Mick's mail: Hamlin contract talk heats up.

[dbair1967]

Rushing YPC has the lowest correlation coefficient with winning percentage of all major statistics. Defensive passing yards per attempt has one of the highest correlation coefficients with winning percentage.

Just because it's something YOU can't fathom, doesn't mean it is or isn't true.

ok...so show me some examples Theo...show me where that safety made the ultimate difference...can you think of any?

lets switch to RB...what did Jim Brown mean to the Browns teams? how about Emmitt Smith and Tony Dorsett here? what did Terrell Davis mean to the Broncos? what did Barry Sanders mean to the Lions (not a team that won championships, but a team that had soem playoff seasons)...what about Marshall Faulk in his prime with the Rams?

ultimately it is a TEAM thing, but a great RB will have a much larger impact on a team than a good or great safety...they can touch the ball 20-30 times a game...they can rush or or catch passes...they are directly responsible for SCORING points...

David

 

[dbair1967]

I think you did.

who's the best safety in the NFL today Theo...you pick whomever you like as THE best at that position

I dont car who you pick...just pick one

David

 

[TNCowboy]

IIRC, I read that the lowest paid (starting) position in the NFL is safety. Perhaps it was TE or G. Regardless, it seems to me that teams value safety less than most other positions. IMO, Hamlin isn't the sort of player you make an exception for on giving safeties big deals.

It just doesn't seem that hard to find a decent starting safety for most teams(granted, that has been a problem for Dallas ever since Woodson left). I don't know if it is really a choice between Canty and Hamlin, but if Canty is becoming the player I think he is, I'd much prefer to lock him up, especially if Hamlin is going to get Wilson $.

 

[tomson75]

this team could have won 13 games without Ken Hamlin last yr, they probably couldnt have won 13 games without Marion Barber

Barber, as much as I love the kid, can be replaced at almost any given moment by FA's or rookies, and we could go on to be just as successful. He's icing on the cake.

a good RB is vastly more important than a good safety, I'd even rather have a good RB than a great safety...they make a much larger impact on games, if you cant see that there's just no helping you

A larger impact only by the sense that they touch the ball more than any player outside of the QB...and by that theory, RB's are more important than any defensive player...I don't think so.

Me, I'll take a great safety and a good RB....he certainly doesn't have to be 'great' for a team to be successful.

I cant think of one team, not a single one where I thought a safety made THE difference in that teams ultimate success...however I can see several where a great RB made a HUGE impact on that team having a huge season or even winning it all

David

Name a team in the last ten years that won the super bowl because of its RB.

You're just being dense, and you know it.

 

[theogt]

ok...so show me some examples Theo...show me where that safety made the ultimate difference...can you think of any?

lets switch to RB...what did Jim Brown mean to the Browns teams? how about Emmitt Smith and Tony Dorsett here? what did Terrell Davis mean to the Broncos? what did Barry Sanders mean to the Lions (not a team that won championships, but a team that had soem playoff seasons)...what about Marshall Faulk in his prime with the Rams?

ultimately it is a TEAM thing, but a great RB will have a much larger impact on a team than a good or great safety...they can touch the ball 20-30 times a game...they can rush or or catch passes...they are directly responsible for SCORING points...

David

who's the best safety in the NFL today Theo...you pick whomever you like as THE best at that position

I dont car who you pick...just pick one

David

Is it now your contention that Chris Canty equals Jim Brown?

Goodness. You keep digging that hole deeper.

 

[TNCowboy]

ok...so show me some examples Theo...show me where that safety made the ultimate difference...can you think of any?

lets switch to RB...what did Jim Brown mean to the Browns teams? how about Emmitt Smith and Tony Dorsett here? what did Terrell Davis mean to the Broncos? what did Barry Sanders mean to the Lions (not a team that won championships, but a team that had soem playoff seasons)...what about Marshall Faulk in his prime with the Rams?

ultimately it is a TEAM thing, but a great RB will have a much larger impact on a team than a good or great safety...they can touch the ball 20-30 times a game...they can rush or or catch passes...they are directly responsible for SCORING points...

David

Generally, I agree with you on this point, though I think it could be argued that James Washington should've been the MVP of Super Bowl XXVIII.

 

[dbair1967]

IIRC, I read that the lowest paid (starting) position in the NFL is safety. Perhaps it was TE or G. Regardless, it seems to me that teams value safety less than most other positions. IMO, Hamlin isn't the sort of player you make an exception for on giving safeties big deals.

It just doesn't seem that hard to find a decent starting safety for most teams(granted, that has been a problem for Dallas ever since Woodson left). I don't know if it is really a choice between Canty and Hamlin, but if Canty is becoming the player I think he is, I'd much prefer to lock him up, especially if Hamlin is going to get Wilson $.

I totally agree...

and that was my point all along, that while Hamlin is a nice player, he is not 40 million kinda nice...he just dont (and wont) make that many plays to justify the contract...just because teams like the Raiders and Vikings made a couple of really ignorant payroll decisions on the safety position doesnt mean we have to as well, even though Hamlin IMO is a better player than Wilson or M Williams

I wont complain if they resign him to that kind of deal, but would rather see us spend the money elsewhere on more important positions

David

 

[theogt]

I totally agree...

and that was my point all along, that while Hamlin is a nice player, he is not 40 million kinda nice...he just dont (and wont) make that many plays to justify the contract...just because teams like the Raiders and Vikings made a couple of really ignorant payroll decisions on the safety position doesnt mean we have to as well, even though Hamlin IMO is a better player than Wilson or M Williams

I wont complain if they resign him to that kind of deal, but would rather see us spend the money elsewhere on more important positions

David

I think the problem is that you don't have a firm grasp on player salaries in today's NFL. $40 million over 6 years isn't that much today, particularly for a Pro Bowl caliber player.

