NFL Implements New Ball Handling Procedures

[Rogah]

As I have already said, the data is important. I am not ignoring the data at all. I have logically looked at the data and it shows that the pressure in the footballs drops more than just what would be expected from due to weather conditions.

If that is your conclusion, then you need to run the numbers again.

BTW, are you also looking at all the lies the NFL office told in this whole thing? Or do they get a free pass?

 

[joseephuss]

If that is your conclusion, then you need to run the numbers again.

BTW, are you also looking at all the lies the NFL office told in this whole thing? Or do they get a free pass?

Still with the condescending tone. I have my opinion. You have yours. Good luck.

 

[Rogah]

Still with the condescending tone. I have my opinion. You have yours. Good luck.

Well, I can't say I know any other way how to tell you that your calculations as they apply to the AFCCG are incorrect. You're certainly entitled to your own opinions, but your not entitled to your own laws of physics.

 

[joseephuss]

Well, I can't say I know any other way how to tell you that your calculations as they apply to the AFCCG are incorrect. You're certainly entitled to your own opinions, but your not entitled to your own laws of physics.

You really can't tell me that isn't a condescending tone. It isn't my own laws of physics. I see the same data set that you do. I see several of the footballs that fall below the anticipated level of pressure based on calculations.

 

[Rogah]

You really can't tell me that isn't a condescending tone. It isn't my own laws of physics. I see the same data set that you do. I see several of the footballs that fall below the anticipated level of pressure based on calculations.

Yes, a couple fell below the anticipated range, but the overall average of all balls is in range. If some sort of systematic deflation was taking place, you would not see the overall average be in range. You would see the deflation as per the laws of physics combined with the illegal deflation. The overall average would be significantly below the expected range.

Surely you're not suggesting that they went to all this trouble and then only deflated a couple of the balls?

 

[Nightman]

Um, I didn't make that graph. The American Enterprise Institute, a Washington DC based think-tank which focuses primarily on economic and public policy, made that report and that infographic.
Each ball was tested twice, using different gauges. They took the average of the 2 readings for each ball. No single ball averaged 10.5 or lower, and only 2 balls averaged below 11.0. In fact, of the 22 readings, only 1 reading was 10.5 - not "some" as you ignorantly claim.

Good Lord people, disagreement is fine, but I am getting pretty sick of having to hold your hands and baby you through things that have been talked about in the media for months.

You post a graph, you vouch for it.

And even averaging the two scores(which is just random), several fall out of the expected range. That means 8 out of 11.

Nothing explains the Colts balls being compliant before, during and after the game and the Pats balls being compliant before and after the game, but not during. Nothing except cheating by the guy called the "deflator".

Your science is a fraud. That is why no one bothers to challenge you.

 

[Nightman]

There is nothing on those pages which says what you say it says. Furthermore, not all the Colts balls were within range. 3 of the 4 balls had at least 1 reading where they were below range, and 1 of the balls had an average which was below range.

Please provide proof of your imaginary timeline.

 

[Rogah]

You post a graph, you vouch for it.

I posted a graph made by a professional think tank with a stellar reputation for public policy analysis. I didn't make the darn thing on my own.

And even averaging the two scores(which is just random), several fall out of the expected range. That means 8 out of 11.

It's actually 9 out of 11, 3 are too high and 6 are too low. But why let facts get in the way?

As I said above, if there was some sort of systematic deflation of the balls you would see the overall average being quite a bit below the expected amount.

Your science is a fraud. That is why no one bothers to challenge you.

So you're saying AEI is incorrect, but you believe the analysis of the group that said 2ndhand smoke doesn't cause cancer?

 

[Rogah]

Please provide proof of your imaginary timeline.

It's in the Wells Report, not to mention it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure it out.

BTW, where is the guy who is only concerned with precedence when determining punishment for players? How come he disappears when talk turns to Brady?

 

[AtlCB]

If that is your conclusion, then you need to run the numbers again.

BTW, are you also looking at all the lies the NFL office told in this whole thing? Or do they get a free pass?

So now the NFL is out to get poor Tom Brady and the Patriots.

 

[Rogah]

So now the NFL is out to get poor Tom Brady and the Patriots.

