Penn State Sex Abuse Scandal (Indictment Post #144, "Pimping" Allegations Post #442)

[TheDude]

Frankly, this didn't happen "within" the football program. The 2002 incident happened after Sadusky was retired. At this point there are only three names that have been in anyway implicated from the program. Paterno, McQueary and the AD. I hardly think any of the other assistants, hundreds/thousands of players at that time or since had anything to do with the incident or perceived coverup. It is hardly the "Program".

It's hardly the entire program.

The AD and Head Coach (for 46 years) is just about the entire program from that school's perspective.

Sandusky still came to the school, football facilites, etc. since 2002-

I need to clarify my position. Again, I think the school has done mostly correct moves since this broke. I think the NCAA still has to impose something or IT will come across (irnically i know) as the most irresponsible and unjust organization.

If the NCAA does impase sanctions - from cancelling game(s), bowls etc, then so be it.

 

[bbgun]

Okay, it happened on the Penn State campus, so lets eliminate all Penn State classes.

It happened in State of Pennsylvania facilities, so lets fire all State of Pennsylvania goverment employees.

After all, if being associated with the facility this occurred at is the standard by which everyone is judged in this matter, a lot of heads should roll.

Or we could sensibly and logically limit the penalties to the football program alone, where the evil originated. Nah, let's be insensitive and play some meaningless football games while paying lip service to the kids at the same time.

 

[Stautner]

The AD and Head Coach (for 46 years) is just about the entire program from that school's perspective.

Sandusky still came to the school, football facilites, etc. since 2002-

I need to clarify my position. Again, I think the school has done mostly correct moves since this broke. I think the NCAA still has to impose something or IT will come across (irnically i know) as the most irresponsible and unjust organization.

If the NCAA does impase sanctions - from cancelling game(s), bowls etc, then so be it.

You're kidding, right? If the school is misguided enough to think the AD is the entire program, why should the kids in the program suffer for that? You keep telling us all how bad a handful of individuals are, and your way of dealing with it is to punish couple of boatloads of people who neither have done anything wrong, nor who have been associated with any wrongdoing by the handful of individuals you are discussing.

An executive at a company commits a crime - maybe harasses a woman or foreces himself on a cleaning lady - a subordinate sees it and reports it to the VP. who reports it to the CEO, and they both cover it up. Eventually it all comes out. Should all the employees at the company be fired?

 

[TheDude]

Wow, what a ridiculous analogy.

First of all, with the Catholic Church those that committed the crime and perpetuated the cover up are punished - you don't take the church away from the parishoners and the priests who had nothing to do with any of it.

Really??? all of them????

Second, what happened with the Catholic Church was not a specific incident, it was an ongoing problem that permeated throughout the Church years and years - it was a culture that was overlooked in the church. Had it been one priest at one Church it would have been horrendous, but it wouldn't have been a stigma on the entirety of the Catholic Church.

You analogies get more laughable every time.

And since there is only 1 Penn State, with really no business for 10 year olds to be trotted through locker rooms and showers and team trips, hotels, etc. There SHOULD have been a little more notice - especially after 1998. This is Happy Valley, not Manhattan - not a very dynamic news worthy or lost in the crowd town.

moving a priest from the youth service to the adult service is about exactly the same response Penn St did w/ Sandusky

As for failing the recruits, see my questioins in my previous post.

Another thing I have to say about that is that its ridiculous to say that because a school sometimes falls short in their treatment of recruits that makes it okay for them to fail the recruts completely. That's like saying that because an boss sometimes is a little too hard on an employee that makes it okay for the boss to fire all employees even if they did everything they were asked to do.

Hardly ridicuous...


Institutions, relative power and saving face are fostered through institutions.

Again, if Sandusky was a liberal arts head, this would have been over long ago

 

[TheDude]

Okay, it happened on the Penn State campus, so lets eliminate all Penn State classes.

It happened in State of Pennsylvania facilities, so lets fire all State of Pennsylvania goverment employees.

After all, if being associated with the facility this occurred at is the standard by which everyone is judged in this matter, a lot of heads should roll.

