My draft rumblings...

Zimmy Lives

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I have a dirty little secret: I'm fascinated by the sniping that goes on between Risen and xwalker. Both among the most influential (and best) posters on these boards, in my opinion, but somehow always at each other's throats. A bit like watching two of the big dogs on the block fight for neighbourhood supremacy.

I feel a bit guilty taking such interest in your sparring, gents. That said, I'm not sure I'd want to see it end. (Sorry.)

More like two dominant chimps thumping their chests for attention from the ladies while the smart chimp takes advantage of their distraction and gets all the ladies. So who is the smart chimp in this triad? :D
 

Outlaw Heroes

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More like two dominant chimps thumping their chests for attention from the ladies while the smart chimp takes advantage of their distraction and gets all the ladies. So who is the smart chimp in this triad? :D

Seems like a question for WG. She's also a mod, though, so it's probably not Crown Royal. Apparently, he likes to pick fights with mods.
 

Oh_Canada

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wow did the Seahawks pull off even more trades? That's an impressive secondary they have going now....

Only Earl Thomas was a high draft pick of Seattle's DB's, they did a good job of finding their type of guys late otherwise. And The Patriots have used 2 1st round picks on DB's in the past decade +.

No CB is capable of covering a WR for anything more than 5-7 seconds while a lot of CB's are capable of covering for 3 seconds. Simply put, you get to the QB quickly and your DB's look great. It also helps to have reliable safeties over the top to bail out your CB's. Another thing we've lacked for a while.

Yes I get it, totally understand the need for Dlineman I just don't think you dismiss the secondary (my Seattle point) as being irrelevant. Seattle got lucky on Sherman, but if you had to do that draft over again, I guarantee you Sherman is a top ten/twelve pick in an outstanding draft.
Over the past six years the Patriots have used SEVEN of there first EIGHTEEN picks on defensive backs and used big free agency dollars on the likes of Talib and Revis.
 

Oh_Canada

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Boy, now you're opening up a can of worms.

I know it's popular now to bash corners after the Claiborne fiasco, but don't try to tell me good corners don't impact a defense. The Cowboys dline was putrid at rushing the passer last season, not enough was made of how great a job OScan did, as well as Carr late in the season when he got his head on straight.
 

MichaelWinicki

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I know it's popular now to bash corners after the Claiborne fiasco, but don't try to tell me good corners don't impact a defense. The Cowboys dline was putrid at rushing the passer last season, not enough was made of how great a job OScan did, as well as Carr late in the season when he got his head on straight.

Well there's a certain couple of posters who seem to hate every fabric associated with the position. :D

They profess that a good pass rush is enough, and of course a good pass rush is important.

But virtually every good defense we see in the NFL: Seattle, Denver, Buffalo, NE combined a good pass rush with good corners. And I don't think this defense is going to be a top-10 defense without better corner play ALONG with a better pass rush.

And if the Cowboys do select a corner at #27 you'll be sure to read several posts lampooning the pick simply because it's a corner.
 

tm1119

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Yes I get it, totally understand the need for Dlineman I just don't think you dismiss the secondary (my Seattle point) as being irrelevant. Seattle got lucky on Sherman, but if you had to do that draft over again, I guarantee you Sherman is a top ten/twelve pick in an outstanding draft.
Over the past six years the Patriots have used SEVEN of there first EIGHTEEN picks on defensive backs and used big free agency dollars on the likes of Talib and Revis.

Your bolded statement is pointless because you could do that for every draft



But Ok so you're using the Pats as the gold standard....now let's look at the DB's they drafted in rounds 1-3 recently.

'14- none
'13- Logan Ryan
'12-Tavon Wilson
'11- Rai-I Dowling
'10- McCourty (27th)
'09- Pat Chung and Darius Butler
'08- Terrence Wheatley

So in the past 7 years the Pats have used 7 draft picks on DB's in the top 3 rounds and got 1 very good player (who failed at the position they drafted him at) and they always mediocre Pat Chung. Not exactly what I would call building a dominant secondary through the draft. And all of their FA CB's were 1 or 2 year deals. Besides McCourty I don't believe they've invested big money in the position.
 

