being able to 1) stop the run consistently and 2) get pressure on the QB...do those two things and you normally will fare well even if you have average or below average DB's (ie, like the Giants last yr)

David

 

[theogt]

I guess we see it differently then, because Canty played better than average last yr...before last yr, yeah I'd agree...he was about average

I thought Hamlin was just adequate...he made some plays, gave some up...I think alot of people are overrating what he did on defense...the guy got 5 picks, 1 tackle for loss and no sacks, and totaled just 62 tackles...it was a nice yr, it wasnt a great yr

David

That's a better statline than 43 tackles, 3.5 sacks, and 5 TFLs.

 

[dbair1967]

I think when some people see defensive end, they still think 4-3 DE.

I wasnt one of those...

but they still play an important role (3-4) DE's...they are key in helping a defense be strong vs the run...maybe not so much as pass rushers (especially on nickel downs) but definitely they are still important

David

 

[dbair1967]

That's a better statline than 43 tackles, 3.5 sacks, and 5 TFLs.

not really...and Hamlin also took part in alot more total plays

David

 

[big dog cowboy]

I would rather see him play out the year under his franchise tender and then select a safety with the first or second round pick next year.

Depending on guys like Roy W. and C. Brown we might do that anyway.

 

[theogt]

not really...and Hamlin also took part in alot more total plays

David

Oh, well, if you want to look at things on a per play basis.

RATE OF SACKS OR TACKLES FOR LOSS
Spears = 1 every 55.5 snaps
Johnson = 1 every 70.0 snaps
Hatcher = 1 every 73.4 snaps
Canty = 1 every 90.0 snaps
Ratliff = 1 every 101.5 snaps
R.Ayodele = none
Bowen = none

 

[tomson75]

Its no more important today than it was 10 yrs ago...

I couldn't disagree more, and apparently the people that hand out paychecks in the NFL front offices agree with me.

defense is still predicated on your front 7 and being able to 1) stop the run consistently and 2) get pressure on the QB...do those two things and you normally will fare well even if you have average or below average DB's (ie, like the Giants last yr)

David

This, I agree with, but it doesn't lessen the importance of having adequate CB's and Safeties.

....but guess what? Canty only does one of the two things you mentioned consistently.

BTW, I'm a huge fan of Canty.

 

[Vintage]

OK. So Canty > Ratliff.

Wish we hadn't overpaid Ratliff then.

 

[theogt]

OK. So Canty > Ratliff.

Wish we hadn't overpaid Ratliff then.

They're both about average starting 3-4 defensive linemen, and will recieve about average 3-4 defensive linemen contracts. Ratliff's wasn't high at all.

 

[dbair1967]

Oh, well, if you want to look at things on a per play basis.

you could also look at it this way, Canty was on the field less than Hamlin...Canty had 3.5 sacks and 5 tackles for loss, so basically 8.5 impact plays...Hamlin was on the field more than Canty was, and had 5 picks and 1 TFL...so he made fewer "impact" plays than Canty did, and did so despite being on the field more

like I said I dont see a big difference in the production and in the grand scheme, niether is significantly more important than the other

David

 

[theogt]

you could also look at it this way, Canty was on the field less than Hamlin...Canty had 3.5 sacks and 5 tackles for loss, so basically 8.5 impact plays...Hamlin was on the field more than Canty was, and had 5 picks and 1 TFL...so he made fewer "impact" plays than Canty did, and did so despite being on the field more

like I said I dont see a big difference in the production and in the grand scheme, niether is significantly more important than the other

David

You could look at it that way, but it'd be pretty stupid.

What's the average sack rate for 3-4 DE?

What's the average INT rate for a safety?

 

[dbair1967]

I couldn't disagree more, and apparently the people that hand out paychecks in the NFL front offices agree with me.

safeties are still down towards the bottom in avg pay in terms of regular positions (subtracting kicker and punter)...even guards are getting bigger paydays than the vast majority of safeties now

David

 

[tomson75]

I dont think that would be the case, but if they are sitting at VR today saying "lets keep Hamlin at the expense of Canty" thats pure stupidity...Canty is a better player with alot more upside than Hamlin, and he plays a more important position

David

like I said I dont see a big difference in the production and in the grand scheme, niether is significantly more important than the other

David

What did you say again?

 

[dbair1967]

You could look at it that way, but it'd be pretty stupid.

What's the average sack rate for 3-4 DE?

What's the average INT rate for a safety?

ok...whatever theo...you apparently missed the point, or are just choosing to ignore it

David

 

[Boysboy]

Its no more important today than it was 10 yrs ago...

defense is still predicated on your front 7 and being able to 1) stop the run consistently and 2) get pressure on the QB...do those two things and you normally will fare well even if you have average or below average DB's (ie, like the Giants last yr)

David

Giants actually had a pretty good secondary last year-with the addition of Aaron Ross and Corey Webster emerging.

Anyhow-yes, your front 7 needs to stop the run and pressure the QB. However-the secondary nonetheless needs to do their jobs equally as well.

Remember those games when Newman and Henry were banged up, and Wade was forced to play more zone coverage than he wanted to?

Pt being that while it's true that without a pass rush, even an All Pro secondary will get lit up, the same is true if you may have a very, very good pass rush, but if your secondary is subpar, opposing receivers will consistently get separation on them in a matter of heartbeats.

It's no surprise why Parcells played pretty conservative on D-b/c we had Roy and Keith at the safety positions. If anything-Hamlin ended up giving Wade's schemes more flexibility.

 

[tomson75]

safeties are still down towards the bottom in avg pay in terms of regular positions (subtracting kicker and punter)...even guards are getting bigger paydays than the vast majority of safeties now

David

Now you're just trying to win this discussion for the sake of winning. If you can't cede that Safeties are getting paid (proportionally) more now than they were 10 years ago, then there is no sense even discussing this with you.

 

[theogt]

ok...whatever theo...you apparently missed the point, or are just choosing to ignore it

David

Oh, I got your point. Perhaps you missed where I pointed out that it sucks.