:laugh2: We give...The football program is beyond reproach...nothing to see here. Its all good.

 

[Stautner]

Or we could sensibly and logically limit the penalties to the football program alone, where the evil originated. Nah, let's be insensitive and play some meaningless football games while paying lip service to the kids at the same time.

The evil did not originate from the football program - that's ridiculous. It originated with an individual, Sandusky. This was not a football related crime and had nothing to do with how the football pogram was run. If a corporate executive at IBM was found to have raped several of the cleaning ladies over time would that be an evil that was originated from IBM, or just the location where an individual carried out his evil intentions? If the VO and CEO covered it up would you fire everyone that worked at that branch of IBM as punishment?

What you do is fire the people involved, and perhaps the school/corporation likely holds some civil liability and has to pay damages to affected parties, and it loses some credibility, but you don't punish all those not involved who are counting on the school/coporation to build their future. It makes no sense to force the school/corporation to reneg on their responsibilities to those it recruited to the company.

 

[TheDude]

You're kidding, right? If the school is misguided enough to think the AD is the entire program, why should the kids in the program suffer for that? You keep telling us all how bad a handful of individuals are, and your way of dealing with it is to punish couple of boatloads of people who neither have done anything wrong, nor who have been associated with any wrongdoing by the handful of individuals you are discussing.

An executive at a company commits a crime - maybe harasses a woman or foreces himself on a cleaning lady - a subordinate sees it and reports it to the VP. who reports it to the CEO, and they both cover it up. Eventually it all comes out. Should all the employees at the company be fired?

Or Andrew Fastow, Ken Lay, et al perpetuate a crime and force the insolvency of a company causing 10s of 1000s to lose their job.

Life lesson, s--t rolls down hill and spreads.

But I'll sign up for your - "everyone in life should be guaranteed a fair life and be subject to no negative actions if not by their own hand." If you promise to enforce it, I'm on board. And I have grievances that need redressing

Until then, I will live in the real world, and like I said, not be too concerned about 1,2,10 football games when a multi-year multi-child raping was institutionally given a blind eye as to not have to "deal with the fallout"

 

[Stautner]

:laugh2: We give...The football program is beyond reproach...nothing to see here. Its all good.

No, I did not say that. The football program absolutely should be held responsible for anything that the football program does that is in violation of accepted practices within the football program, or if you can prove the coverup of Sandusky was perpetuated by coaches and players alike, then by all means, hit the program as hard as is appropriate. But that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about individuals who didn't handle an individual criminal matter properly, not a problem within how the football program is run.

What you are talking about is guilt and punishment by association. If a corporate exec. commits a crime and a handful of people cover it up, fire all the employees. Makes perfect sense, right?

 

[Stautner]

Or Andrew Fastow, Ken Lay, et al perpetuate a crime and force the insolvency of a company causing 10s of 1000s to lose their job.

Life lesson, s--t rolls down hill and spreads.

But I'll sign up for your - "everyone in life should be guaranteed a fair life and be subject to no negative actions if not by their own hand." If you promise to enforce it, I'm on board. And I have grievances that need redressing

Until then, I will live in the real world, and like I said, not be too concerned about 1,2,10 football games when a multi-year multi-child raping was institutionally given a blind eye as to not have to "deal with the fallout"

Again, another ridiculous analogy. With Enron it was not the governing body (the SEC) who shut them down, and in fact the SEC wanted desperately to find a way to keep the doors open to protect the innocent employees and investors. On the other hand, you are advocating the governing body over athletics (the NCAA) shut the door on Penn State football without regard for the innocents.

Another ridiculous aspect is that the downfall of Enron was based on business practices, not on a criminal matter unrelated to the how the business was run. Conversly, the Sandusky matter was unrelated to how the football team was run.

Your analogies get worse every time.

 

[TheDude]

No, I did not say that. The football program absolutely should be held responsible for anything that the football program does that is in violation of accepted practices within the football program, or if you can prove the coverup of Sandusky was perpetuated by coaches and players alike, then by all means, hit the program as hard as is appropriate. But that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about individuals who didn't handle an individual criminal matter properly, not a problem within how the football program is run.