If the league lied about the Cowboys the way the lied about the Patriots, this forum would go nuclear. Peoples' heads would explode. Even the staunchest Patriots haters in here cannot deny that. It would actually be rather amusing to watch. All the usual suspects in here would go ballistic.

The league's lies are 100 times worse than any minor inconsistencies in text messages sent months apart. Why don't you care about any of those?

 

[BoysFan4ever]

If the league lied about the Cowboys the way the lied about the Patriots, this forum would go nuclear. Peoples' heads would explode. Even the staunchest Patriots haters in here cannot deny that. It would actually be rather amusing to watch. All the usual suspects in here would go ballistic.

The league's lies are 100 times worse than any minor inconsistencies in text messages sent months apart. Why don't you care about any of those?

you'd certainly be happy if that happened to Dallas wouldn't you? You're such a Pats homer! LOL

 

[joseephuss]

Yes, a couple fell below the anticipated range, but the overall average of all balls is in range. If some sort of systematic deflation was taking place, you would not see the overall average be in range. You would see the deflation as per the laws of physics combined with the illegal deflation. The overall average would be significantly below the expected range.

Surely you're not suggesting that they went to all this trouble and then only deflated a couple of the balls?

No, I am not suggesting that the Pats only deflated just a couple of footballs. I never even hinted at that. I said there were several footballs that were found to have a pressure lower than predicted by the Ideal Gas Law. The Wells reported stated that most of the Patriots footballs were under inflated with respect to the anticipated pressure range. Most is more than a couple.

Now one could make an argument that it would only take 2 footballs to get the job done. I would disagree with that argument. I think it would take more than 2; however, I don't think it would take deflating all 12 footballs to accomplish the goal of tampering with the game. I think at the bare minimum it would only have to be 4 footballs, which would still be tough. Ideally a team would need to get at least 6 footballs to their desired pressure and use in rotation during a game. A team does not need to use all 12 footballs during a game. Rotating 6 footballs provides 1 football for every 10 to 13 plays a game. During a 12 play drive, each ball would be used twice. It would not be difficult to keep the 6 desired footballs at the top of the bag and put into rotation. The other non-desired footballs would be at the bottom of the bag. Since the Wells report stated that most of the footballs were under inflated that means that at least 6 footballs were in play. Certainly more than just a couple.

 

[Rogah]

No, I am not suggesting that the Pats only deflated just a couple of footballs. I never even hinted at that. I said there were several footballs that were found to have a pressure lower than predicted by the Ideal Gas Law. The Wells reported stated that most of the Patriots footballs were under inflated with respect to the anticipated pressure range. Most is more than a couple.

Right, and there were also a couple that were higher than where the IGL predicts they should have been. Logically speaking, one of the following is true:

1) They only deflated some of the balls
2) They deflated all of the balls, but 3 of the 11 still measured **above** where science says they should have been
3) They didn't deflate any of 'em

Occam's Razor clearly favors #3. #1 is possible but it's very weak to suggest they went to all this trouble to only deflate some of them. #2 is simply too contrary to the laws of physics.

 

[DallasEast]

Off-topic question: If you're a fan of another team and post on a Cowboys fansite, why not display an appropriate avatar?

Below are a few suggestions for the two confirmable New England Patriots fans who have posted in this thread:

​

Seriously. Take pride in your allegiance already. Or make it neutral like mine. Consider not disrespecting the site.

PS: An avatar of Marvel's Captain America transparently implies Roger Staubach. Please stop sullying the image of a Dallas Cowboys icon. Adopt your own icon. Thanks.

 

[joseephuss]

Right, and there were also a couple that were higher than where the IGL predicts they should have been. Logically speaking, one of the following is true:

1) They only deflated some of the balls
2) They deflated all of the balls, but 3 of the 11 still measured **above** where science says they should have been
3) They didn't deflate any of 'em

Occam's Razor clearly favors #3. #1 is possible but it's very weak to suggest they went to all this trouble to only deflate some of them. #2 is simply too contrary to the laws of physics.

