Patriots don't fit the paradigm

[Future]

They undermined their own success by cheating, and there is plenty of evidence that they did so. The problem is the NFL is effectively a monopoly and they took care of it "in house", i.e. they burned the evidence. There is nothing an independent investigation can do about it. Unfortunately for the Pats, the evidence still exists and repetitive denials of it having no impact on their success is hogwash. If it didn't have the latter, then they wouldn't have done it.

https://cbspittsburgh.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/bryan-oleary.mp3

Blah blah blah...lots of teams do crap like that. A handful of QBs and come out and blatantly said they've done the same thing in altering the balls. Wasn't it the Chargers a couple of years ago who were using Stickem or something on their jerseys?

Thinking that it was the difference between them winning the SB or not is absolutely silly. It's irrelevant.

 

[joseephuss]

• 6th Round QB (Albeit possibly the greatest QB of all time)
• Two small possession guys (Edelman and Amendola) as their WR1 and WR2
• Their starting RB was picked up on waivers during the season and is basically a journeyman
• Average OL
• Average to slightly below average pass rush
• Leading rusher had 412 yards for the season

I don't love the Patriots, I don't even like them, but it's hard not to admire so much about them.

Julian Edelman and Brandon Lafelle are the Patriots #1 and #2 wide receivers while Gronkowski is their #1 receiving target. Their running backs are also used quite a bit in their passing game. Amendola is their 5th option.

Their offensive line is better than average. They took a few games to come together and overcome some early injuries, but that is a good group.

 

[joseephuss]

And they do it sending decent players down the road and keeping the Amaendolas of the NFL.

They overpaid for Amendola and have been disappointed in his production.

 

[SultanOfSix]

Blah blah blah...lots of teams do crap like that. A handful of QBs and come out and blatantly said they've done the same thing in altering the balls. Wasn't it the Chargers a couple of years ago who were using Stickem or something on their jerseys?

Thinking that it was the difference between them winning the SB or not is absolutely silly. It's irrelevant.

Blah blah blah.

The Patriots still cheated and they still do. And yes, any unfair advantage will have an impact, especially in close games, which will have a butterfly effect depending upon the game, and so does taint their SBs. That is why all organizations keep detailed statistics of various things that improve or worsen winning percentage. It's called cause and effect.

 

[Future]

Blah blah blah.

The Patriots still cheated and they still do. And yes, any unfair advantage will have an impact, especially in close games, which will have a butterfly effect depending upon the game, and so does taint their SBs. That is why all organizations keep detailed statistics of various things that improve or worsen winning percentage. It's called cause and effect.

You know what makes a bigger difference than "cheating" - which is awfully close to gamesmanship anyways...

The Pats consistently get more out of average players than anybody. They got a couple of big plays from Malcolm freaking Butler last night. Legarrate Blount was completely unwanted in Pitt and is a great runner for them. They were the only people in the football world who saw the value in trading Mankins and picking up Wright. They know how to use Shane Vereen as well as NO used Sproles, despite the fact that he isn't nearly as good. They get more bang for their buck out of Rob Ninkovich than just about any team gets out of any one defensive player. They use a new gameplan seemingly every week and are better than anybody at exploiting other teams' weaknesses. They lost Jerod Mayo for the season and didn't miss a beat. Their DL, other than Wilfork, is a bunch of nobodies. Their OL is supposedly a weakness, but the best D in the league couldn't sniff Brady.

They have built a culture where players who go there are free to be who they want, as long as they show up and do their job, just like in Seattle. They have a staff that builds around what they have rather than trying to fit players into roles they weren't meant for. The confidence from the staff permeates into the players and that's why you get guys nobody has heard of performing so well for them all the time. As a result, they have built a culture of success. Their mindset is to win, like it or not, and they do it differently than everybody else...that's why nobody likes them.

Instead of all that has been achieved in that regard, and how that is the reason they win, people continually just whine and tattletale on them over stupid **** like PSI.

 

[SultanOfSix]

You know what makes a bigger difference than "cheating" - which is awfully close to gamesmanship anyways...

The Pats consistently get more out of average players than anybody. They got a couple of big plays from Malcolm freaking Butler last night. Legarrate Blount was completely unwanted in Pitt and is a great runner for them. They were the only people in the football world who saw the value in trading Mankins and picking up Wright. They know how to use Shane Vereen as well as NO used Sproles, despite the fact that he isn't nearly as good. They get more bang for their buck out of Rob Ninkovich than just about any team gets out of any one defensive player. They use a new gameplan seemingly every week and are better than anybody at exploiting other teams' weaknesses. They lost Jerod Mayo for the season and didn't miss a beat. Their DL, other than Wilfork, is a bunch of nobodies. Their OL is supposedly a weakness, but the best D in the league couldn't sniff Brady.

