Norm: I don't believe Jerry Jones will let this team be disciplined

[ScipioCowboy]

That doesn't make any sense?

If he hired a GM and they went worse than 13-3 and #1 in the playoffs, would he be blamed for that?

Was he responsible for 13-3 or not responsible? Was it luck or not?

I'm not following the logic. All I see is subjective bias.

Doesn't make any sense? Seriously?

Because you seem so concerned about the presence of subjective bias, let's try to infuse some objectivity into this discussion: For the sake of argument, let's remove completely the variables of Jerry Jones and Dallas Cowboys from the equation, and replace them with 'unidentified GM' and 'unidentified team.'

Let's say that I walk up to you, and say, "Hey, Sultan. Unidentified team hasn't won a playoff game in 12 years, and they've had the same unidentified GM for that entire time. How do you assess unidentified GM's performance?"

Speaking as a completely objective observer, how would you honestly answer this question?

Better yet, what are your opinions on Al Davis and Dan Snyder, both of whom have actually won playoff games over the past 12 years?

I give Jerry full credit for the 13 win season. I also give him full culpability for the organization's failure to assemble a playoff winning team in 12 years.

The vast majority of owners in this league -- at least the competent ones -- would fire a GM whose team was a paltry 12-12 over the past 24 games after failing to win a playoff game in 12 years.

Unfortunately, Jerry's pride blinds him to the reality that he's incapable of assembling playoff winning team in modern times.

 

[SultanOfSix]

What else is new?

Certainly not you. I mean, is there a post where you haven't denigrated Jerry in some manner?

Someone stated that he's still putting his ego above winning. Where is the evidence for this since Parcells was hired? He didn't want him to leave, but he left on his own. He hired Wade because of the continuity of the 3-4 defense that BP instilled and the resulting season was 13-3 and a #1 seed in the playoffs. There was no real reason to fire anyone. Last year we drafted well, but suffered from injuries and other issues. While it is arguable that Wade could have been fired, no one was really blaming GM Jerry as a result of last season. The team was 8-3 at one point and suffered a December collapse like it seems to do now as a pattern, even under Parcells' tenure. So, I'm wondering where he's putting his ego above winning?

 

[UVAwahoos]

Doesn't make any sense? Seriously?

Because you seem so concerned about the presence of subjective bias, let's try to infuse some objectivity into this discussion: For the sake of argument, let's remove completely the variables of Jerry Jones and Dallas Cowboys from the equation, and replace them with 'unidentified GM' and 'unidentified team.'

Let's say that I walk up to you, and say, "Hey, Sultan. Unidentified team hasn't won a playoff game in 12 years, and they've had the same unidentified GM for that entire time. How do you assess unidentified GM's performance?"

Speaking as a completely objective observer, how would you honestly answer this question?

Better yet, what are your opinions on Al Davis and Dan Snyder, both of whom have actually won playoff games over the past 12 years?

I give Jerry full credit for the 13 win season. I also give him full culpability for the organization's failure to assemble a playoff winning team in 12 years.

The vast majority of owners in this league -- at least the competent ones -- would fire a GM whose team was a paltry 12-12 over the past 24 games after failing to win a playoff game in 12 years.

Unfortunately, Jerry's pride blinds him to the reality that he's incapable of assembling playoff winning team in modern times.

Ditto.

And he's gonna live for a long time.

 

[SultanOfSix]

Doesn't make any sense? Seriously?

Because you seem so concerned about the presence of subjective bias, let's try to infuse some objectivity into this discussion: For the sake of argument, let's remove completely the variables of Jerry Jones and Dallas Cowboys from the equation, and replace them with 'unidentified GM' and 'unidentified team.'

Let's say that I walk up to you, and say, "Hey, Sultan. Unidentified team hasn't won a playoff game in 12 years, and they've had the same unidentified GM for that entire time. How do you assess unidentified GM's performance?"

Speaking as a completely objective observer, how would you honestly answer this question?

Better yet, what are your opinions on Al Davis and Dan Snyder, both of whom have actually won playoff games over the past 12 years?

I give Jerry full credit for the 13 win season. I also give him full culpability for the organization's failure to assemble a playoff winning team in 12 years.

The vast majority of owners in this league -- at least the competent ones -- would fire a GM whose team was a paltry 12-12 over the past 24 games after failing to win a playoff game in 12 years.

