Nerve firing confusion in Jaylon's recovery

[waldoputty]

From reading studies about reinnervation I found on google scholar.

I would also point out that the way you format quotes and bold things renders your posts confusing as to what is you and what is you quoting someone else.

Ok, if you have any articles, please forward.
I have not seen anything like it.
The 2 experts who tested regeneration in animal models said slow recovery.
Thanks!

I am just bolding mostly because many people are too lazy to read the whole thing.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Ok, if you have any articles, please forward.
I have not seen anything like it.
The 2 experts who tested regeneration in animal models said slow recovery.
Thanks!

I am just bolding mostly because many people are too lazy to read the whole thing.

I'm not a fan of bolding but what I am mostly talking about is the lack of paragraphs. That part about the canary seems like it is part of the previous quote due to lack of spacing for example.

If you really are concerned about people not reading your stuff due to wall of text syndrome then I would recommend having no paragraphs longer than 3 sentences and writing like newspapers do.

As for looking up nerve injuries on google scholar yet again. I think I will pass.

 

[waldoputty]

I'm not a fan of bolding but what I am mostly talking about is the lack of paragraphs. That part about the canary seems like it is part of the previous quote due to lack of spacing for example.

If you really are concerned about people not reading your stuff due to wall of text syndrome then I would recommend having no paragraphs longer than 3 sentences and writing like newspapers do.

As for looking up nerve injuries on google scholar yet again. I think I will pass.

Your suggestion sounds like a good idea.
Ok, I guess we will do without the canary.

If you ever run into these articles, please forward.

My friends would be interested also.
They work in animal models, so human results are usually worse and take longer.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Your suggestion sounds like a good idea.
Ok, I guess we will do without the canary.

If you ever run into these articles, please forward.

My friends would be interested also.
They work in animal models, so human results are usually worse and take longer.

Most of the tests that I have read about talk about taking a cat or rat and crushing/cutting the nerve right above the muscle. That process takes time but sometimes the endplate forms and function is restored in about a month; the actual function is like a switch in that case. One thing I recall reading repeatedly was that there was no specificity nor understanding of the biomechanics/biochemistry of how the nerves reinnervate.

Instead most of the studies were trying to figure that out. The issue is that all of the stuff post-2011 costs $30 or more to get access to and I am not spending upwards of a grand to maybe find the information.

What I do know is that Cowboys doctors are in a good position to know and they did not elect to do a graft, neurolysis, or similar surgical intervention. They can also use MRI or even sonograms to looks to see how the regeneration and reinnervation is progressing.

I'm in the camp that those cryptic tweets that Smith was sending about a month ago and that he hasn't been sending since were about his peroneal reinnervation. The timing lines up.

 

[plymkr]

No problem. Happy to share info with fellow fans.

Disclaimer
First of all, forgot to mention this, but I am not a MD or PhD. My info comes from 2 nerve regeneration PhDs whose info are a bit dated. So I dont have statistics other than what I find in medical journals etc.
@FuzzyLumpkins and @Doc50 may have a lot more info.

Actually @FuzzyLumpkins does not quite agree with all my conclusions - so I suggest you check with him to get his opinion.

Is the Nerve Healed
We do not know. No medical person has said anything that I can find publicly. We are operating on opinions from experts and tweets from various people and matching the anticipated timeline with these rumors/tweets/etc.
One useful piece of info. Given the time estimates from the medical people, the nerve should have gotten there by now, but are the connections between the nerve and the muscle connecting correctly? By now, if the nerve is not responding at all, most medical people tell me that there should have been surgical intervention - but there has only been happy tweets etc. But it does not mean he is 100% healed/rehabbed or he would be playing. Here is a simplistic way that I like to think about it - think of his nerve as a printer cable and his muscle as the printer. The injury disconnected the cable and damaged the last 6 inches of the cable so the printer cannot print even though the computer is sending (firing) the information. It takes a few months for the cable to get fixed and get back to the muscle, but because you unplugged the printer cable while the printer is on, the computer and printer need to talk to each other correctly. That is part of the way I think of the rehab. You cannot simply turn both off and then back on, resetting everything...