They have built a culture where players who go there are free to be who they want, as long as they show up and do their job, just like in Seattle. They have a staff that builds around what they have rather than trying to fit players into roles they weren't meant for. The confidence from the staff permeates into the players and that's why you get guys nobody has heard of performing so well for them all the time. As a result, they have built a culture of success. Their mindset is to win, like it or not, and they do it differently than everybody else...that's why nobody likes them.

Instead of all that has been achieved in that regard, and how that is the reason they win, people continually just whine and tattletale on them over stupid **** like PSI.

That's nice and all. While it provides support to the notion that they have an organization that exceeds others because they get "the most" out of these so-called average players, it can also provide support to the notion that they have mechanisms in place for providing unfair advantages for themselves to enable these players to succeed better there than elsewhere. Persistently being the only team that can do this as an "exception" to thirty two other teams in the league that are just as professional as they are - even if so-called "bad" organizations are excluded - simply doesn't add up probabilistically. This is even truer in a time when dynasties simply cannot be built due to free agency and parity is the norm that it makes their six SB appearances in less than fifteen years hard to believe without them doing something that gives them a selective advantage under the table.

 

[Rogah]

Instead of all that has been achieved in that regard, and how that is the reason they win, people continually just whine and tattletale on them over stupid **** like PSI.

Amen. The only reason "deflategate" got anything more than a blurb is because it was the Patriots. Vikings did the same thing and no one cared. Falcons might have been pumping noise into their stadium - where's the national headlines and incessant whining about integrity of the game?

 

[40yrpatsfan]

That's nice and all. While it provides support to the notion that they have an organization that exceeds others because they get "the most" out of these so-called average players, it can also provide support to the notion that they have mechanisms in place for providing unfair advantages for themselves to enable these players to succeed better there than elsewhere. Persistently being the only team that can do this as an "exception" to thirty two other teams in the league that are just as professional as they are - even if so-called "bad" organizations are excluded - simply doesn't add up probabilistically. This is even truer in a time when dynasties simply cannot be built due to free agency and parity is the norm that it makes their six SB appearances in less than fifteen years hard to believe without them doing something that gives them a selective advantage under the table.

Pats fan here. Fascinating discussion. Future, you da man. Sultan, you need to stop believing the media. I'd bet my only-born that you don't know squat about Spygate, cause you sure don't know squat about DeflateGate, which is imploding on a daily basis and will go away shortly.

Aside from that, thanks for the many compliments for the Pats in this thread. It's equal parts Brady and Belichick.

 

[Danger]

Belichick is good, but let's see how good he is without Brady.

It's another example of a good/great coach growing or catching lightning in a bottle with a good/great QB, just like Starr/Lombardi, Noll/Bradshaw, Walsh/Montana, Johnson/Aikman, etc.

My guess is that when Brady retires, Belichick walks himself.

Um in 2009 (I think), the Pats lost Brady for the year and they still went 11-5 with Matt Cassel. Do you think we could still to 11-5 if Romo was gone for the year?

Belichick is one of the best coaches of all time. Cheating or not. His schemes and ability to plug in players are just as vital as Tom Brady.

 

[percyhoward]

26th ranked Defense this year

I don't know what you saw that said they ranked 26th in this year, but it wasn't yards or points.

They ranked 8th in points allowed per drive, and 10th in defensive pass rating.

 

[SultanOfSix]

Pats fan here. Fascinating discussion. Future, you da man. Sultan, you need to stop believing the media. I'd bet my only-born that you don't know squat about Spygate, cause you sure don't know squat about DeflateGate, which is imploding on a daily basis and will go away shortly.

A Pats fan defending the Pats cheating. Shocking. Next thing you'll tell me is that Matt Walsh didn't really exist and there were no video tapes.

 

[Future]

Pats fan here. Fascinating discussion. Future, you da man. Sultan, you need to stop believing the media. I'd bet my only-born that you don't know squat about Spygate, cause you sure don't know squat about DeflateGate, which is imploding on a daily basis and will go away shortly.

Aside from that, thanks for the many compliments for the Pats in this thread. It's equal parts Brady and Belichick.

Just to be clear, I think they cheated.

I just think it's irrelevant to their success.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

Just to be clear, I think they cheated.

I just think it's irrelevant to their success.

They got busted for taking sideline video of the other teams' defensive coaches sending in hand signals - aka Spygate. Nobody's denying that. But that's it. And lost in the hysteria was that the rule against that was new in 2006, there was no such rule when they won their SB's in 2001-2004. So call it whatever you want, it was not relevant to any season where they actually won anything.

 

[khiladi]

They got busted for taking sideline video of the other teams' defensive coaches sending in hand signals - aka Spygate. Nobody's denying that. But that's it. And lost in the hysteria was that the rule against that was new in 2006, there was no such rule when they won their SB's in 2001-2004. So call it whatever you want, it was not relevant to any season where they actually won anything.

