Oral Argument for Zeke's case 10/2

[pugilist]

 

[drawandstrike]

I see I'm going to have to explain how the appeals process works.

The side that appealed - in this case the NFL - is claiming to the 5th Circuit that Judge Mazzant made an incorrect ruling based on PROCEDURE.

Just as it did in Mazzant's court - where remember the NFL's argument was soundly rejected - thus far the NFL is making the *exact same argument* to the 5th Circuit Appeals panel.

And the argument they are making is this: Zeke's legal team being allowed to file in Texas was incorrect procedure since the NFL's arbiter, Henderson, had not made his ruling yet. The Texas court should *not* have accepted the filing and should have waited for Henderson to rule first. The NFL is arguing until the arbiter makes a ruling, no court anywhere can have jurisdiction. By going early & going first, Zeke's legal team did something 'unfair'.

This is tantamount to the NFL claiming until it's own employee tips them off the ruling is coming down, and the NFL's own lawyers get to file first and pick the venue and the judge, the procedure is incorrect.

Remember, Judge Mazzant raked the NFL and it's lawyers over the coals for the blatant rank hypocrisy they showed in making this argument, using their very own filings against them last Monday.

This argument of the NFL failed on the merits in Mazzant's courtroom. After being pestered incessantly by the NFL in the intervening 2 weeks, the 5th Circuit panel has now agreed to let the NFL make it's case as to why Mazzant's ruling should be overturned & jurisdiction of this case taken away from him.

You don't get to essentially retry the case at the appeal hearing. You have a burden of proof of demonstrating wrong/incorrect procedure was followed by the Judge based on what happened in the courtroom earlier.

I'm being completely accurate when I describe what the NFL is attempting here as a 'Hail Mary'. For the 5th Circuit to reverse Mazzant & take the case away from him, some error or mistake on the judge's part is going to have to be convincingly demonstrated.

Making the argument "We always get to file first and the wrong procedure has happened when the player's lawyers get to pick the venue." didn't work in Mazzant's courtroom and I stand by my statement that's it's *highly unlikely* it's going to work in the 5th Circuit.

 

[ghst187]

The NFL really, really has a tough row to hoe here.

They should because the truth is not on their side.

 

[Thomas82]

In the end, this suspension will be upheld. It's just a matter of when it begins. The NFL, per an agreed upon standard with the NFLPA, has the right to discipline it's employees following the stipulations of the CBA. It will boil down to that point and the NFL will come away with a favorable ruling. That ruling could still be a few courts away.

This will give a black eye to the NFL though and the next CBA will be much more NFLPA leaning IMO. The Goodell era is coming to an end.

I read on ESPN.com a few days ago that an extension is in the works.

 

[ThreeandOut]

I read on ESPN.com a few days ago that an extension is in the works.

Jerry's comments have been very interesting the past couple of weeks. Last week he was very supportive of Goodell. However, yesterday he denied the reports that the extension was imminent.

 

[Gaede]

I see I'm going to have to explain how the appeals process works.

The side that appealed - in this case the NFL - is claiming to the 5th Circuit that Judge Mazzant made an incorrect ruling based on PROCEDURE.

Just as it did in Mazzant's court - where remember the NFL's argument was soundly rejected - thus far the NFL is making the *exact same argument* to the 5th Circuit Appeals panel.

And the argument they are making is this: Zeke's legal team being allowed to file in Texas was incorrect procedure since the NFL's arbiter, Henderson, had not made his ruling yet. The Texas court should *not* have accepted the filing and should have waited for Henderson to rule first. The NFL is arguing until the arbiter makes a ruling, no court anywhere can have jurisdiction. By going early & going first, Zeke's legal team did something 'unfair'.

This is tantamount to the NFL claiming until it's own employee tips them off the ruling is coming down, and the NFL's own lawyers get to file first and pick the venue and the judge, the procedure is incorrect.

Remember, Judge Mazzant raked the NFL and it's lawyers over the coals for the blatant rank hypocrisy they showed in making this argument, using their very own filings against them last Monday.

This argument of the NFL failed on the merits in Mazzant's courtroom. After being pestered incessantly by the NFL in the intervening 2 weeks, the 5th Circuit panel has now agreed to let the NFL make it's case as to why Mazzant's ruling should be overturned & jurisdiction of this case taken away from him.