Unfortunately, Jerry's pride blinds him to the reality that he's incapable of assembling playoff winning team in modern times.

My argument was never with respect to Jerry's entire tenure as a GM. You're dealing with a personality who isn't in a similar situation as other GMs in the league, so using the same standard of measure and any solutions to the issue isn't going to apply. I was always talking about a specific context, which I detailed in my all of my most recent previous posts: Jerry putting his ego above winning since Parcells was hired.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

My argument was never with respect to Jerry's entire tenure as a GM. You're dealing with a personality who isn't in a similar situation as other GMs in the league, so using the same standard of measure and any solutions to the issue isn't going to apply.

So, in essence, you're asserting that Jerry shouldn't be held to the "same standard of measure" as other GMs because of his his personality and his role as both owner and GM.

Fascinating.

By what standard should Jerry be judged?

 

[UVAwahoos]

My argument was never with respect to Jerry's entire tenure as a GM. You're dealing with a personality who isn't in a similar situation as other GMs in the league, so using the same standard of measure and any solutions to the issue isn't going to apply. I was always talking about a specific context, which I detailed in my all of my most recent previous posts.

This is actually the root of the problem. The fact is, we as diehards, have absolutely ZERO control of anything that goes on with this organization. Not sure how many fans will actually legitimately band together for any sort of cause.

Our unique situation of a having an egocentric owner who believes he can manage the team will always haunt us and ruin us. There was some light with the BP days, but then Jerry started meddling again with the TO signing and probably other stuff behind the scenes so Parcells got the heck out of town.

The only constant thing...Jerry...is what will ruin any true fan's health if he allows it to enough.

 

[SultanOfSix]

So, in essence, you're asserting that Jerry shouldn't be held to the "same standard of measure" as other GMs because of his his personality and his role as both owner and GM.

Fascinating.

No. You know that was never part of the argument. That was simply a statement of fact interjected into the discussion. A solution of "fire the GM" isn't going to work here.

I've never disputed that Jerry has sucked as GM. He was horrible in the late 90s. But, he's definitely changed and improved, and I just don't think that he's really putting his ego above winning, especially since hiring Parcells, and in the most recent set of seasons.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

No. You know that was never part of the argument. That was simply a statement of fact interjected into the discussion. A solution of "fire the GM" isn't going to work here.

Nor was this part of the argument. We're simply making a statement of fact:

Jerry is a poor GM -- a fact that the Cowboys' regular season and playoff record bears out.

We've offered no commentary regarding the feasibility of him firing himself.

I've never disputed that Jerry has sucked as GM. He was horrible in the late 90s. But, he's definitely changed and improved, and I just don't think that he's really putting his ego above winning, especially since hiring Parcells, and in the most recent set of seasons.

So, if not ego, what mechanism is preventing Jerry from recognizing his ineptitude as GM and hiring another one?

 

[Quarterback Coach]

LOL. I tried to say that JJ was gonna kill this team until he gave up the GM thing but I got flamed for it. Bittersweet I say!!!

We need a coach/staff that will step in only if JJ steps down as the GM.

I got blasted for screaming at coaches and players...funny how we are now lock in step with the multitudes...

 

[SultanOfSix]

Nor was this part of the argument. We're simply making a statement of fact:

Jerry is a poor GM -- a fact that the Cowboys' regular season and playoff record bears out.

We've offered no commentary regarding the feasibility of him firing himself.

So, if not ego, what mechanism is preventing Jerry from recognizing his ineptitude as GM and hiring another one?

Stop diverting the issue and letting your ego in winning an argument interfere in your judgment. You know very well what I was arguing.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

too much use of the word "ego" in this thread

 

[ScipioCowboy]

Stop diverting the issue and letting your ego in winning an argument interfere in your judgment. You know very well what I was arguing.

Yeah.

I'm the one with the "ego" whose "diverting the issue."

I merely asked a question. I'm sorry that you didn't have an answer.

 

[Cheap Shot Artist]

Nor was this part of the argument. We're simply making a statement of fact:

Jerry is a poor GM -- a fact that the Cowboys' regular season and playoff record bears out.

We've offered no commentary regarding the feasibility of him firing himself.



So, if not ego, what mechanism is preventing Jerry from recognizing his ineptitude as GM and hiring another one?