Risen Star

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You don't think Richard Sherman, Darelle Revis, Joe Hayden and Patrick Peterson make defense's better? The Seahawks defense would stink without those four in the back. The Patriots sure seem to draft/sign a lot of corners and no one has ever accused Bellichek of being an idiot.

No. I do not. I do not believe any of those players make the guys up front any better.

The Patriots won their Super Bowls with who at CB? Revis is the only supposedly great CB. Does anybody believe Revis was the driving force behind this last Super Bowl? Cmon. Using Belichick is a bad example.

We've been over this a million times. Yes, you need to defend the pass. Some people think that means corners are critical. Those that understand the game know you can't out cover offenses. You have to disrupt and make the QB uncomfortable. Otherwise offenses will move up and down the field on your defense. No matter what irrelevant names you have at cornerback.
 

Risen Star

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Well there's a certain couple of posters who seem to hate every fabric associated with the position. :D

They profess that a good pass rush is enough, and of course a good pass rush is important.

But virtually every good defense we see in the NFL: Seattle, Denver, Buffalo, NE combined a good pass rush with good corners. And I don't think this defense is going to be a top-10 defense without better corner play ALONG with a better pass rush.

And if the Cowboys do select a corner at #27 you'll be sure to read several posts lampooning the pick simply because it's a corner.

You still don't get it, Mike. Build a dominant front seven and it makes you think the cornerbacks are really good. Field Jeremy Minceys and George Selvies and every cornerback on the planet looks like trash.

This is why Brandon Carr has "struggled" in Dallas.
 

Idgit

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Yes I get it, totally understand the need for Dlineman I just don't think you dismiss the secondary (my Seattle point) as being irrelevant. Seattle got lucky on Sherman, but if you had to do that draft over again, I guarantee you Sherman is a top ten/twelve pick in an outstanding draft.
Over the past six years the Patriots have used SEVEN of there first EIGHTEEN picks on defensive backs and used big free agency dollars on the likes of Talib and Revis.

Of *course* the CB position matters. I can't believe this is even a topic for reasonable debate on a football forum.

Defense and offense are different. You can't cover up for bad defensive players. They get exploited. You need to have depth and a rotation at every position group to match whatever game situation you're going to be up against. Anybody thinking that can be done without people capable of covering WRs is crazy. There's a reason why every GM on every team in the salary cap era has placed a premium on the CB position in terms of salary cap dollars.

And you need pass rushers for the very same reason you need CBs. The two aren't inversely related. You need to pressure the QB *and* you need to pressure his options in the passing game if you're going to make it hard on the bad guys to pass effectively. This romantic notion that football is won in the trenches is foolish. It's won in the passing game differential. The data on that is very clear.

Gotta love the 'who besides Revis' and 'who besides Sherman' angles, though. Who, indeed?
 

ThreeandOut

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You get good corner play through your front seven and safeties.

They aren't impact players. They make nobody better.

In your rankings you have CB's rated at 26, 27, and 29th. So I don't think you can complain too much if they take one of them at 27 assuming there's not a much higher rated player still left on your board.
 

Risen Star

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In your rankings you have CB's rated at 26, 27, and 29th. So I don't think you can complain too much if they take one of them at 27 assuming there's not a much higher rated player still left on your board.

The odds of the selections mirroring my top 50 are slim to none.

I probably wouldn't complain too much, it's a late 1st round pick. If they do go there, I want Jones as a S possibility.
 

Oh_Canada

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No. I do not. I do not believe any of those players make the guys up front any better.

The Patriots won their Super Bowls with who at CB? Revis is the only supposedly great CB. Does anybody believe Revis was the driving force behind this last Super Bowl? Cmon. Using Belichick is a bad example.

We've been over this a million times. Yes, you need to defend the pass. Some people think that means corners are critical. Those that understand the game know you can't out cover offenses. You have to disrupt and make the QB uncomfortable. Otherwise offenses will move up and down the field on your defense. No matter what irrelevant names you have at cornerback.

Ok so the Rams had easily the most talented dline in football, there corners blew. Middle of the road defense and only slightly better than the Cowboys. You don't need great corners I concede, but you need good ones at a minimum.
 