You don't get to essentially retry the case at the appeal hearing. You have a burden of proof of demonstrating wrong/incorrect procedure was followed by the Judge based on what happened in the courtroom earlier.

I'm being completely accurate when I describe what the NFL is attempting here as a 'Hail Mary'. For the 5th Circuit to reverse Mazzant & take the case away from him, some error or mistake on the judge's part is going to have to be convincingly demonstrated.

Making the argument "We always get to file first and the wrong procedure has happened when the player's lawyers get to pick the venue." didn't work in Mazzant's courtroom and I stand by my statement that's it's *highly unlikely* it's going to work in the 5th Circuit.

Thanks for the breakdown. This is good to know

 

[diefree666]

No, I Totally understand Zeke's side here

Just saying that the NFL is a corporation with its own rules, which apparently take precedence over the spirit of law, and I feel the deck is stacked against Zeke here. And it sucks

Now if the court rules that way then they violate the fundamental fairness right that is a basic HUMAN right as well as a Constitutional right. You cannot sign away that right; just like you cannot agree to become a slave.

This idea that the CBA allows unconstitutional actions is really pathetic.

 

[diefree666]

In the end, this suspension will be upheld. It's just a matter of when it begins. The NFL, per an agreed upon standard with the NFLPA, has the right to discipline it's employees following the stipulations of the CBA. It will boil down to that point and the NFL will come away with a favorable ruling. That ruling could still be a few courts away.

This will give a black eye to the NFL though and the next CBA will be much more NFLPA leaning IMO. The Goodell era is coming to an end.

look up fundamental fairness. Then you will realize how wrong you are.

 

[jazzcat22]

I have not read through all the posts yet. But from what I read elsewhere, this may not bode well for Zeke. The hearing is for jurisdiction, not for if the stay should be upheld or denied. Does anyone have any info on this.

 

[CooterBrown]

I'll put in my two cents worth:

Don't confuse jurisdiction with venue. Venue is which court the case belongs in. The 5th Circuit is not making any ruling on the filing in NY.

In order for any court anywhere to do anything it must have personal jurisdiction and subject matter jurisdiction. (This is a simplistic explanation for non-legal petsons) Personal jurisdiction means that at least one of the parties must reside within the court's boundries. Zeke resides in the Eastern District of Texas and the NFL operates in the Eastern District of Texas. Personal jurisdiction is well established. Subject matter jurisdiction means that this is a matter for a court to decide. When the 5th Circuit asks about subject matter jurisdiction it is essentially saying, "tell us why the court system should be involved in this."

On the "appeal to the Supreme court" stuff. The SCOTUS refuses far more cases than they hear. If you aren't happy with a court of appeals decision, you can ASK the SCOTUS to consider your case but more often than not they just say "you had your day in court. Go away." If the matter has mation wide impact, or if two or more courts of appeals disagreed on the same type of case the SCOTUS is more likely to hear it.

Constitutional Rights stuff. Individuals or corporations cannot violate a constitutional right. The Constitution limits governments and governmentally sanctioned actions. The NFL is a business, not a governmental agency. (It is a very unique business, so it is a little different, but it is a business),

With all that said, you have to consider the court. The 5th Circuit has 14 active judges. 7 from Texas and the rest from Mississippi or Louisiana. Of course I have no idea which of them are football fans or which teams they follow. More Houston judges on this court than any other city. Not all 14 judges will hear the case. It is usually a panel of 5 judges. How those judges are assigned to a case, I have no idea.
People who reside in the 5th Circuit are pretty anti-union. The judges may not be and since they are appointed for life, they are usually uninfluenced by popular opinion. This court, like this region, is usually very conservative and pro-business.

This how I think this will play out: I think the 5th Circuit will deny the NFL's request for a stay because Zeke
can show irreparable harm And the NFL can't. I think the NY court will respect that decision and will hold their case until the Texas court rules. I think the Eastern District will rule in Zeke's favor and the NFL will again appeal to the 5th Circuit. I think Zeke plays all year with this cloud looming over him.

Who wins in the end is just a guess. Flip a coin. But I am certain the SCOTUS will refuse to consider this case.

 

[Ghost12]

I do feel it's almost a foregone conclusion that the NFL will ultimately win and Zeke will be suspended. I feel that it would benefit the cowboys if the that suspension started in 2018 as opposed to this season. My rationale is that it gives the Cowboys and offseason to prepare for 6 games without Zeke. I don't think they're are as well equipped to handle a Zeke suspension this season for a litany of reasons.