It isn't weak to suggest they only deflated some of the footballs. They don't need to deflate every single football to accomplish their desired goal. It is actually simpler to deflate enough footballs to accomplish what they are trying to accomplish rather than deflating all 12 footballs. This is even more true considering they did have a time constraint between when the refs checked the footballs and getting the footballs to the field. Assuming they didn't deflate any of the footballs then completely discounts all the other parts of the story, such as Brady lying about knowing McNally, the texts and the nickname the deflator. There is just too much there there to ignore. No one should ignore the part physics plays in this, but they also shouldn't ignore all the other aspects as well. It isn't one thing versus the other. It all works together and taking all of that into account then Occams' Razor clearly favors that the Pats tampered with the footballs.

 

[Rogah]

It isn't weak to suggest they only deflated some of the footballs. They don't need to deflate every single football to accomplish their desired goal. It is actually simpler to deflate enough footballs to accomplish what they are trying to accomplish rather than deflating all 12 footballs.

How is that simpler? All the balls get thrown back into the ball bag. You'd have to mark the deflated balls. You'd have to patrol the sidelines to make sure only the "right" balls go into the game.

It would be obscenely more complicated to try and deflate a small number of them instead of just doing it to all of them.

No one should ignore the part physics plays in this, but they also shouldn't ignore all the other aspects as well. It isn't one thing versus the other.

Ah, but it doesn't "all work together." You have some evidence that points to guilt, and some evidence that points to exoneration.

It all works together and taking all of that into account then Occams' Razor clearly favors that the Pats tampered with the footballs.

Anyone applying Occam's Razor would say "the laws of physics dictate the balls should be in a certain range and when you average them out, they were in that range, hence no systematic deflation occurred."

Meanwhile, the people advocating for guilt have to take vaguely worded text messages from months ago and assign all sorts of meaning to those texts which simply is not present.

The forensic evidence supports innocence.

 

[joseephuss]

How is that simpler? All the balls get thrown back into the ball bag. You'd have to mark the deflated balls. You'd have to patrol the sidelines to make sure only the "right" balls go into the game.

It would be obscenely more complicated to try and deflate a small number of them instead of just doing it to all of them.

Ah, but it doesn't "all work together." You have some evidence that points to guilt, and some evidence that points to exoneration.
Anyone applying Occam's Razor would say "the laws of physics dictate the balls should be in a certain range and when you average them out, they were in that range, hence no systematic deflation occurred."

Meanwhile, the people advocating for guilt have to take vaguely worded text messages from months ago and assign all sorts of meaning to those texts which simply is not present.

The forensic evidence supports innocence.

Most of the footballs were found to be at a pressure below the certain range that the laws of physics predicted. That is enough forensic evidence alone to point to some tampering having occurred. Then you add in the aftermath. Both of those things combined indicate something. If most of the footballs were found to be within expected pressures then that would be a different scenario, but even then you couldn't totally ignore everything else that happened. That isn't what happened. Most of the footballs, in fact a vast majority of the footballs were tested and found to be below the expected or calculated pressure.

 

[Rogah]

Most of the footballs were found to be at a pressure below the certain range that the laws of physics predicted. That is enough forensic evidence alone to point to some tampering having occurred.

You're cherry picking the data. Any true, impartial analysis would look at all the balls and fact remains that when you look at all the balls, the overall average is in range.

You admitted above that they wouldn't deflate only some of them. Therefore, if they deflated all of them, then the overall average should be lower than science predicts. It also makes zero sense to say they deflated all of them when some of them were actually *higher* than what is expected.

That isn't what happened. Most of the footballs, in fact a vast majority of the footballs were tested and found to be below the expected or calculated pressure.

Only 6 of 12 balls were below the predicted range. If we include the intercepted ball, 3 were in range and 3 were above. Even if we take away the intercepted ball, 6 of 11 below range is not "a vast majority."

 

[AtlCB]

If the league lied about the Cowboys the way the lied about the Patriots, this forum would go nuclear. Peoples' heads would explode. Even the staunchest Patriots haters in here cannot deny that. It would actually be rather amusing to watch. All the usual suspects in here would go ballistic.

The league's lies are 100 times worse than any minor inconsistencies in text messages sent months apart. Why don't you care about any of those?

The Patriots seem to get more favorable treatment than most clubs. Spygate was a slap on the wrist after they were caught red handed. The deflategate punishment was light as well. If the Patriots can't handle the negative publicity, then stop cheating.