Oh_Canada

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Of *course* the CB position matters. I can't believe this is even a topic for reasonable debate on a football forum.

Defense and offense are different. You can't cover up for bad defensive players. They get exploited. You need to have depth and a rotation at every position group to match whatever game situation you're going to be up against. Anybody thinking that can be done without people capable of covering WRs is crazy. There's a reason why every GM on every team in the salary cap era has placed a premium on the CB position in terms of salary cap dollars.

And you need pass rushers for the very same reason you need CBs. The two aren't inversely related. You need to pressure the QB *and* you need to pressure his options in the passing game if you're going to make it hard on the bad guys to pass effectively. This romantic notion that football is won in the trenches is foolish. It's won in the passing game differential. The data on that is very clear.

Gotta love the 'who besides Revis' and 'who besides Sherman' angles, though. Who, indeed?

Yes as if Revis erasing the opposing teams best WR each week is irrelevant.
 

Rogerthat12

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Of *course* the CB position matters. I can't believe this is even a topic for reasonable debate on a football forum.

Defense and offense are different. You can't cover up for bad defensive players. They get exploited. You need to have depth and a rotation at every position group to match whatever game situation you're going to be up against. Anybody thinking that can be done without people capable of covering WRs is crazy. There's a reason why every GM on every team in the salary cap era has placed a premium on the CB position in terms of salary cap dollars.

And you need pass rushers for the very same reason you need CBs. The two aren't inversely related. You need to pressure the QB *and* you need to pressure his options in the passing game if you're going to make it hard on the bad guys to pass effectively. This romantic notion that football is won in the trenches is foolish. It's won in the passing game differential. The data on that is very clear.

Gotta love the 'who besides Revis' and 'who besides Sherman' angles, though. Who, indeed?

This issue has been run into the ground in the past, it is wise to avoid the either/or fallacy on the issue.

It is a both/and issue, we happen to need to rebuild the defensive line first while still adding secondary help in this draft.

Sure, a better DL that is not made up of bargain basement free agents will assist the secondary and that is the priority, as the team ignored the issue for years and allowed the DL to either defect and/or grow old, save the recent additions, relatively speaking, of Crawford and Dlaw.

So by priority in this draft, DL should be the main focus since we do have Scandrick playing decent on the outside but still need to add help back there in the secondary due to poor decision making and performance issues.

Sure, some of the performance issues in the secondary is directly related to the lack of pass rush but not all.

It is essential to build from the inside out, build the trenches such as the defensive line but you can do so while adding pieces to the secondary.

The issue with the Cowboys is that they allowed the DL to grow old and then tried to address the secondary before rebuilding the line and instead relied on bargain basement free agents because they were cap broke.

Fix the DL first while still adding a few secondary pieces to address the back end and the overall defense will improve significantly.
 

Idgit

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This issue has been run into the ground in the past, it is wise to avoid the either/or fallacy on the issue.

It is a both/and issue, we happen to need to rebuild the defensive line first while still adding secondary help in this draft.

Sure, a better DL that is not made up of bargain basement free agents will assist the secondary and that is the priority, as the team ignored the issue for years and allowed the DL to either defect and/or grow old, save the recent additions, relatively speaking, of Crawford and Dlaw.

So by priority in this draft, DL should be the main focus since we do have Scandrick playing decent on the outside but still need to add help back there in the secondary due to poor decision making and performance issues.

Sure, some of the performance issues in the secondary is directly related to the lack of pass rush but not all.

It is essential to build from the inside out, build the trenches such as the defensive line but you can do so while adding pieces to the secondary.

The issue with the Cowboys is that they allowed the DL to grow old and then tried to address the secondary before rebuilding the line and instead relied on bargain basement free agents because they were cap broke.

Fix the DL first while still adding a few secondary pieces to address the back end and the overall defense will improve significantly.

Teams structure their rosters so that they're rolling through replacements in position groups gradually. At the time we let Newman and Jenkins walk in relatively quick succession, and we were caught unprepared (and we shouldn't have been) and had to pay the premium for Brandon Carr. It was a mistake to get into that position.