The saddest part of today, besides JJ still breathing..

We will be in the same position next week as the Commanders were this week...

Having to defeat a winless football team to "salvage" our season

As I mentioned a week ago--we're right along side Washington and Oakland.

In football hell

A morbid part of me wants to see us lose next week. The sooner Captain Kangaroo is out of here, the better

 

[SultanOfSix]

Yeah.

I'm the one with the "ego" whose "diverting the issue."

I merely asked a question. I'm sorry that you didn't have an answer.

Oh please dude.

I merely asked people to provide evidence since the hiring of Parcells, (which I believe is strong evidence for the fact that he doesn't put his ego above winning), where he has done so.

I don't need to answer a diversion of the issue.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

Oh please dude.

I merely asked people to provide evidence since the hiring of Parcells, (which I believe is strong evidence for the fact that he doesn't put his ego above winning), where he has done so.

I don't need to answer a diversion of the issue.

And I answered your plea for evidence.

It's not a diversion simply because you had no rebuttal.

 

[SultanOfSix]

And I answered your plea for evidence.

It's not a diversion simply because you had no rebuttal.

Yeah, because a black and white response of essentially 'fire the GM' is a legitimate response to the actual argument.

I'll believe that when you do.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

Yeah, because a black and white response of essentially 'fire the GM' is a legitimate response to the actual argument.

I'll believe that when you do.

I never cited "fire the GM" as a reason.

I asserted that Jerry's ego prevents him from recognizing his deficiencies as GM and hiring a new one.

Why else do you think Jerry retains himself as GM? Because he's doing such a bang-up job?

I'll believe that when you do.

 

[Bach]

Certainly not you. I mean, is there a post where you haven't denigrated Jerry in some manner?

Someone stated that he's still putting his ego above winning. Where is the evidence for this since Parcells was hired? He didn't want him to leave, but he left on his own. He hired Wade because of the continuity of the 3-4 defense that BP instilled and the resulting season was 13-3 and a #1 seed in the playoffs. There was no real reason to fire anyone. Last year we drafted well, but suffered from injuries and other issues. While it is arguable that Wade could have been fired, no one was really blaming GM Jerry as a result of last season. The team was 8-3 at one point and suffered a December collapse like it seems to do now as a pattern, even under Parcells' tenure. So, I'm wondering where he's putting his ego above winning?

I see, the old "injuries and other issues" argument. Guess what? All teams have injuries. That team fell apart in crunch time and there was ZERO reason to bring Wade back.

You act like Jerry changed once he hired Parcells, but the day Parcells left, Jerry went back to being large and in charge. In fact, he hired Garrett before he even hired a HC, much like he operated in the late 90's when he controlled the coaching staff and ruled his puppets.

Wade was brought in for one main reason, Jerry wanted to continue the 3-4 that Parcells installed and Wade was a 3-4 coach. Much like Gailey was mainly and OC with a HC title, Wade was brought here mainly to be a DC and given the HC title. Garrett, Houck, Campo were all Jerry hires.

This team is digressing and unless we get another strong HC in here with pull like Parcells had or better yet, like Jimmy had, then we will continue to digress. Jerry's "way" isn't working and never has worked. We've only had success when someone like Jimmy or Parcells were here. We had some residue success immediately after both left, but eventually it falls apart.

 

[SultanOfSix]

I never cited "fire the GM" as a reason.

I asserted that Jerry's ego prevents him from recognizing his deficiencies as GM and hiring a new one.

Why else do you think Jerry retains himself as GM? Because he's doing such a bang-up job?

I'll believe that when you do.

I posted the following:

Huh? I mean, we went 13-3 the following year after he left and had #1 seed in the playoffs. What has he done since then that has shown that he's put his ego over winning?

And you responded with:

Failing to hire a real GM.

Not a real answer to the question and you know it.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

I posted the following:



And you responded with:



Not a real answer to the question and you know it.

This is incorrect. The exchange went like this:

Huh? I mean, we went 13-3 the following year after he left and had #1 seed in the playoffs. What has he done since then that has shown that he's put his ego over winning?

Failing to hire a GM.

That fact that Jerry has yet to hire a GM indicates that he's incapable of putting his ego behind him...unless you believe his reasons for retaining himself as GM are rooted in good performance.

The answer was perfectly valid.