Odd WR out

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by CouchCoach, Jun 17, 2021.

  1. Corso

    Corso Offseason mode... sleepy time

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    Thir yeth thir!
  2. buybuydandavis

    buybuydandavis Well-Known Member

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                       Targets     Receptions     Yards   TD's     Target Conversion
    Cooper            130            92              1,114     5                  71%
    Lamb              111             74                935     5                   67%
    Gallup            105             59                843     5                   56%
    If you use code, /code in brackets, fonts stop being proportionately spaced, so you can count characters out to get the columns aligned.
    Still pretty tedious, because it won't be matching up with what you see in the editor in your browser, but at least it's well defined and controllable.

    Note that I only *tried* to align the first column of numbers.
    Aerolithe_Lion likes this.
  3. buybuydandavis

    buybuydandavis Well-Known Member

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    If guys like Gallup can make 17mil, Cooper's 20mil is going to look like a *great* deal.
    Amarillofan82 likes this.
  4. buybuydandavis

    buybuydandavis Well-Known Member

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    After this year, Cooper has no guaranteed money and only 6mil dead money overhang. 2022 is only guaranteed if we still want to keep him in March 2022. His yearly cash is flat in dollars with only 10mil signing bonus, so this year's cap hit looks big. By AAV, Cooper is 4th, and we've only started the 3rd year of his contract. Contracts are set to balloon with the ballooning cap from the new tv deals.

    Go check how much dead money those other players have hanging over their contracts. That's how contracts are usually structured, to look cheaper in early years and carry a big cap hit in future years. We didn't do that with Coop. He's going to look like a no risk bargain in coming years, with no guaranteed future seasons and no dead money hanging over his contract.
    Amarillofan82 likes this.
  5. buybuydandavis

    buybuydandavis Well-Known Member

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    I'm a Cooper fan too but it's a fair point about his injury history, particularly the chronic fascitis. I don't see trading him though.

    Without Cooper, we've got no deep speed, and no one who commands doubles. He's the straw that stirs the drink.
    Amarillofan82 and CouchCoach like this.
  6. garyo1954

    garyo1954 Well-Known Member

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    Oh, so we need a few more "no risk bargains" we can all brag about and no Super Bowls?
    "No risk bargains" don't mean anything. I'll take a Super Bowl any day while somebody else tears up the league with stats and big names (and overpriced players)..

    Don't get me wrong, he's a good receiver, no doubt a good guy, but he wasn't a difference maker with the Raiders and he's not here.
    What kind of claim to fame that he is "he's a true #1?" What does that even mean?
    And no matter how you choose to look at his earnings, its not justified by being the best receiver (if you think he is) on the Cowboys.

    NFL's highest paid wide receivers (average salary per year):

    • 1. Cardinals WR DeAndre Hopkins: $27.3 million
    • 2. Falcons WR Julio Jones: $22 million
    • 3. Chargers WR Keenan Allen: $20 million
    • 4. Cowboys WR Amari Cooper: $20 million
    • 5. Saints WR Michael Thomas: $19.3 million
    • 6. Chiefs WR Tyreek Hill: $18 million
    • 6. Browns WR Odell Beckham Jr.: $18 million
    • 8. Bears WR Allen Robinson: $17.9 million
    • 9. Buccaneers WR Mike Evans: $16.5 million
    • 10. Rams WR Robert Woods: $16.25 million

      Your choice.
  7. GimmeTheBall!

    GimmeTheBall! Junior College Transfer

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    Our most productive WR?
    Why, matey, you so disappoint me.
  8. garyo1954

    garyo1954 Well-Known Member

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    You simply must try the lamb with green mint sauce!
    Too die for I say.
  9. Aerolithe_Lion

    Aerolithe_Lion Well-Known Member

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    Jerry’s bookie
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  10. garyo1954

    garyo1954 Well-Known Member

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    Amari beat him in a footrace to the bank.

    I don't know. Sometimes the metrics we use as fans to prop up our players is beyond me. Been trying to think of the SLOWEST receivers who ever played the game. Fred Bilentnikoff comes to mind, and Danny Abramowicz, of whom one scout said, "the guy is slower than the trees."

    But there's no need in that. Rice and Anquan Bolden ran 4.71, Fitzgerald and Cris Carter at 4.63, and Steve Largent who ran high 4.7 or low 4.8. Mostly straight line speed is overrated since, well, rarely is anyone on a football field running straight lines. Even if they were, the difference between a 4.3 and 4.7 is about........2 feet.