Jaylon's Chances This Season
I know it is preferable to put Jaylon's chances in a certain category, but I am going to put you back on the rollercoaster a bit. I am no expert, but from what I have read, IMO I am putting Jaylon's chances this year higher than 1 month ago. With no basis than just gut feeling, I was at 20% and I am now somewhere around 33%. The reason is there is no report of any setback that would require surgical correction. The most intriguing aspect of the situation is not what the Cowboys are saying, but it is what they are not saying. Jerry would not comment on whether the Cowboys would bring Smith back for a playoff run. "Jaylon Smith is in absolute excellent shape," Jones said. Adding: "...Certainly to the extent that we should be optimistic about some of the things we are seeing but that's obviously what I'm representing. We'll leave it at that, I don't think he's ready to go against Baltimore." IMO, Jerry sounds like the proverbial smug cat that ate the canary. The FO has seriously put the 'clamps' on him to shut him up (as well as Jaylon which IMO is much easier). IMO, Jerry is ready to burst and scream out loud to the world that the Cowboys, under the management of Jerry Jones, has just had the best draft in the history of the NFL. Of course, many call me an glass 3/4 full person. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000740119/article/jerry-jones-tackles-dak-romo-as-future-coach

Jaylon's Chances Next Season
I think most of us share your primary concern - that he gets close to 100% next season.
Next camp is more than 18 months after surgery.
Dr. Cooper said 9-15 months for full recovery.
So that is beyond the range given by the doctor.
IMO, if he is not close to ready for next camp, we are in trouble.
If he is close but not there, I would guess there is still hope.
But all the medical people are careful to say there are no guarantees for 100% success.
I tend to be optimistic in the sense that medical people do not want to jeopardize their reputation by overpromising. With professional reputation at stake, it is much safer to under-promise and over-deliver.
Here is an article I submitted in BTB that tried to translate the abstract of a medical journal article that compared statistics of injuries that were were worse and also a lot worse than Jaylon's injury:
http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2016...l-literature-on-nerve-regeneration-statistics

Thank you

 

[Echo9]

Unfortunately for the curious, according to BK, there is not much for the Cowboys to lose by having him 'practice'. No physical needed. Perhaps if the chances are zero, they may feel obligated to put him on IR.

Nothing to lose, but if he's practicing, he's on the field and the reporters will be hurting down the story. The team can't just say he's practicing and not have him doing so. Sure he can be "limited", but if he's got to be out on the field.
That's also the case with McFadden btw. They are in the same boat as far as the rules go.

 

[LandryFan]

WHERE'S WALDO!!!! <gets incredibly giddy and skirmy>

I spent five minutes looking and didn't find him...I think some of the picture (the part with Waldo in It) is missing.

 

[Trouty]

I spent five minutes looking and didn't find him...I think some of the picture (the part with Waldo in It) is missing.

Me too, Landry!!! Lol!

 

[waldoputty]

Most of the tests that I have read about talk about taking a cat or rat and crushing/cutting the nerve right above the muscle. That process takes time but sometimes the endplate forms and function is restored in about a month; the actual function is like a switch in that case. One thing I recall reading repeatedly was that there was no specificity nor understanding of the biomechanics/biochemistry of how the nerves reinnervate.

Instead most of the studies were trying to figure that out. The issue is that all of the stuff post-2011 costs $30 or more to get access to and I am not spending upwards of a grand to maybe find the information.

What I do know is that Cowboys doctors are in a good position to know and they did not elect to do a graft, neurolysis, or similar surgical intervention. They can also use MRI or even sonograms to looks to see how the regeneration and reinnervation is progressing.

I'm in the camp that those cryptic tweets that Smith was sending about a month ago and that he hasn't been sending since were about his peroneal reinnervation.

Interesting - results are quite different than the results from the researchers I know.

I do have a theory why the results are different.
Regarding the formation of the endplates, one poster in BTB mentioned that the condition of the neighboring Schwann cells are critical. That is, the longer it took the nerve regeneration to get to the muscle, the worse the results due to the Schwann cells changing over time.

