Penn State Sex Abuse Scandal (Indictment Post #144, "Pimping" Allegations Post #442)

[TheDude]

What are you talking about? You are still advocating the governing body over athletics (NCAA) shutting the doors on Penn State football based on analogies in which the governing body of business (SEC) did not shut the doors. You are still talking about shutting the doors on Penn State football based on incidents that do not involve how the football team was run based on analogies in business that directly involve how the business was run.

If you never said "shut it down", why in the world are you even disputing me anyway. That's what I have been arguing against all along - that the NCAA should not impose the death penalty.

As for universities being penalized for much less, we aren't talking apples to apples. Of course child milestation is infinitely worse than recruting violations at SMU, but there is a difference in where to place blame. If a person molests a child in the shower, and the coach and a few administrators covers it up, there is no dirt on the players themselves, and the coach and adminstrators should take the fall. If there is an ongoing year after year culture of boosters paying players, then the players themselves have dirt on them, and they deserve to take the fall as well. Even in that incident some innocents get hurt, but the infection exists throughout the team and there is no way to ensure the infection is cleared without starting over.

I just don't get the SMU analogy. Player after player after player was found to have knowingly accpeted gifts in violaton of NCAA rules, and the coaches and administration and players all were known to have been invovled year after year after year. This was a long standing culture that permeated throughout everyone within the program. Even those who didn't receive gifts and perks were aware of them.

That is nothing like the Penn State situation where the players had no involvement at all, there are no actual football related practices in question, and there was no ongoing culture of problems permeating throughout the program and everyone associated with it year after year.

You are the one who brought business CEO analogies into this. Building computers or software with a private company is a little different than a state instituion in the "business" of educating youth and developing well rounded adults.

My first post was, I don't have strong feelings one way or another if games are forfeited. However, The NCAA should impose penalties to be consistent, otherwise, tatoos, money, etc. is the worse than child rape. I'll give you a/some players may be involved in the former. but innocent players are impacted as well. The fact that the 46 yr HC, AD, a former DC still on campus, etc had children raped for YEARS on the facility points to a much worse "blind eye" than a gift of jackets or jewelry.

Innocent players have been punished in the past for much less than what has happened here. The Fact that a FOOTBALL PLAYER getting a 40K/yr scholarship misses a game is the least of talking points.

I think Penn State would be smart to forfeit a game or two as a gesture of prioritizing the issue. In no way should they profit from a bowl game this year. If they choose not to do that, I would hope the NCAA would come down with some sort of puishment to illustrate the moral equivalency.

People are punished all the time for the sins of a few. Missing a football game is not the equivalent of being 52 years old and losing a job.

The more you have defended this as "THE ISSUE" has likely made me more steadfast that firing a coach and taking a statue down, may not be the total learning experience we should be left with

 

[TheDude]

Fine, cancel the Penn State pep rally. I have no problem with that. IT's ridiculous to suggest that equates with shutting down the entire program.



Do you ever think before posting? Where did I say I had anything against the families of victims suing Penn State? Civil suits can be brought without shutting down the football program just like civil suits can be brought against the Catholic church without shutting down Catholic parishes.

You are really bad at this analogy thing.




Wow, you are reaching down to the depths of idiocy. I have no concern in the least about watching Penn State football, and in fact cannot even recall the last time I saw a Penn State football game. I didn't even know what Penn State's record was this year until this story broke and it was reported in the midst of the stories about Sandusky. I didn't even know who Sandusky was for that matter.

What this is about for me is properly placing the blame where it belongs, and not punishing the innocent out of a ridiculous sense of vengeance. If 5-6 people are involved in a crime and coverup that has nothing to do with how the football team is run or with any of the members of the football team, you don't take the foundation that 75-100 people are using to build their futures on for the sins of the 5-6. It's amazing you would advocate that.

If you think there are 75-100 NFL players on that football team, you have proven where the village idiot is. No one said fire all coaches or secrtaries if that is part of your 100. These kids are still getting an EDUCATION which you dismiss since life apparently is 100% football. I assume the degree will go further than "I was 3rd string gunner on the punt team."

Forfeiting a game or 2 is not a perpetual termination. Wow

 

[bbgun]

Fine, cancel the Penn State pep rally. I have no problem with that. IT's ridiculous to suggest that equates with shutting down the entire program.

No pep rally? Yeah, that more than makes up for destroying the lives of innocent human beings. Well done, sir.