It does seem as though that today's news makes it a larger possibility that Zeke will serve his suspension THIS season. Right?

I believe so, yes.... although I still like his chances at getting a restraining order from the NY Federal Courts..... the issue of irreparable harm so clearly favors Elliott that I think he could get his order in a heartbeat, even with a case that would be a very weak one in that district.

 

[Ghost12]

Be Gone, troll. Your recent join date and short history of posting almost EXCLUSIVELY in Zeke threads is as dubious as they come.

I find sports law fascinating, but there is no trolling here. Just an informed opinion, which I enjoy sharing and discussing with the group. I was happy when the league lost, and would love to see them lose again, but I have been saying all along their best chance at winning in CA5 is to attack jurisdictional grounds. They have a strong case with that argument.

Please explain to me how that is trolling.

 

[Ghost12]

Strong case? Based on what? The whole ripeness thing which has already sailed?

I do not know quite what you mean by "already sailed" but yes, the matter of ripeness (or lack thereof) is a strong argument.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I do not know quite what you mean by "already sailed" but yes, the matter of ripeness (or lack thereof) is a strong argument.

 

[Ghost12]

That logic does not apply to this situation.

Elliott's legal team made it crystal clear in their original filing that the arbitrator's "ruling" was irrelevant to said filing. The "unfairness" to Elliott had occurred in full by the conclusion of the hearing (but before the arbitrator's decision).

Based on the evidence, the judge agreed that the case was indeed ripe prior to Henderson's official decision (which was clearly just a formality).

Yes, I know what Elliott's legal team argued. And now a panel of CA5 judges will determine if that argument is valid or not.

 

[Ghost12]

so let's recap:

Goodell hands down suspension -----> NFLPA appeals to district court (Mazzant)
District court (Mazzant) grants PI -----> NFL appeals to 5th Circuit

so what's next based on outcomes, zone law dogs help us out:

5th Circuit grants stay -----> NFLPA appeals to SCOTUS?
5th Circuit grants stay -----> NFLPA can't appeal, case moves to New York for further litigation? (based on ruling more appeals?)
5th Circuit doesn't grant stay -----> NFL appeals to SCOTUS?

I don't think for a second this case will go to SCOTUS, but it is worth noting they love making rulings based on questions of jurisdiction. There were a lot of jokes over the fact that SCOTUS heard the Anna Nicole Smith divorce case, but that was an example of them deciding jurisdiction (and not the merits of the case itself). That was different in that it was state courts versus federal, but it was still a matter of jurisdiction.

 

[Nightman]

I'm being completely accurate when I describe what the NFL is attempting here as a 'Hail Mary'. For the 5th Circuit to reverse Mazzant & take the case away from him, some error or mistake on the judge's part is going to have to be convincingly demonstrated

If CA5 threw out the case over venue and ripeness then they would have to start all over again, possibly in Texas or maybe in NY....... but either way it would be a waste of time and resources since the underlying issue has been ruled on and appealed already

It isn't like the NFL wins if the CA5 nullifies the injunction.....EE would immediately run to file an emergency injunction and the NFL would fight it.......or deja vu all over again..... we would be right back to where we were Sept 4th

 

[Ghost12]

[

If CA5 threw out the case over venue and ripeness then they would have to start all over again, possibly in Texas or maybe in NY.......

Given that the NFL has already filed in NY, I imagine that's where the case would go if CA5 throws it out on those grounds.

 

[Nightman]

This idea that the CBA allows unconstitutional actions is really pathetic.

The CBA already violates several constitutional rights

There is no Free Speech- players have been fined and suspended for things they have said and worn

There is no 5th amendment right to no self-incrimination- in the Personal Conduct Policy it says that players have to answer all charges and cannot plead the Fifth

Players give up the right to privacy when they agreed to random drug tests, no subpoena needed

The Draft itself is an illegal restriction of one's trade and the ability to make money and work were they want

there are probably more but I don't have the time to look them all up

 

[Nightman]

[
Given that the NFL has already filed in NY, I imagine that's where the case would go if CA5 throws it out on those grounds.

Maybe.......but EE is the one being harmed and he is in Texas..... the NFL has yet to prove they have any case at all