What you are talking about is guilt and punishment by association. If a corporate exec. commits a crime and a handful of people cover it up, fire all the employees. Makes perfect sense, right?

First, this "business" analogy you love really doen't work with a state sponsored institution. I gave you the enron example where innocent employess were hurt. Boycotts happen, business close, pay lawsuits, downsize etc.

The football "program" is pretty much the AD and Head coach and school president.

You would like us to believe the following hypothetical

• Sandusky gives a recruit clothes and money
• A coach, DA, alert the AD and Head coach (Paterno of 46 years) that he broke rules
• The offender gets retirement and use of facilities, etc
• The NCAA imposes sanctions and forfeits a bowl game (i.e. USC).
• Innocent playerson the team are hurt but that's ok - rules are there

Now substitute the first bullet with "allegedly rapes a child" and the fourth bullet with "NCAA states child rape imposes no further sanctions from our body" and your position is - "That seems right - no rules on institutional rape cover ups"

 

[bbgun]

The evil did not originate from the football program - that's ridiculous. It originated with an individual, Sandusky. This was not a football related crime and had nothing to do with how the football pogram was run. If a corporate executive at IBM was found to have raped several of the cleaning ladies over time would that be an evil that was originated from IBM, or just the location where an individual carried out his evil intentions? If the VO and CEO covered it up would you fire everyone that worked at that branch of IBM as punishment?

Bullcrap. The perp was a longtime football coach who had access to the football (not volleyball or basketball) facilities, and whose actions were witnessed by a fellow football coach, who says he immediately reported what he saw to the head football coach. You don't need a trail of breadcrumbs to see that this leads back to, and is wholly contained within, the football program.

What you do is fire the people involved, and perhaps the school/corporation likely holds some civil liability and has to pay damages to affected parties, and it loses some credibility, but you don't punish all those not involved who are counting on the school/coporation to build their future. It makes no sense to force the school/corporation to reneg on their responsibilities to those it recruited to the company.

So does one of the kids have to die or something before you do the right thing? Professional teams that had nothing to do with the 9-11 tragedy voluntarily canceled a good chunk of their seasons, even though they had no direct connection to or culpability for the attacks. Conversely, ex and present Penn State officials had everything to do with the abuse and the subsequent coverup, yet they continue to play games as if nothing malicious has transpired. I think that's deplorable.

 

[TheDude]

Again, another ridiculous analogy. With Enron it was not the governing body (the SEC) who shut them down, and in fact the SEC wanted desperately to find a way to keep the doors open to protect the innocent employees and investors. On the other hand, you are advocating the governing body over athletics (the NCAA) shut the door on Penn State football without regard for the innocents.

Another ridiculous aspect is that the downfall of Enron was based on business practices, not on a criminal matter unrelated to the how the business was run. Conversly, the Sandusky matter was unrelated to how the football team was run.

Your analogies get worse every time.

not quite, the downfall of enron was the cover up of accounting and shell companies by a few at the top - the same thing happened at healthsouth, worldcomm, etc. Innocent people lost their jobs. You fail to address that point of the analogy since it blows your arguement apart.

Private business and a "state college, top 10 football program in a college town in the middle of nowhere Pennsylvania." are hardly comparable to the amount of protection the community gives.

i grew up in knoxville Tennessee, went to school with Heath Shuler, knew Dwayne Goodrich, Carl Pickens and many others. there is so much crap that gets covered up, it is numbing - but nothing like this.

I never said "shut it down" but if the NCAA seemed to not care much about innocent SMU players or Auburn players when they got the death penalty. If the Penn state offers or is required to forfeit games - so be it. Others have been penalized for far less. Do you dispute that?

 

[casmith07]

What about the kids?

 

[Stautner]

Bullcrap. The perp was a longtime football coach who had access to the football (not volleyball or basketball) facilities, and whose actions were witnessed by a fellow football coach, who says he immediately reported what he saw to the head football coach. You don't need a trail of breadcrumbs to see that this leads back to, and is wholly contained within, the football program.



