Twitter: NFLPA files Greg Hardy appeal; asks for neutral arbitrator

[Nightman]

Yes. I wonder if they will fine the Patriots for each time they deflated a ball?

that would be 11 draft picks and 11 fines.......lol

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I never said the guy was innocent; for Pete's sake, we all saw the video.

All I am saying is this: Some people believe the NFL should only be able to discipline a player if they are found guilty in a court of law. If the NFL implements that guideline, then that means Ray Rice would not have been disciplined.

Let the record show that I do not support such a guideline. I do not believe the NFL should only be allowed to discipline players found guilty in a court of law - and I hold that opinion no matter what laundry a guy wears on Sunday afternoons.

What do plea agreement mean?

Did the legal system assign Ray Rice a rehabilitation program?

I will say that you are entirely too rigid with your interpretation of case dispositions particularly in light of differing state laws and procedures. Your waving your hands at the simple answer doesn't stop it from being reductio ad absurdum.

 

[Corso]

People aren't saying that exactly. Rice entered into a Pre-trial intevetion program with 12 months probation. That is an acknowledgement of some wrong doing.

Hardy wasn't even tried ultimately. Big difference. AND don't even try to bring up the bench trial. That is nothing more than a glorified arraignment or preliminary hearing.

These Hardy threads make me feel like I'm a metaphorically giant Merry-Go-Round and yet I'm still sucked in.
Like Mikey Corleone in that last Godfather that should not have been made.

 

[Corso]

What do plea agreement mean?

Did the legal system assign Ray Rice a rehabilitation program?

I will say that you are entirely too rigid with your interpretation of case dispositions particularly in light of differing state laws and procedures. Your waving your hands at the simple answer doesn't stop it from being reductio ad absurdum.

Nice Hambrick reference... I do feel strange about you talking about dispositions and differing state laws and procedure when I feel like several posts ago you were posting things under the assumption of Texas State law without regard to the Law in Mass, but I have to admit that I may have read things completely wrong and let that be known.

It may not have been you that I am referencing to completely and I might have things confused, but that was my immediate feeling so...

There.

 

[Nightman]

These Hardy threads make me feel like I'm a metaphorically giant Merry-Go-Round and yet I'm still sucked in.
Like Mikey Corleone in that last Godfather that should not have been made.

I gotta say I have found the whole thing fascinating. From the NC system of justice, to the NFL's bungling of the entire year, to Doty's and the Federal Courts involvement.

The NFL is really trying to make an example of Hardy who is just weird enough to scare them. I don't think he did anything wrong except try to break up and make up with the wrong girl. He has never been violent in the past.

Much more entertaining than FFC trying to make his daughter a star and Andy Garcia a Mafioso

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Nice Hambrick reference... I do feel strange about you talking about dispositions and differing state laws and procedure when I feel like several posts ago you were posting things under the assumption of Texas State law without regard to the Law in Mass, but I have to admit that I may have read things completely wrong and let that be known.

It may not have been you that I am referencing to completely and I might have things confused, but that was my immediate feeling so...

There.

I know he entered a plea agreement so I put down the Texas procedure. I have seen other states use nolo so I stretched.

I do think that you can categorize across states and justifiably conflate a lot of stuff for example Rice's 12 month probation sentence and other similar plea agreements.

 

[Rogah]

What do plea agreement mean?

It doesn't mean he pleaded guilty (like Burmafred said he did)
It doesn't mean he pleaded no contest (like you said he did)

A plea agreement can mean a wide variety of things. In this case, the plea agreement meant that charges against Rice were dropped.

 

[Rogah]

I did not read the entire tet-a-tet between you and Fuzz (although I'm sure I will in the very near future, you both are good and thoughtful posters and I'm certain I will enjoy it) on this matter, but I will say that your point about the NFL and punishment is neither lost, or misaligned with my attitude with the subject, although I would like the subject in all cases and counts to be investigated and judged both fairly and antiseptically- free from bias and agenda and that cannot be said in this matter.

To me that is an injustice. Now I may be coming from left field here on this, on you two, but... crud- I'm 2 sheets to the wind and I just felt like typing something.

Being 2 sheets to the wind is a wonderful time to type something.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It doesn't mean he pleaded guilty (like Burmafred said he did)
It doesn't mean he pleaded no contest (like you said he did)

A plea agreement can mean a wide variety of things. In this case, the plea agreement meant that charges against Rice were dropped.

And he had a long probation and rehabilitation schedule. The state was punitive. Deal with it.

 

[Rogah]

And he had a long probation and rehabilitation schedule. The state was punitive. Deal with it.

He was never found guilty of a crime. Deal with it.

And that's why I do not support the notion that the NFL should only be able to punish players who were found guilty.

 

[Nightman]

I know he entered a plea agreement so I put down the Texas procedure. I have seen other states use nolo so I stretched.

I do think that you can categorize across states and justifiably conflate a lot of stuff for example Rice's 12 month probation sentence and other similar plea agreements.

They messed up in NJ and allowed Rice to enter the Pre Trial Intervention program. The program was intended for first time, non-violent offenders. Because the witness didn't want to cooperate, the State got nervous and took anything over nothing. Less than 1% of those arrested for DV in NJ are offered this program. Rice still has to get counseling and check in for 12 months, so it is clearly an acknowledgement of some wrong doing.

 

[Oh_Canada]

that would be 11 draft picks and 11 fines.......lol

Exactly, somehow don't see it happening unless Kraft doesn't invite Goddell to his next barbecue.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

He was never found guilty of a crime. Deal with it.