The DL was another matter. They took a reasonable risk with the Ware extension, but the bottom fell out of that contract faster than we'd ever expected it to. Coupled with Rat having his tantrum and we had a lot of money tied up at that position group with not enough to show for it on the field. That's where the trading away of picks and the overall poor drafting of the Wade Phillips era really bit us hard.

At that point, we had glaring holes in both the secondary and the OL, and we had overextended contracts for players like Ware and Ratliff and that last year of coverage for Hatcher. The smart thing to do was just what we did: address CB and build and patch the OL first, and then address the DL behind that. We did a pretty good job of it, actually, considering we had no extra picks and zero salary cap room on top of the new CBA and the cap penalty for the Austin contract. It was a confluence of too few quality draft picks, poor drafting and player development, an aging roster, and aggressive cap management that took too many big bets on aging players.

We've been doing a lot better job with all of those things since 2010 under Garrett.
 

Rogerthat12

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Teams structure their rosters so that they're rolling through replacements in position groups gradually. At the time we let Newman and Jenkins walk in relatively quick succession, and we were caught unprepared (and we shouldn't have been) and had to pay the premium for Brandon Carr. It was a mistake to get into that position.

The DL was another matter. They took a reasonable risk with the Ware extension, but the bottom fell out of that contract faster than we'd ever expected it to. Coupled with Rat having his tantrum and we had a lot of money tied up at that position group with not enough to show for it on the field. That's where the trading away of picks and the overall poor drafting of the Wade Phillips era really bit us hard.

At that point, we had glaring holes in both the secondary and the OL, and we had overextended contracts for players like Ware and Ratliff and that last year of coverage for Hatcher. The smart thing to do was just what we did: address CB and build and patch the OL first, and then address the DL behind that. We did a pretty good job of it, actually, considering we had no extra picks and zero salary cap room on top of the new CBA and the cap penalty for the Austin contract. It was a confluence of too few quality draft picks, poor drafting and player development, an aging roster, and aggressive cap management that took too many big bets on aging players.

We've been doing a lot better job with all of those things since 2010 under Garrett.

Dallas has had a consistent problem, mostly due to poor drafting and GM mismanagement historically speaking, to fail to gradually replace position groups and instead allow them to grow old with bloated contracts and poor play as you succinctly state.

It should come as no surprise that since the drafts have improved, so has the team.

Further, you can tell the influence of Garrett, S. Jones and Will McClay or some confluence of them all have shifted the management style and direction of the team for the better.

Garrett mentioned today in the presser, what we all know, the offensive line was overpaid with bloated contracts and was simply old. Even he stated emphatically, you need to build the trenches to win.

The team suffered after they released the three veterans in one season because they failed to replace these players gradually through sound drafting and proper team management.

They realized they needed to make the OL a priority in terms of rebuilding the trenches and drafted well. The result of this type of priority and proper drafting has left us with one of the best offensive lines in the game.

Now, it is the time to rebuild the defensive line the same way. They allowed the defense to grow old with over bloated contracts especially Ware and Ratliff and the defections hurt the team.

They failed to draft properly and gradually replace the DL while players like Ware were still effective.

They mismanaged cap dollars by overpaying old players and failed to properly address the gradual talent influx with reference to the draft and defensive line.

Since, we have been cap poor, not only due to poor contracts but also because most of the cap allocation has been on offense.

Thus, they have been forced to rely on the bargain bin for defensive line help and it has showed the last two seasons.

They simply need to address the defensive line in the same way, Crawford and Lawrence are a start but they need to rebuild the defensive trenches this week.

Plus, drafting talent helps with cap management as well.

The secondary has been a series of management mistakes, failure to gradually replace properly via the draft, poor drafting and poor decision making.

Further, Mo has not performed regardless of the DL and Carr has also not lived up to the billing either especially for what you expected you were getting in the market.

To be fair, the total decimation of the defensive front has made these poor acquisitions even worse but they still have underperformed regardless in my view.

If we properly address the defensive line via the draft while adding some secondary help, this defense will see significant improvement and hopefully in so doing, the team will continue to figure out how to properly draft and manage this team in the salary cap era, finally!
 
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