You erred when you simplistically analogized IBM to the football program alone instead of the school itself. Just as IBM can weather the loss of a few criminal executives, so can Penn State survive the forfeiture of a few games. They choose not to.

 

[ZeroClub]

This isn't directed to anyone in particular --

If the graduate assistant, Mike McQueary, told Paterno what he (Mike McQueary) saw and if Mike McQueary also told Paterno that he (Mike McQueary) notified the police ....

I don't see Paterno as having a moral obligation to contact police. Heck, what would he have said?

"You know that guy who called you about the incident in the shower room? He told me the same thing."

Of course none of us know what really happened. And the new information that will continue to trickle in may end up changing some initial impressions.

 

[Stautner]

You are the one who brought business CEO analogies into this. Building computers or software with a private company is a little different than a state instituion in the "business" of educating youth and developing well rounded adults.

My first post was, I don't have strong feelings one way or another if games are forfeited. However, The NCAA should impose penalties to be consistent, otherwise, tatoos, money, etc. is the worse than child rape. I'll give you a/some players may be involved in the former. but innocent players are impacted as well. The fact that the 46 yr HC, AD, a former DC still on campus, etc had children raped for YEARS on the facility points to a much worse "blind eye" than a gift of jackets or jewelry.

Innocent players have been punished in the past for much less than what has happened here. The Fact that a FOOTBALL PLAYER getting a 40K/yr scholarship misses a game is the least of talking points.

I think Penn State would be smart to forfeit a game or two as a gesture of prioritizing the issue. In no way should they profit from a bowl game this year. If they choose not to do that, I would hope the NCAA would come down with some sort of puishment to illustrate the moral equivalency.

People are punished all the time for the sins of a few. Missing a football game is not the equivalent of being 52 years old and losing a job.

The more you have defended this as "THE ISSUE" has likely made me more steadfast that firing a coach and taking a statue down, may not be the total learning experience we should be left with

Yes, I did bring the business CEO's into it to show that when a person in a leadership position commits a crime that is unrelated to how the entity he leads is run, then he is the one who should be punished, and not all the innocent people who depend on the entity to build their futures on.

You might want to pay attention - this is how analogies work.

By the way, you should be aware that the SEC governs public companies, and by the way, the NCAA governs athletics regarding private, as well as public schools.

As for being in the business of educating youth and developing well rounded young adults, I have to wonder why you don't think the university has that kind of obligation to the football players. After all, the school recruited them to be a part of the university using the opportunity to play college football at Penn State as the primary recruiting tool, so how is it that shutting down the football program fulfills the obligation of the school regarding those students?

The idea that the football players are there to be educated and developed into well rounded young adults is why I equated them to the corporate employees, both of which are relying on the entities they are involved with to build a foundation for their future.

Again, that's how analogies work. Analogies do NOT work when you compare the governing body (NCAA) shutting down a football program for issues unrelated to the actual running of the football program to a business that the governing body (SEC) did not (nor wanted to) shut down, and whose issues were directly related to the actual running of the business.

 

[bbgun]

This isn't directed to anyone in particular --

If the graduate assistant, Mike McQueary, told Paterno what he (Mike McQueary) saw and if Mike McQueary also told Paterno that he (Mike McQueary) notified the police ....

I don't see Paterno as having a moral obligation to contact police. Heck, what would he have said?

"You know that guy who called you about the incident in the shower room? He told me the same thing."

Of course none of us know what really happened. And the new information that will continue to trickle in may end up changing some initial impressions.

But after a certain period of time, it would have dawned on Paterno that McQueary did not contact the police. If he had, the police would have stopped by to question Paterno about Sandusky, his reputation, why he still had access to the facilities, etc.

 

[casmith07]

But after a certain period of time, it would have dawned on Paterno that McQueary did not contact the police. If he had, the police would have stopped by to question Paterno about Sandusky, his reputation, why he still had access to the facilities, etc.

I don't think all of Paterno's faculties have been about him for quite some time.

 

[Stautner]

No pep rally? Yeah, that more than makes up for destroying the lives of innocent human beings. Well done, sir.

You erred when you simplistically analogized IBM to the football program alone instead of the school itself. Just as IBM can weather the loss of a few criminal executives, so can Penn State survive the forfeiture of a few games. They choose not to.

Wow, are you completely lost in this discussion. Nobody ever indicated anything of this sort, and this is a ridiculous comment if you have any idea at all about the context of the discussion.