And that's why I do not support the notion that the NFL should only be able to punish players who were found guilty.

Again, you are waving your hands at the disposition semantics. The state was clearly punitive with Ray Rice in an agreement that was not vacated, overturned or otherwise removed.

This is very similar to your limitations regarding Hardy. You wave your hands at the bench court ruling and disregard that said ruling was procedurally vacated the moment the DA dropped the case.

Due process is a fundamental right. I think your problem is you don't understand the process. How you liking Garrett?

While I think reduction is ideal, the search for the real atom goes on. Most every idea has factors of higher and lower order that need to be considered to fully understand it. Forest trees etc.

 

[AzorAhai]

He was never found guilty of a crime. Deal with it.

And that's why I do not support the notion that the NFL should only be able to punish players who were found guilty.

Ray Rice is an extremely rare case. Even though he may not have a clear guilt or no contest on his record due to some procedure the courts used, he is as clear as day guilty of the crime. Under his own admission to the league offices, he was guilty. 99% of situations, the NFL will not have crystal clear evidence of a crime being committed where the player also has a clear record. Usually the courts will have the same evidence as the NFL and some form of guilt will be assigned in said court. If the courts don't have evidence that a crime was committed, what leads anyone to believe that the NFL will have more or better evidence? Except for very rare instances I think the NFL should wait for the courts to determine guilt and move forward from there.

People love to say "normal" people get fired for stuff like this all the time, but "normal" people don't have PR issues playing a role in the punishment process. A regular corporation is acting out of concern for many issues, but PR is usually not one of them and I believe that leads to a more fair decision. The NFL is currently doling out punishment to please the media/fans and of course will lean more towards saving face.

For the issue to be fair and unbiased a few steps should be taken. First, remove the commisioners exempt list. Either suspend the player or let the process play out. After that a clear standard of punishment needs to be agreed to for a variety of offenses. If its 6 games, fine. If its a year, thats fine also. Just be consistent with the punishment. They also need a completely unbiased 3rd party who handles all suspensions and appeals. That arbitrator should be agreed upon in the CBA. If you take the PR issues out and have a fair system in place, both sides will likely be unhappy with the suspensions, but thats how it should be. Nobody wins, nobody loses.

 

[Hoofbite]

Can they drag this out so he serves his 10 games no matter what is ruled?

No, but they wouldn't need to drag it out.

He's on the exempt list. Roger decides when he comes off.

 

[Rogah]

Again, you are waving your hands at the disposition semantics. The state was clearly punitive with Ray Rice in an agreement that was not vacated, overturned or otherwise removed.

Sorry but it's not semantics.

If someone says "they should only punish someone found guilty in court" then that means you can't punish Ray Rice. Now like I said, I don't subscribe to that statement that the league should only punish individuals found guilty but that is the logical interpretation of that statement.

Due process is a fundamental right. I think your problem is you don't understand the process.

Well considering you erroneously thought he pled nolo whereas I knew he pled not guilty, sure seems that I understand it better than you.

 

[Rogah]

Ray Rice is an extremely rare case.

The only thing rare about it is that there was video footage, so the media got to drum up all sorts of outrage.

His situation where he assaulted his girlfriend but then she refused to cooperate with authorities because they stayed together (and in his case got married) is not all that uncommon.

His former teammate Terrell Suggs makes Rice look like a Boy Scout. However, there's no footage of Suggs assaulting his girlfriend so there's no media-generated outrage. Quite the contrary; he frequently plays the role of media darling.

 

[AzorAhai]

The only thing rare about it is that there was video footage, so the media got to drum up all sorts of outrage.

His situation where he assaulted his girlfriend but then she refused to cooperate with authorities because they stayed together (and in his case got married) is not all that uncommon.

His former teammate Terrell Suggs makes Rice look like a Boy Scout. However, there's no footage of Suggs assaulting his girlfriend so there's no media-generated outrage. Quite the contrary; he frequently plays the role of media darling.

Which is exactly what I was referring to being rare. In the Ray Rice instance there was more than enough evidence for both the courts and NFL to dole out punishment, yet the courts didn't. Most cases the NFL won't have any more evidence than the courts so why should the NFL supercede the courts? Public outcry should never be the reason for punishing someone and the NFL has found itself in a PR battle leading to punishment not for wrongdoing, but sponsorship and brand management. If the NFL truly cares about the rights and wrongs it should partner with the union to find a 3rd party, unbiased suspension and appeals committee to handle all matters of suspension.

 

[KB1122]

The reason that these cases don't proceed is because prosecutors know their juries are going to get superfans like the ones on this thread who swear the Greg Hardys of the world did nothing wrong no matter what, so why waste office resources.

 

[AzorAhai]

The reason that these cases don't proceed is because prosecutors know their juries are going to get superfans like the ones on this thread who swear the Greg Hardys of the world did nothing wrong no matter what, so why waste office resources.

Thats asinine. You can make that statement about any criminal case. For example, say this guy murdered his wife. Well lets just pick jurors who hate there ex wife. This guy robbed a bank? Well let's just put a bunch of poor people on the jury. The reason "these cases" often don't go to trial is because the victim is seeking a payday or doesn't want to lose their meal ticket by testifying. Suggesting a jury is swayed by "super fans" is ridiculous and frankly shows a complete lack of knowledge of the way court cases actually work. It sounds like you just have an axe to grind against Hardy and anyone who isn't swayed by the media and half facts. As bad as Ray Rices incident was I think he should have only been suspended 2 games based on prior precedence. Does that make me a Ray Rice super fan?