Mo Claiborne or Bobby Wagner?

[Nova]

There were several rumors on who the pick would have been.. im not sure who we would have taken, but assuming we still wanted to go corner, my pick would have been Jenkins.

What rookie corners do you think were better than him last year though? I thought he had a very productive season, and not just for a rookie.

I guess not as many as I was initially thinking. Casey Hayward was easily the best of them all. Stephen Gilmore was also better but I just realized he went in the top 10 so that wouldn't have been an option. And Alfonso Dennard arguably had a better season also, but he is quite a bit of trouble. (funny how the Patriots exploits just get swept under the rug!).

All in all I just wasn't impressed much with Jenkins' season. He struggled mightily earlier in the season, and then made a lot of noise by picking on a AZ.

I think he's a good player, but overall not as good as some think.

 

[Eskimo]

I'd take Brockers and Wagner over Mo myself.

I'd have actually preferred Quinton Coples at that spot of the draft because of his pass rush potential. If we had gone my route, we'd have been able to let Spencer walk this year and could have re-signed Mike Jenkins to a short-term cheap deal to come back as the #2 CB opposite Carr.

Then our front 4 would be: Coples Rat Hatcher Ware
our LBs would be: Wagner Lee Bruce
Our DBs would be: Carr Church ? Oscan Jenkins

The total cap savings would be around $10M with this switch. So we'd be about $20M under the cap and could work out an extension for Lee and maybe Dez this year very easily. We'd also be able to more easily absorb the dead money from releasing Free and Rat if there level of play doesn't improve. We'd have had money to be buyers in FA of any available interior OL or RT that would help us next year. With that kind of flexibiity I'd have released Free and signed Clabo - we'll have to really watch and see if Free can re-establish himself and if Parnell can take his play to the next level and win the starting job.

I don't dislike Mo. I just didn't like that trade up into the top 10 for a non-impact player. If he becomes a shutdown corner or a TO generating machine then I'm wrong the FO was right to make the deal. Only time will tell how this one will turn out.

 

[Frozen700]

This topic had been debated to death and is illogical considering we have no idea how our trade affected the rest of the draft.

Yeah agreed, talk about trying to play the role of a prophet.

This is ridiculous, I guess some are bored with nothing else to think of.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

This topic had been debated to death and is illogical considering we have no idea how our trade affected the rest of the draft.

I think its fair to say our trade didn't affect any other team from being able to take Wagner if they wanted to.

Honestly though, you aren't obliged to answer or participate if you don't like the thread.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Yeah agreed, talk about trying to play the role of a prophet.

This is ridiculous, I guess some are bored with nothing else to think of.

So ridiculous, bro.

 

[bsheeern]

I'm not sure I'd take Wagner, at 6'0'' 240 ish over Lee or Carter at anything football related.

Then the switch from 3-4 to 4-3 leads us with really 1 LB spot open and I couldn't see using a Wagner in that spot. He'd be more of a luxury at this point to us.

I also prefer the physical style and size of Mo over Jenkins. Jenkins is a little to small to be that #1 all around corner who can battle play after play with a Hakeem Nicks or any of the bigger WR's in the league. Julio, Colston, Dez, Andre Johnson, Dez, Boldin, Fitz, Marshall, Austin, Roddy, megatron, etc. They went out and got Finnegran to be that guy. So I would have a hard time going into a gameday with Carr as my only option for 1 on 1 cover guy against those 6' plus bigger WR's.

Then the off field issues are of Jenkins are just way to much for us. Dallas gets way to much Romo and Dez soap opera like publicity.

I like the Sean Lee, Carter, MO, Carr, witten. Ware, Bailey type guys who can be are less sizzle and more substance. This atmosphere can only have so many Dez/romo type guys before it becomes a distraction to X's & O's.