    Dwight Clark ran a 4.6 but Bill Walsh pointed to him as having good functional speed, i.e. in full pads, on gameday, his speed was good enough to make the plays.
    Just for giggles here's the rules for great wide receivers.....

    • Be mentally disciplined: do the things that take no talent. Know where to line-up, the snap count, and your personal responsibility (whether it's a route or choosing the correct person to block).
    • Get off the ball: work on a quick and efficient first step. You will often have a defender in your face so you'll have to know how to get their hands off of you and run around them without getting thrown off your route.
    • Run great routes: you do not necessarily have to run fastest route or fake people out with your cuts (Jerry Rice is a great example); But your timing has to be impeccable. Your there at the same time and place always. Count your steps. Know how far your steps carry you. Understand the angles at which your cutting relative the placement of the snap. Do not let defenders get you off your tracks. This takes definite skill and definitely a lot of practice
    • Learn to block: you will be doing this nearly half the game. A lot of talented wide-receivers think they are too good to have to block. I guarantee every NFL receiver at least at one time became a very proficient if not excellent blocker
    • Catch the ball: while being distracted. When thrown hard. When thrown with touch. When high, low, to the side, when about to be annihilated, when wet, when cold!
    • Protect the football: fumbling is the fastest way out of the starting line-up. Secure the football high and tight and pray.
    • And.......Be smart: understand your frame is more fragile than the middle line-backer.
    Amarillofan82 likes this.
  11. Aerolithe_Lion

    Aerolithe_Lion Well-Known Member

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    Henry Ruggs ran a 4.27, and people said that Waddle ran a bad 4.37 because in practice he could keep up or even beat Ruggs in sprints.

    Yet partway through the season last year for Alabama, their deep threat Waddle went down with injury. So they asked Devonta Smith to step up and be the deep receiver when he’s not being the everything else receiver. He didn’t run a 40, but people were predicting him to run a 4.30-4.50, a step behind the other two but good speed regardless. However during those games in Waddle’s absence, Smith was getting the same separation, scoring on the same deep balls, putting up the same or better production as Waddle who could run by the DBs Smith isn’t even as fast as. The other Alabama receivers weren’t as good at what Waddle did, not Jeudy, not Ruggs, not even the younger dude (Metchie?). But Smith crushed it Because of his field awareness, his route running, and that he was comfortable and confident in that circumstance. So I know exactly what you’re talking about. There are receivers, and then there are RECEIVERS.

    As for Coop… at the end of the day, there is 1 Deandre Hopkins. 31 teams will never get Deandre Hopkins, but they get the same salary cap as the team who does. So teams are going to pay lesser receivers Deandre Hopkins money, or the threat is they’ll go somewhere else that’ll pay them Deandre Hopkins money.

    At the time Dallas paid Cooper, he was the best they could do at the position… so it made sense to pay him whatever he was asking for. That’s no longer the case now. The issue becomes “how much total investment do you make in passcatchers?” If Gallup gets 15m$ a year, Cooper gets 20m$ a year, but Lamb is clearly better than both, what exactly are we doing here? You’re going to have plays in 22 formation that have 35m$ in receivers on the bench. Even plays in typical 21 or 12 that’ll have 20m$ on the bench.

    Is that the best thing for Dallas to contend for a Super bowl? Rookie Diggs is the best player in your defensive backfield by a country mile but you’re paying your receiver room 40+m$ in total?
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
    garyo1954 likes this.
  12. ghst187

    ghst187 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think we can pay Gallup next offseason and then have to turn around and pay Lamb season or two after that unless Gallup takes #3 money in the 9-11m range and I expect someone will outbid us because he’s clearly a very good #2 and I’d guess will end up getting in the 15m range
  13. AsthmaField

    AsthmaField Outta bounds

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    Don’t discount the QB play they got at Alabama. Mac Jones was extremely accurate and did a terrific job of getting the ball in stride to his WR’s. Tua simply wasn’t as good with his accuracy, timing, and playing within the scheme. Ruggs would have been significantly better with Jones IMO. Mac ran that offense exactly the way Saban wants his QB to. It is why I wasn’t surprised to see Jones end up in New England. Belichick wants the same thing out of his QB.

    Ruggs never got to play with Jones and Waddle only really got 4 games with him (he was hurt on the opening kickoff of their 5th game).

