New philosophy, or same old stuff

[xwalker]

so you believe Jimmy Johnson held the same standard for each player.
I see you were born yesterday

Jimmy gave Emmitt a lot of slack to not work as much as other players but that was Jimmy's choice not Emmitt's. They all showed up for offseason work including Emmitt even if some didn't do as much when they were there.

I can see both sides on the David Irving issue.

In the salary cap era teams can't just cut every player that has some issues.

On the flip-side Garrett really seems to struggle to deal with difficult players. Jimmy would have turned Greg Hardy into the next Haley but Garrett couldn't deal with Hardy.

Garrett's solution is to have players that were RKGs when they arrived outnumber any difficult players.

I've generally been more Pro-Garrett than most fans. He has implemented better structure/discipline than Wade Phillips had but even Barry Switzer had more player discipline than Wade.

If true full-time assistant Head Coaches existed. Garrett would be great in that role. They could have an old hardarse Head Coach that rarely came out of his office, but when he did would rip into difficult players Jimmy style. Basically the American Mom/Dad in the fifties where Mom would say "When your Dad gets home" and the kids would have legit fear/respect for the Dad that only disciplines them when they do something really bad.

Unfortunately in the Cowboys setup Jerry has been in the Senior Head Coach role but instead of being the hardarse Dad he has been the Grandpa that spoils the Grandkids.

It seems that Stephen is emerging as more of the needed hardarse (Behind the scenes). The scuttlebutt is that neither Jerry or Garrett wanted to dump Dez but Stephen insisted.

They need to put David Irving through a grind in training camp. They should use an old Parcells tactic of playing a player on all possible snaps in a preseason game including some Special Teams snaps.

 

[CouchCoach]

2 of the 3 weakest areas in depth to me are DL, WR and LB. They can't cut either of them because Irving is their 2nd best DL and Williams is there most experienced WR. They do not pay these guys for their brains or habits.

 

[Stash]

How can you have that caption from Jimmy and say to keep Irving after all of this. He shows up overweight and out of shape, then gets suspended? Cut him and cut him now. It will finally send a message to the rest of the team that this crap wont be tolerated. Jesus we cut a guy for a dress code violation for cripes sake.

Because I don't think it's smart to act rashly out of anger. The "message" will be sent when Irving is chewed up and spit out. His talents used for whatever the team can get this year, and any comp pick they get after that. Cutting him now nets them nothing. This year or in the future.

 

[CouchCoach]

There is a reason why the Cowboys lead in suspended players and no one is surprised. We would be surprised if they didn't have at least one player on a time out. It's just a question of who's next.

 

[Ranching]

A common theme this off season was how the organization would be moving forward into a new and different direction. All over the internet, radio, and tv people even claimed that the attitude of Dez, cost Dez his Star. I even heard the same sentiments from SJ and Linehan.

With that being said, why is Red Geezy puting up with embarrassing garbage from guys like Irving and T-Will? I thought he had a philosophy about the RKG's. He talked about how this team was going to progress in a new positive type atmosphere.

In an episode of AON Jerry told the guys "The Star" and it's image was more important than even himself.
I don't buy any of it. I don't buy that JG has more control than fans ever thought. I don't buy the image of "The Star" stands for integrity or is held to any sort of standards. I most certainly don't buy that the organization was moving forward with a new philosophy.

Until guys who are acting like completely worthless human beings are being held accountable, this is the same old bunch, and will have th same old results because of all the distractions!!!

There is a reason 0-23 is the identity of our beloved Cowboys!!!

Yawwwwwn

 

[Aviano90]

A common theme this off season was how the organization would be moving forward into a new and different direction. All over the internet, radio, and tv people even claimed that the attitude of Dez, cost Dez his Star. I even heard the same sentiments from SJ and Linehan.

With that being said, why is Red Geezy puting up with embarrassing garbage from guys like Irving and T-Will? I thought he had a philosophy about the RKG's. He talked about how this team was going to progress in a new positive type atmosphere.

In an episode of AON Jerry told the guys "The Star" and it's image was more important than even himself.
I don't buy any of it. I don't buy that JG has more control than fans ever thought. I don't buy the image of "The Star" stands for integrity or is held to any sort of standards. I most certainly don't buy that the organization was moving forward with a new philosophy.

Until guys who are acting like completely worthless human beings are being held accountable, this is the same old bunch, and will have th same old results because of all the distractions!!!

There is a reason 0-23 is the identity of our beloved Cowboys!!!

You have to try to remain positive. The Cowboys are leading the league in suspensions since 2014. Good job, Cowboys! Don’t let anyone catch up and beat you.