 

[dbair1967]

Barber, as much as I love the kid, can be replaced at almost any given moment by FA's or rookies, and we could go on to be just as successful. He's icing on the cake.

and so could virtually any safety...Barber is a very very good player and has made a huge impact with the PT he has got

A larger impact only by the sense that they touch the ball more than any player outside of the QB...and by that theory, RB's are more important than any defensive player...I don't think so.

not more important that bigtime pass rushers or shutdown CB's, but otherwise, yes...more important

Name a team in the last ten years that won the super bowl because of its RB.

name one EVER that won a super bowl because of a safety...on the other hand, I seriously doubt we win 3 super bowls in the 90's without Emmitt Smith...Denver doesnt go back to back without Terrell Davis doing what he did...the Rams certainly would have never won the super bowl without Marshall Faulk

David

 

[Rampage]

it depends on when they happen wouldnt you agree?

David

yes but whether it's in the 1st quarter down by 3 or the 4th quarter an interception is a bigger impact than a sack.

 

[dbair1967]

I think the problem is that you don't have a firm grasp on player salaries in today's NFL. $40 million over 6 years isn't that much today, particularly for a Pro Bowl caliber player.

its almost 7mils a yr

I would agree that ultimate the way the contract would be strucuted (lessening immediate impact and really being a 3-4yr deal) is not cause for major alarm...still when you see an average salary of almost 7mils, to me you want to have those amounts dedicated to impact players and cornerstone pieces...and Hamlin just isnt that IMO...he's a good player, not an elite one

David

 

[Bob Sacamano]

That's a pretty outdated remark. It may have been accurate in the past, but isn't anymore. I'd think most Cowboys fans would know by now that the safety position is a very important one in today's NFL.

not in our scheme, we don't ask Hamlin to cover TEs and slot WRs much, he mainly just patrols CF

it's not my money though

 

[TNCowboy]

I think the problem is that you don't have a firm grasp on player salaries in today's NFL. $40 million over 6 years isn't that much today, particularly for a Pro Bowl caliber player.

That's still an enormous contract. I don't know the #s, but I'd say the average NFL starter doesn't make anywhere near that when the cap is only $116M, or whatever it is, and is growing at 6 or 7% annually.

It seems like a bloated contract for a guy who's been a pretty good player, but hardly an established star.

 

[dbair1967]

yes but whether it's in the 1st quarter down by 3 or the 4th quarter an interception is a bigger impact than a sack.

what if you intecept a hail mary heave at the end of a half or game? or pick one off when your team is up by 3 tds in the 4th qtr? is that a bigger play than the 3rd down sack that forced a fumble or a punt? is that a bigger play than a 4th and 1 running play stuffed for no gain that gained us possesion? the same can be said in reverse

thats why I said it matters when they happen...of course turnovers are huge, but sacks or tackles for loss can also be huge...

David

 

[dbair1967]

Is it now your contention that Chris Canty equals Jim Brown?

Goodness. You keep digging that hole deeper.

where do you get this junk? do I need to get out my crayons and draw pictures for you?



David

 

[theogt]

its almost 7mils a yr

I would agree that ultimate the way the contract would be strucuted (lessening immediate impact and really being a 3-4yr deal) is not cause for major alarm...still when you see an average salary of almost 7mils, to me you want to have those amounts dedicated to impact players and cornerstone pieces...and Hamlin just isnt that IMO...he's a good player, not an elite one

David

Hmmm...seems to me that if he could have 5 INTs per season, he'd be one of the biggest impact players in the NFL. What's more is that on top of being excellent coverage, he's also strong enough against the run that he can play both safety positions.

 

[tomson75]

not in our scheme, we don't ask Hamlin to cover TEs and slot WRs much, he mainly just patrols CF

it's not my money though

Well he's apparently important enough to give a very large sum of money to. Apparently a sum that some posters on here wouldn't dish out to him because of his position. But hey, what do actual NFL front offices know?

 

[Rampage]

what if you intecept a hail mary heave at the end of a half or game? or pick one off when your team is up by 3 tds in the 4th qtr? is that a bigger play than the 3rd down sack that forced a fumble or a punt? is that a bigger play than a 4th and 1 running play stuffed for no gain that gained us possesion? the same can be said in reverse

thats why I said it matters when they happen...of course turnovers are huge, but sacks or tackles for loss can also be huge...

David

I just meant if you have the same situation(4th down losing by 7 or 4th down winning by 7) an interception will always have a bigger impact than just a sack. i say just a sack cause i don't think Canty forced any fumbles. ot but have you heard anything bout Dmac in oaktown?

 

[theogt]

I just meant if you have the same situation(4th down losing by 7 or 4th down winning by 7) an interception will always have a bigger impact than just a sack. i say just a sack cause i don't think Canty forced any fumbles. ot but have you heard anything bout Dmac in oaktown?

I can't believe you're actually having to defend the position that an INT has a bigger impact than a sack or a tackle for loss. Some people will argue anything, regardless of how stupid they sound.

 

[dbair1967]

Hmmm...seems to me that if he could have 5 INTs per season, he'd be one of the biggest impact players in the NFL. What's more is that on top of being excellent coverage, he's also strong enough against the run that he can play both safety positions.

I wouldnt describe him as excellent in coverage...in fact one of the reasons Seattle let him walk was because they thought he was average at best vs the pass and played with limited range

he's had 5 in his career once (with us last yr)...he had 8 in 4yrs before that

I think he had a nice yr for us, but I dont think he's one of the best safety's in football, nor do I think what he did last yr couldnt be duplicated by someone else, especially if we are talking about the ultimate difference we'd see between hamlin at 40 mils and another guy at closer to the league average for a starting safety (or less)

David