This would suggest my friends' model may be closer to Jaylon's situation than your papers.
Obviously, my researchers' work involved several months before it reached the muscle, which is similar to Jaylon's situation. It seems the work you read did not involve the same time duration because the nerve was severed right next to the muscle.

LOL, who knows... but I will check with my experts and see what they say.

Details on my researchers' work
Involved rodent and primate models in which 2 types of surgeries were performed half way up the arm for direct comparison: (1) end-to-end suturing of severed nerves vs. (2) insertion of severed nerve 'ends' into nerve regeneration growth guides (tubes).
Obviously they were trying to show that the nerve regrowth channel product were superior to end-to-end suturing (standard of care).
The primate results were also definitely worse than rodent results (slower and lower % of recovery).

The nerve was severed and regeneration monitored using behavioral functional recovery.
That is the animal was trained to performed certain tasks before injury.
Then obviously they monitored the ability of the animal to recover its function over time - how much force and how many cycles.

It is interesting that both the injuries in the studies you read and my researchers' work were worse than Jaylon's injuries.
Jaylon's nerve was not crushed nor cut.

Both you and I suspect Jaylon's tweets lol.
I suspect the connection started early August and he was having a little function at that point.
You probably believe that reinnervation started early Oct or so.
I suspect there will be more info on this in the future...

 

[Trouty]

Most of the tests that I have read about talk about taking a cat or rat and crushing/cutting the nerve right above the muscle. That process takes time but sometimes the endplate forms and function is restored in about a month; the actual function is like a switch in that case. One thing I recall reading repeatedly was that there was no specificity nor understanding of the biomechanics/biochemistry of how the nerves reinnervate.

Instead most of the studies were trying to figure that out. The issue is that all of the stuff post-2011 costs $30 or more to get access to and I am not spending upwards of a grand to maybe find the information.

What I do know is that Cowboys doctors are in a good position to know and they did not elect to do a graft, neurolysis, or similar surgical intervention. They can also use MRI or even sonograms to looks to see how the regeneration and reinnervation is progressing.

I'm in the camp that those cryptic tweets that Smith was sending about a month ago and that he hasn't been sending since were about his peroneal reinnervation. The timing lines up.

Thanks, Fuzzy. It's always appreciated, brudda

 

[waldoputty]

Thank you

you are welcome, there is an extra post that is far more technical if you are curious (#109)
dont worry about asking questions if you are curious.
enjoy chatting with fellow fans that are open minded

 

[waldoputty]

I spent five minutes looking and didn't find him...I think some of the picture (the part with Waldo in It) is missing.

Here I am

 

[Risen Star]

yes Im bitter the damn rookie lost his first game
I assume this is your usual sarcasm

Yeah it's sarcasm to suggest the undermining and emasculating of head coaches that has gone on here for two decades has produced poor results.

 

[waldoputty]

Nothing to lose, but if he's practicing, he's on the field and the reporters will be hurting down the story. The team can't just say he's practicing and not have him doing so. Sure he can be "limited", but if he's got to be out on the field.
That's also the case with McFadden btw. They are in the same boat as far as the rules go.

Well he has been doing linebacker exercises for quite a while.
That may already qualify for practicing.
No sure you have to be in the field with the team?

Do you know?

 

[LandryFan]

Don't know what to send you for a prize!!!

A red and white horizontally striped long sleeve pullover shirt would be appropriate!

 

[LandryFan]

Here I am

...Stop it!

 

[waldoputty]

...Stop it!

here

 

[LandryFan]

here

Brings a tear to my eye....

 

[drawandstrike]

Hard to follow your post a little bit, but appreciate the breakdown.

I have no expectations of seeing Jaylon on the field this year and never have, despite what Jerry says. I think the only reason he's not on IR is because they wanted to keep him with the team because they feel he's every bit as talented as Zeke is.

Whether that's true or not remains to be seen, but I definitely feel it's a Jerry decision to not IR him, not a Garrett decision.

Even if he doesn't play this year at all, keeping the guy with the team and making him feel involved is the smart thing to do.

 

[Alexander]

here

Waldo is Efren Herrera. Herrera is Waldo.