There ie emphatic proof they got busted in 2006 at the beginning of the season and a memo was sent out and they got busted again in 2007 after being warned in 2006. So they violated the rules a year after the fact. Thus, the idea that Bill Bellichek misinterpreted the rules is a LIE.

In fact, in 2007, the beginning of the year, Norv Turner in September of 2007, right when the news broke about Mangini, when visiting Gilette stadium locked up the playbooks in lockers. Everybody essentially acknowledged that what they were doing was pretty much unheard of, while acknowledging they weren't sure how much it could of helped. And that just shows how ignorant most people were to their cheating.

And the guys doing the stealing were dressed up as COACHES, so not only were they potentially taping from the sidelines, they could have possibly been taking audio as well. Mangini knew exactly the techniques being employed, because he pointed out the guy specifically who was dressed up in 2007. The Pats were doing it for years.

Further, the Matt Walsh tapes were about taping the walk-throughs of practices which is illegal. What makes you think that was legal during the SB years? So if they dress up as coaches in 2006 and still violate the rules in 2007 after the memo, what makes anyone think that they weren't dressing up and taping practices of walk-throughs? They just started happening to disguise themselves in 2006?

And implicitly the Butler INT implicates BB again through his own words when he said they knew it was essentially coming, because Seattle does it all the time, and they practiced for it specifically and told the defense to look out for it. If taping walk-throughs have no bearing on winning a game, than why is BB saying knowing the actual play is important? Only a homer would try and downplay Spygate.

 

[khiladi]

BTW, prior to this year, Tom Brady's stats in the play-offs from his last Super Bowl win to this were:

Record: 7-5

23/36, 64% completion percentage, 256 yards, 2.17 touchdowns, and 1.42 interceptions.

The kicker about the greatest QB of all time, minus the alleged controversy, this guy had more 3 INT games than 0 INT games in these 12 play-off games.

Prior to this, when the Patriots were clearly cheating and stealing defensive signals, he holds the 358 consecutive passing attempts without throwing an INT record. One of the main changes that actually happened in 2008, after Spy-gate:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000...alls-new-coachtodefense-communications-system

Much like the offensive helmet transmitter, the "live" defensive helmets will employ a frequency system that has 268 million different encryption codes, making it indecipherable to anyone trying to listen in. Several other clubs, including the Bills and Packers, tinkered with the new technology during offseason workouts. Players and coaches from both teams are excited about the innovation.

But I'm sure that's just coincidental. This technologically still doesn't address the issue of employing alternate frequencies which plagued the Patriots, but then again:

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/07/i-spy-a-problem/?_r=0

In addition to locker rooms and practices, Goodell says he wants the league to be able to conduct unannounced spot checks of coaching boxes and in-game communication systems (headsets).

This latter one BTW, was a proposal that was happening when Spectre was breathing down the back of Goodell and the NFL. But I'm sure that radio frequency issue was also made up..

Let's not forget the irony that even during this era, after Spy-gate his HOME record since 2007 was still 34-7 yet he was playing his worst play-off ball. I'm sure that's just a normal statistical anomaly in relation to the rest of the league as well.

 

[locked&loaded]

They throw a tonnn of short passes, which is kind of annoying to watch, but I wish the cowboys did it more.

That being said, they have had pretty damn good defenses for the part of the last 15 years. Obviously Brady, is key. Their line is tricky, but for the most part they keep a pretty unathletic QB upright .

 

[DallasCowboys2080]

They throw a tonnn of short passes, which is kind of annoying to watch, but I wish the cowboys did it more.

yeh we sure could use more dink and dunks and slants to 88.

 

[Rogah]

BTW, prior to this year, Tom Brady's stats in the play-offs from his last Super Bowl win to this were:

Record: 7-5

23/36, 64% completion percentage, 256 yards, 2.17 touchdowns, and 1.42 interceptions.

The kicker about the greatest QB of all time, minus the alleged controversy, this guy had more 3 INT games than 0 INT games in these 12 play-off games.

We can play the game of cherry picking stats all night long if you'd like.

Between Montana's 2nd and 3rd Super Bowl Championships, in the playoffs he was 0-3 with per-game stats of:

15 for 29 (52% completion percentage), 168 yards, 0.00 Touchdowns with 1.33 Interceptions.

See? Cherry picking is fun!

 

[cowboyeric8]

I keep waiting for Nors to show up. Lol. All the Pats loving going on around here.

 

[DallasCowboys2080]

I keep waiting for Nors to show up. Lol. All the Pats loving going on around here.

i guess you're missing the threads where there are a lot of comments denouncing the pats because of their cheating ways? haha

the pats have some positive aspects about their team despite the cheat cloud they are constantly under.