So does one of the kids have to die or something before you do the right thing? Professional teams that had nothing to do with the 9-11 tragedy voluntarily canceled a good chunk of their seasons, even though they had no direct connection to or culpability for the attacks. Conversely, ex and present Penn State officials had everything to do with the abuse and the subsequent coverup, yet they continue to play games as if nothing malicious has transpired. I think that's deplorable.

Wow, this makes zero sense. Again, if a criminal act occurs by an exec at IBM on IBM grounds, and it is completely unrelated to how IBM is run as a business, and a couple of other IBM people know about it and cover it up, does that mean IBM is responsible for it all, and the SEC should shut the doors on IBM? Or is the criminal and those who covered it up that should be punished? Should all the employees lose the foundation on which they were building their careers at that point, or should the perpetrators be dealt with by the police, and the IBM employees keep their jobs under new management and closer scrutiny of that management?

I guess this is the way it is today. Can't just blame the direct culprit or culprits, gotta distribute blame to anyone and anything that had an association with the culprit or culprits, regardless of who it hurts or how innocent they are.

 

[bbgun]

Wow, this makes zero sense. Again, if a criminal act occurs by an exec at IBM on IBM grounds, and it is completely unrelated to how IBM is run as a business, and a couple of other IBM people know about it and cover it up, does that mean IBM is responsible for it all, and the SEC should shut the doors on IBM? Or is the criminal and those who covered it up that should be punished? Should all the employees lose the foundation on which they were building their careers at that point, or should the perpetrators be dealt with by the police, and the IBM employees keep their jobs under new management and closer scrutiny of that management?

I guess this is the way it is today. Can't just blame the direct culprit or culprits, gotta distribute blame to anyone and anything that had an association with the culprit or culprits, regardless of who it hurts or how innocent they are.

No, but I'm pretty sure that IBM would cancel the office Xmas party or like frivolities. As far as analogies go, yours are inept. You're correct that IBM can't survive without workers, but Penn State can absolutely survive without two or three football games.

 

[TheDude]

Wow, this makes zero sense. Again, if a criminal act occurs by an exec at IBM on IBM grounds, and it is completely unrelated to how IBM is run as a business, and a couple of other IBM people know about it and cover it up, does that mean IBM is responsible for it all, and the SEC should shut the doors on IBM? Or is the criminal and those who covered it up that should be punished? Should all the employees lose the foundation on which they were building their careers at that point, or should the perpetrators be dealt with by the police, and the IBM employees keep their jobs under new management and closer scrutiny of that management?

I guess this is the way it is today. Can't just blame the direct culprit or culprits, gotta distribute blame to anyone and anything that had an association with the culprit or culprits, regardless of who it hurts or how innocent they are.

hard to believe you can't answer that one for yourself. Watch the settlements to come, just like the Catholic Church. If you think they had no culpability, you should really urge them to take all cases to trial.

 

[TheDude]

No, but I'm pretty sure that IBM would cancel the office Xmas party or like frivolities. As far as analogies go, yours are inept. You're correct that IBM can't survive without workers, but Penn State can absolutely survive without two or three football games.

Of course this is only about him surviving a weekend with no Penn St football. The bigger issue is being a tad marginalized under the guise of "the poor innocent football players lives are being ruined."

Entrusting youth to an higher educational institution built on integrity and honor is a nice slogan to etch on the stadium, but just fill that in with plaster and lets get back to the 11 days a year / 3 hours of Saturday frivolity

 

[Stautner]

not quite, the downfall of enron was the cover up of accounting and shell companies by a few at the top - the same thing happened at healthsouth, worldcomm, etc. Innocent people lost their jobs. You fail to address that point of the analogy since it blows your arguement apart.

Private business and a "state college, top 10 football program in a college town in the middle of nowhere Pennsylvania." are hardly comparable to the amount of protection the community gives.

i grew up in knoxville Tennessee, went to school with Heath Shuler, knew Dwayne Goodrich, Carl Pickens and many others. there is so much crap that gets covered up, it is numbing - but nothing like this.