Jenkins is a perfect fit in St. Louis with Fisher and Mo is a perfect fit here with Garrett.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

I guess not as many as I was initially thinking. Casey Hayward was easily the best of them all. Stephen Gilmore was also better but I just realized he went in the top 10 so that wouldn't have been an option. And Alfonso Dennard arguably had a better season also, but he is quite a bit of trouble. (funny how the Patriots exploits just get swept under the rug!).

All in all I just wasn't impressed much with Jenkins' season. He struggled mightily earlier in the season, and then made a lot of noise by picking on a AZ.

I think he's a good player, but overall not as good as some think.

Hayward, no doubt, had the best year and was ultra productive. I would argue that Jenkins was a bit better than Gilmore by the end of the season, although not by much. Dennard was certainly off to a good start as well, but only played in 10 games and like you said, got in just a bit of trouble already, haha.

 

[TheRomoSexual]

I think its fair to say our trade didn't affect any other team from being able to take Wagner if they wanted to.

Honestly though, you aren't obliged to answer or participate if you don't like the thread.

That's absolutely not fair to say, and while I'm not obligated to answer, I'm certainly able to point out the absurdity of a proffered hypothetical.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

I'd take Brockers and Wagner over Mo myself.

I'd have actually preferred Quinton Coples at that spot of the draft because of his pass rush potential. If we had gone my route, we'd have been able to let Spencer walk this year and could have re-signed Mike Jenkins to a short-term cheap deal to come back as the #2 CB opposite Carr.

Then our front 4 would be: Coples Rat Hatcher Ware
our LBs would be: Wagner Lee Bruce
Our DBs would be: Carr Church ? Oscan Jenkins

The total cap savings would be around $10M with this switch. So we'd be about $20M under the cap and could work out an extension for Lee and maybe Dez this year very easily. We'd also be able to more easily absorb the dead money from releasing Free and Rat if there level of play doesn't improve. We'd have had money to be buyers in FA of any available interior OL or RT that would help us next year. With that kind of flexibiity I'd have released Free and signed Clabo - we'll have to really watch and see if Free can re-establish himself and if Parnell can take his play to the next level and win the starting job.

I don't dislike Mo. I just didn't like that trade up into the top 10 for a non-impact player. If he becomes a shutdown corner or a TO generating machine then I'm wrong the FO was right to make the deal. Only time will tell how this one will turn out.

Nice assessment, although i think if we wanted Clabo we could have signed him and released Free.

I guess a question that needs to also be answered is if Wagner could be as effective at the SLB position. I personally think he'd be just fine. I know there are some questions about a guy his size holding up there, but honestly Justin Durant is the same size. I'd much rather have Wagner over Durant right now.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

That's absolutely not fair to say, and while I'm not obligated to answer, I'm certainly able to point out the absurdity of a proffered hypothetical.

How is it not fair to say? How did our trade not allow anyone to take Wagner before he was selected, if they wanted to do so?

 

[bsheeern]

I'd take Brockers and Wagner over Mo myself.

I'd have actually preferred Quinton Coples at that spot of the draft because of his pass rush potential. If we had gone my route, we'd have been able to let Spencer walk this year and could have re-signed Mike Jenkins to a short-term cheap deal to come back as the #2 CB opposite Carr.

Then our front 4 would be: Coples Rat Hatcher Ware
our LBs would be: Wagner Lee Bruce
Our DBs would be: Carr Church ? Oscan Jenkins

The total cap savings would be around $10M with this switch. So we'd be about $20M under the cap and could work out an extension for Lee and maybe Dez this year very easily. We'd also be able to more easily absorb the dead money from releasing Free and Rat if there level of play doesn't improve. We'd have had money to be buyers in FA of any available interior OL or RT that would help us next year. With that kind of flexibiity I'd have released Free and signed Clabo - we'll have to really watch and see if Free can re-establish himself and if Parnell can take his play to the next level and win the starting job.