    In those 4 games, Waddle had total receiving yards of:

    8 for 134 yards - average of 16.8y/catch
    5 for 142 yards - average of 28.4y/catch
    6 for 120 yards - average of 20.0y/catch
    6 for 161 yards - average of 26.8y/catch

    For a per game average of:

    6.3 for 139.3 yards - 22.1y/catch

    In the eight games that Waddle missed, Smith had a per catch average of 15.0 yards. Not quite as effective on deep balls. And as a guy in SEC territory who watched Alabama closely, their offense got more crisp, disciplined and just overall better as the year went on. Mac Jones got better and better. It really is a shame we didn’t get to see what Waddle would have done with an entire season with Jones at QB. It would have been something to see. That offense was a machine by December.

    Plus, that is without considering that Smith was there taking passes away from Waddle in the first 4 games, while Smith was clearly the number one guy once Waddle went down. They relied on Smith heavily in the final 8 games. Waddle playing without Smith would have also seen a sharp increase in his numbers

    I do understand what you’re saying about Smith’s route running and overall proficiency allowing him to be a deep threat despite his average speed… and I even agree with you somewhat. The young man’s dedication and skill at his craft is impressive. If Pinkston did it… Smith certainly can. However, Devonta simply isn’t, nor will he ever be the deep threat that Waddle is… particularly in the NFL where the competition will be on a more level playing field than that at Alabama. Waddles speed will still terrify NFL DB’s… Smith’s will not.

    I do like Smith and think he’ll succeed in the NFL, despite his limitations. He’s just too smart and dedicated not to… but Waddle was drafted significantly higher for a reason. The guy has the musculature and the raw speed to kill in the NFL.
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2021
  14. Aerolithe_Lion

    Aerolithe_Lion Well-Known Member

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    Waddle though was almost exclusively the deep ball guy. Smith was running those routes when he wasn’t the doing his normal thing as the Y or the X. I didn’t mean to imply he only replaced Waddle and someone else took Smith’s role. His ypc are going to be lower as he wasn’t used as one-dimensionally.
  15. AsthmaField

    AsthmaField Outta bounds

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    Waddle wasn’t as one dimensional as people might think. He runs other routes and he does it well. A lot of his longer receptions were underneath throws where he runs through the defense and takes to the house.

    One of the things that I liked a lot about Waddle was that he ran a lot of different routes and is a pretty complete WR, that also has sprinter’s speed. He’s not just a track guy. He makes tough catches and is a WR first with WR hands.

    However, to your point, he’s probably not as good as Smith at the overall route tree.

    To be honest, it is difficult to grade either one because the Alabama offense was just schemed so good and their opponents were so overmatched on a weekly basis. Mac Jones was pretty incredible too and gave them RAC opportunities constantly. I don’t expect Waddle to take a lot of short catches and run through the defense like he did for the Tide.
    Aerolithe_Lion likes this.
  16. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    Cooper is the only WR who brings outside speed, I like Gallup but in the end I think he will be gone via FA.
  17. McKDaddy

    McKDaddy Well-Known Member

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    He is clearly not only the #1 on the team but one of the top WR in the league. He "sets the table" for the other players because he can beat the defense with route running. He doesn't have to be schemed open.

    Just enjoy it while he is on your team.
    Amarillofan82 likes this.
  18. McKDaddy

    McKDaddy Well-Known Member

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    your best deal will come IF a contending team decides mid season they need a WR and are willing to a pay a little more
    Scotman likes this.
  19. USArmyVet

    USArmyVet Well-Known Member

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    I think you also have to consider salary as Cooper is a drain with his $20M/year salary hit. Personally I say keep Lamb and Gallup while adding a quality slot WR and trade Cooper for what you can and use the savings to re-sign Gallup while also redirecting some money towards the defense or OL as one needs major help and the other is getting much older.
  20. Diehardblues

    Diehardblues Well-Known Member

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    Probably depends on success we have this year and the impact they make. If they become the 3 Amigos coming close to hoisting the Lombardi then Jethro might try to retain all 3.

    But based on what we’ve seen thus far assuming Gallup is signable not wanting to hold us for ransom , I’d look for us to let Cooper walk. Gallup could be looking for that top 5 caliber contract someone without Cooper and Lamb might be willing to pay.

    So while I’d lean towards keeping Gallup and Lamb, I think there’s a possibility we keep all 3 with Lamb still under his rookie contract. And while I might opt out of Cooper first , Gallup might have his sights set elsewhere as the #1 receiver.

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