I never said "shut it down" but if the NCAA seemed to not care much about innocent SMU players or Auburn players when they got the death penalty. If the Penn state offers or is required to forfeit games - so be it. Others have been penalized for far less. Do you dispute that?

What are you talking about? You are still advocating the governing body over athletics (NCAA) shutting the doors on Penn State football based on analogies in which the governing body of business (SEC) did not shut the doors. You are still talking about shutting the doors on Penn State football based on incidents that do not involve how the football team was run based on analogies in business that directly involve how the business was run.

If you never said "shut it down", why in the world are you even disputing me anyway. That's what I have been arguing against all along - that the NCAA should not impose the death penalty.

As for universities being penalized for much less, we aren't talking apples to apples. Of course child milestation is infinitely worse than recruting violations at SMU, but there is a difference in where to place blame. If a person molests a child in the shower, and the coach and a few administrators covers it up, there is no dirt on the players themselves, and the coach and adminstrators should take the fall. If there is an ongoing year after year culture of boosters paying players, then the players themselves have dirt on them, and they deserve to take the fall as well. Even in that incident some innocents get hurt, but the infection exists throughout the team and there is no way to ensure the infection is cleared without starting over.

I just don't get the SMU analogy. Player after player after player was found to have knowingly accpeted gifts in violaton of NCAA rules, and the coaches and administration and players all were known to have been invovled year after year after year. This was a long standing culture that permeated throughout everyone within the program. Even those who didn't receive gifts and perks were aware of them.

That is nothing like the Penn State situation where the players had no involvement at all, there are no actual football related practices in question, and there was no ongoing culture of problems permeating throughout the program and everyone associated with it year after year.

 

[bbgun]

Of course this is only about him surviving a weekend with no Penn St football. The bigger issue is being a tad marginalized under the guise of "the poor innocent football players lives are being ruined."

Entrusting youth to an higher educational institution built on integrity and honor is a nice slogan to etch on the stadium, but just fill that in with plaster and lets get back to the 11 days a year / 3 hours of Saturday frivolity

The real victims are the kids. The players would have been unwitting victims at best, but so are students who are forced to re-take an exam because some of their peers cheated. Again, life isn't fair.

 

[Stautner]

No, but I'm pretty sure that IBM would cancel the office Xmas party or like frivolities. As far as analogies go, yours are inept. You're correct that IBM can't survive without workers, but Penn State can absolutely survive without two or three football games.

Fine, cancel the Penn State pep rally. I have no problem with that. IT's ridiculous to suggest that equates with shutting down the entire program.

hard to believe you can't answer that one for yourself. Watch the settlements to come, just like the Catholic Church. If you think they had no culpability, you should really urge them to take all cases to trial.

Do you ever think before posting? Where did I say I had anything against the families of victims suing Penn State? Civil suits can be brought without shutting down the football program just like civil suits can be brought against the Catholic church without shutting down Catholic parishes.

You are really bad at this analogy thing.

Of course this is only about him surviving a weekend with no Penn St football. The bigger issue is being a tad marginalized under the guise of "the poor innocent football players lives are being ruined."

Entrusting youth to an higher educational institution built on integrity and honor is a nice slogan to etch on the stadium, but just fill that in with plaster and lets get back to the 11 days a year / 3 hours of Saturday frivolity

Wow, you are reaching down to the depths of idiocy. I have no concern in the least about watching Penn State football, and in fact cannot even recall the last time I saw a Penn State football game. I didn't even know what Penn State's record was this year until this story broke and it was reported in the midst of the stories about Sandusky. I didn't even know who Sandusky was for that matter.

What this is about for me is properly placing the blame where it belongs, and not punishing the innocent out of a ridiculous sense of vengeance. If 5-6 people are involved in a crime and coverup that has nothing to do with how the football team is run or with any of the members of the football team, you don't take the foundation that 75-100 people are using to build their futures on for the sins of the 5-6. It's amazing you would advocate that.