 

[jazzcat22]

There is a reason why the Cowboys lead in suspended players and no one is surprised. We would be surprised if they didn't have at least one player on a time out. It's just a question of who's next.

Actually I don't think the team leads in that area. It just seems that way because we pay attention to it, and not other teams.

 

[GenoT]

I am just wondering who will be the next player to get in trouble.

Hopefully, someone on the fringe...’cause Garrett needs to cut a no-name player every once in a while just to show the rest of the team, not to mention his loyal fans, that he REALLY means business about RKGs.

 

[GenoT]

Actually I don't think the team leads in that area. It just seems that way because we pay attention to it, and not other teams.

We do, unfortunately.

The stat was posted in the Irving suspension thread. No one else is close.

https://cowboyszone.com/threads/david-irving-suspended-4-games.406929/page-13

 

[jazzcat22]

We do, unfortunately.

The stat was posted in the Irving suspension thread. No one else is close.

https://cowboyszone.com/threads/david-irving-suspended-4-games.406929/page-13

I did not read through the mega thread. Figured most would be the same old stuff. So figured my comments goos or bad would mean nothing. LOL.
At one time though, it was perceived we were the most suspended, when actually we were in the middle of the pack. But those stats went back like 10 or 15 years.

The link you provided took me to the thread but on that page I did not see a post of the stats. And I am not going to look through it all either. I will take your word for it.

Regardless, this issue is on Garrett and the team as well for not addressing this ongoing problem with players.
Maybe huge fines need to be given form now on, not just loss of the game checks.

 

[DasSchnitzel]

I keep reading in this thread that these guys are knuckleheads who can't keep their nose clean. That's true about Irving but I don't recall a single other incident with TWill and he's never missed an entire game. Correct me if I'm wrong, I just don't understand why TWill is a part of this conversation.

 

[xwalker]

A common theme this off season was how the organization would be moving forward into a new and different direction. All over the internet, radio, and tv people even claimed that the attitude of Dez, cost Dez his Star. I even heard the same sentiments from SJ and Linehan.

With that being said, why is Red Geezy puting up with embarrassing garbage from guys like Irving and T-Will? I thought he had a philosophy about the RKG's. He talked about how this team was going to progress in a new positive type atmosphere.

In an episode of AON Jerry told the guys "The Star" and it's image was more important than even himself.
I don't buy any of it. I don't buy that JG has more control than fans ever thought. I don't buy the image of "The Star" stands for integrity or is held to any sort of standards. I most certainly don't buy that the organization was moving forward with a new philosophy.

Until guys who are acting like completely worthless human beings are being held accountable, this is the same old bunch, and will have th same old results because of all the distractions!!!

There is a reason 0-23 is the identity of our beloved Cowboys!!!

Most of the talk of change is in regards to offense.

It appears that Linehan is now in full control of the offense. The concept of Linehan running Garrett's offense is now gone.

They dumped Dez due to his lack of production and his hindrance to implementing changes on offense.

They would have continued to tolerate his antics if they were satisfied with him on the field.

In regards to TWill, I don't recall him being in any trouble before.

TWill has never missed a game in 5 seasons.

Also TWill has a guaranteed salary of 3.5M for 2018.

If not for the guaranteed salary I would say that if Hurns and Gallup live up to expectations in the preseason then moving on from TWill in order to keep more young WRs would be a consideration. I expect Gallup to pass TWill from a performance perspective at some point this season.

 

[CouchCoach]

Actually I don't think the team leads in that area. It just seems that way because we pay attention to it, and not other teams.

http://www.businessinsider.com/dallas-cowboys-players-nfl-suspensions-2017-9

They lead by a good margin and that doesn't count this season with Irving scoring 4.

What I do not agree with is this thought that the culture either allows for this or encourages it. Would these players not have caught time outs on other teams? They takes risks on guys like Lawrence, Irving and Ganjory. But I do not buy they create an environment that enables this. They have tried to help players and have not deserted them.

It is puzzling why we lead and everyone wants to blame Booger but I do not think that's fair. Want to blame him for being a gambler with players he already knows are a risk, OK but he does not create an environment that encourages this. They try to help these guys.

This Irving deal is a double edged sword. It opens up the competition to see what else they have but it hurts the team. If I were a member of that D, I would be really pissed with Irving, he let his teammates that were depending on him down. And they'll probably welcome him back with open arms because they need what he can do when he wants to do it.

Guys, when I heard this, I wasn't surprised at all, I have become conditioned. Just one of those things a fan must accept if they are to remain a fan. And it's not like we haven't had a rather storied history with this issue.

 

[CouchCoach]

Most of the talk of change is in regards to offense.