I don't dislike Mo. I just didn't like that trade up into the top 10 for a non-impact player. If he becomes a shutdown corner or a TO generating machine then I'm wrong the FO was right to make the deal. Only time will tell how this one will turn out.

Non-impact? Remember the fumble returned for a td? Or Int in the end zone to take away 7 points?

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Non-impact? Remember the fumble returned for a td? Or Int in the end zone to take away 7 points?

He made an impact in the result of that Eagles game, for sure. Not nearly as much of an impact as some of the other rookie corners though. For a guy hyped as the best CB prospect since Deion, i think some of us just expected him to at least show us more flashes of greatness in his first year.

This isn't to say that he still won't be one of the greats, but so far we haven't seen much at all to indicate that. When you trade up and give up that much, you almost have to get a guy who will make a big immediate impact.

 

[TheRomoSexual]

He made an impact in the result of that Eagles game, for sure. Not nearly as much of an impact as some of the other rookie corners though. For a guy hyped as the best CB prospect since Deion, i think some of us just expected him to at least show us more flashes of greatness in his first year.

This isn't to say that he still won't be one of the greats, but so far we haven't seen much at all to indicate that. When you trade up and give up that much, you almost have to get a guy who will make a big immediate impact.

I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous assumption. It's not Mo's fault that fans nowadays have unrealistic expectations that stems from ignorance of draft history.

 

[speedkilz88]

Rams guy was always Brockers they would have never moved down far enough for him to even be there for the Cowboys. Jenkins wasn't on the board.

 

[Nova]

Hayward, no doubt, had the best year and was ultra productive. I would argue that Jenkins was a bit better than Gilmore by the end of the season, although not by much. Dennard was certainly off to a good start as well, but only played in 10 games and like you said, got in just a bit of trouble already, haha.

I haven't gone back and watched the film myself just yet, but I recently read an article on Gilmore in which someone broke down pretty much all of his snaps, and apparently he had year success rates comparable to Revis, Sherman after his shaky start.

I'd like to check it out for myself of course, but the guy that did it has been pretty good at assessing corner play with his other write ups.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous assumption. It's not Mo's fault that fans nowadays have unrealistic expectations that stems from ignorance of draft history.

I don't think i made an assumption in that post. Perhaps you meant, expectation?

Either way, nothing i said there was as ridiculous as you think.

We gave up alot to trade up for a guy Jerry told us was going to be one of the greats. I'd have much rather taken Jenkins and Wagner and called it a day. I don't know if Clai is eventually going to be one of the best corners in the league. I certainly hope he will, but as of right now, its hard not to regret staying put when seeing the production we could have had from other corners in that draft combined with Wagner being outstanding in his first year, as well.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

I haven't gone back and watched the film myself just yet, but I recently read an article on Gilmore in which someone broke down pretty much all of his snaps, and apparently he had year success rates comparable to Revis, Sherman after his shaky start.

I'd like to check it out for myself of course, but the guy that did it has been pretty good at assessing corner play with his other write ups.

If you find the article, definitely post it. I think it would be an interesting read.

 

[mmillman]

Jerry tries to be too cute in the draft. He saw Jimmy make all his brilliant moves and that is what he knows.

If Dallas stayed put and takes Brockers right now it looks better.
They said they liked Wagner in the second.

So yeah in hypothetical land right now I like Brockers and Jenkins better than just Claiborne. Maybe Jenkins' attitude gets him in trouble soon though.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I'd take Mo.

More value at the CB position and we already have Lee and Carter. And it wasn't like Mo was bad last year. His coverage was often outstanding.






YR

 

[Nova]

If you find the article, definitely post it. I think it would be an interesting read.

Here ya go. Not perfect but pretty extensive.

http://presnapreads.com/2013/06/04/...n-the-failings-of-the-buffalo-bills/#more-880

The same guy has also done the same for Revis, Sherman, Peterson, Leon Hall, Hayward, Haden and Carlos Rogers.