It appears that Linehan is now in full control of the offense. The concept of Linehan running Garrett's offense is now gone.

They dumped Dez due to his lack of production and his hindrance to implementing changes on offense.

They would have continued to tolerate his antics if they were satisfied with him on the field.

Yep, it was like the lines finally crossed between production and personality. Teams will put up with a lot, like the Giants, but that player has to produce.

When Dez was at OSU and got suspended for his senior season, one of his coaches used the term "uncoachable" and I do not think that ever changed. He said whether it's on the field or off, Dez is going to do only what Dez wants to do.

 

[armadillooutlaw]

I understand your frustrations and I share them, but the Cowboys best move is to be patient on both of these situations.

If they cut Williams's today, they're on the hook for $3.5 million in guarantees (or thereabouts), if they wait and the league suspends him, those guarantees are hone and they can cut him with no cap consequences. The right move is to wait for things to play out.

David Irving is obviously an idiot, but a talented idiot. They can use his abilities for whatever games he's available for and simply let him walk next year. Cutting him now would simply be a rash, spite move.

It is frustrating that the two knuckleheads can't keep their acts together, but it makes better sense for the Cowboys to be patient. And it's not a reflection on everyone in the building that two guys are morons, there are far more people trying to do things the right way to be dragged down by these two.

Yeah, it would seriously hurt the defense to cut bait with Irving right now, even if he is knucklehead. He's too good when he's on the field especially inside rushing the passer.
After this year, unless he'll sign a one year deal - like a Ro McClain - he can hit the bricks though. They can't trust him with big money.

 

[xwalker]

Yep, it was like the lines finally crossed between production and personality. Teams will put up with a lot, like the Giants, but that player has to produce.

When Dez was at OSU and got suspended for his senior season, one of his coaches used the term "uncoachable" and I do not think that ever changed. He said whether it's on the field or off, Dez is going to do only what Dez wants to do.

I think one of the big but overlooked issues in the Dez decision was that Linehan wants to move to an offense with a focus on route running.

Even if Dez didn't have character and performance issues last year, he didn't fit the style of offense Linhan wants to run with Dak at QB.

Dez Issues:

1. Limited in scheme and route running.
2. Poor Character/Not-coachable.
3. Poor performance in 2017.
4. Paid too much.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

so you believe Jimmy Johnson held the same standard for each player.
I see you were born yesterday

I think it's fair to say that the situations were a little different in Jimmy's day. When Jimmy was here, you didn't have the same cap situation. You weren't as handcuffed in a lot of ways. Was easier for him to release a guy and bring in another guy who might be as good.

Still, I get your point and I can't way that I am in disagreement.

 

[GenoT]

Jimmy gave Emmitt a lot of slack to not work as much as other players but that was Jimmy's choice not Emmitt's. They all showed up for offseason work including Emmitt even if some didn't do as much when they were there.

I can see both sides on the David Irving issue.

In the salary cap era teams can't just cut every player that has some issues.

On the flip-side Garrett really seems to struggle to deal with difficult players. Jimmy would have turned Greg Hardy into the next Haley but Garrett couldn't deal with Hardy.

Garrett's solution is to have players that were RKGs when they arrived outnumber any difficult players.

I've generally been more Pro-Garrett than most fans. He has implemented better structure/discipline than Wade Phillips had but even Barry Switzer had more player discipline than Wade.

If true full-time assistant Head Coaches existed. Garrett would be great in that role. They could have an old hardarse Head Coach that rarely came out of his office, but when he did would rip into difficult players Jimmy style. Basically the American Mom/Dad in the fifties where Mom would say "When your Dad gets home" and the kids would have legit fear/respect for the Dad that only disciplines them when they do something really bad.

Unfortunately in the Cowboys setup Jerry has been in the Senior Head Coach role but instead of being the hardarse Dad he has been the Grandpa that spoils the Grandkids.

It seems that Stephen is emerging as more of the needed hardarse (Behind the scenes). The scuttlebutt is that neither Jerry or Garrett wanted to dump Dez but Stephen insisted.

They need to put David Irving through a grind in training camp. They should use an old Parcells tactic of playing a player on all possible snaps in a preseason game including some Special Teams snaps.

The link goes directly to page 13...the stat is one down from the top. Most games lost to suspensions since 2014. We’re at 100 games lost...Balt is next at 50-something.

 

[CPanther95]

Does a new philosophy mean the start of a new process, or is it moving to a new phase of the old process?

 

[Captain-Crash]

the process is gone, he's down to timeouts and challenges. They might be the next to go. Then he can be a "walk around clapping coaching".