As for making up for destroying the lives of innocent human beings, please enlighten me as to how taking the opportunity to play college football away from innocent human beings makes up for what happened to Sandusky's victims?

Perhaps if you had bothered to read and comprehend you would understand this is the context of the discussion.

 

[Stautner]

This isn't directed to anyone in particular --

If the graduate assistant, Mike McQueary, told Paterno what he (Mike McQueary) saw and if Mike McQueary also told Paterno that he (Mike McQueary) notified the police ....

I don't see Paterno as having a moral obligation to contact police. Heck, what would he have said?

"You know that guy who called you about the incident in the shower room? He told me the same thing."

Of course none of us know what really happened. And the new information that will continue to trickle in may end up changing some initial impressions.

If this were the case, then Paterno had no obligation to contact the police because having seen nothing and having no proof of nothing he could not support or add to what McQueary told the police. Unfortunately there is no evidence I have heard that McQueary either went to the police or told Paterno he went to the police, therefore Paterno is not off the hook.

 

[bbgun]

Wow, are you completely lost in this discussion. Nobody ever indicated anything of this sort, and this is a ridiculous comment if you have any idea at all about the context of the discussion.

As for making up for destroying the lives of innocent human beings, please enlighten me as to how taking the opportunity to play college football away from innocent human beings makes up for what happened to Sandusky's victims?

Perhaps if you had bothered to read and comprehend you would understand this is the context of the discussion.

Never said it did, Mr. Strawman. It's simply the right and respectful thing to do. You don't play meaningless games when others are suffering because of your negligence. And no, I don't give a damn if grown men are deprived of two or three more games. They'll survive.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

I don't think all of Paterno's faculties have been about him for quite some time.

A lot of people thought that Paterno had lost it when it was really a problem with his hearing. He'd mishear questions at a PC and give an unrelated answer which made people think that.

He's a stubborn old man who refused to admit he was old but since his upgrading hearing aids last summer, it's like talking to a new person, the sharp mind and self-deprecating wit was back.

 

[Hoofbite]

I think the fact that Sandusky used the football program as a means of buttering up his victims is reason enough to hold the program accountable.

I don't believe for one second that the first time the university heard of his actions they took his keys from him.

They basically allowed him to use all his given perks to take those kids to games and practices and such.

 

[ZeroClub]

But after a certain period of time, it would have dawned on Paterno that McQueary did not contact the police. If he had, the police would have stopped by to question Paterno about Sandusky, his reputation, why he still had access to the facilities, etc.

I guess that would be one way that someone could react.

But I wouldn't fault Paterno for thinking something along these lines: What the heck am I going to tell the police?

"Remember that story that the graduate assistant told you that you didn't think was credible enough to investigate? Well, he told me the same thing."

I guess I don't think there would be a moral obligation for Paterno to contact the police to ask why the police weren't acting on McQueary's report in a way that was visible to Paterno.

It is one thing to alert police to something they don't know. I can see a moral obligation there.

But I don't think Paterno would have had a moral obligation to doublecheck the police to make sure that they were acting on McQueary's report correctly. It might have made sense for Paterno's superiors to do this, but I don't see how double-checking the police was necessarily Paterno's job.

 

[TheDude]

Yes, I did bring the business CEO's into it to show that when a person in a leadership position commits a crime that is unrelated to how the entity he leads is run, then he is the one who should be punished, and not all the innocent people who depend on the entity to build their futures on.

You might want to pay attention - this is how analogies work.

By the way, you should be aware that the SEC governs public companies, and by the way, the NCAA governs athletics regarding private, as well as public schools.

As for being in the business of educating youth and developing well rounded young adults, I have to wonder why you don't think the university has that kind of obligation to the football players. After all, the school recruited them to be a part of the university using the opportunity to play college football at Penn State as the primary recruiting tool, so how is it that shutting down the football program fulfills the obligation of the school regarding those students?

The idea that the football players are there to be educated and developed into well rounded young adults is why I equated them to the corporate employees, both of which are relying on the entities they are involved with to build a foundation for their future.

Again, that's how analogies work. Analogies do NOT work when you compare the governing body (NCAA) shutting down a football program for issues unrelated to the actual running of the football program to a business that the governing body (SEC) did not (nor wanted to) shut down, and whose issues were directly related to the actual running of the business.

companies do not have a main objective, nor is it their requirement, to develop people into well rounded adults and educate them on wordly ways. They expect people to perform jobs that add value. Competition for those jobs are weeded out (ususally) by demonstrating you acquired those aforementioned abilities in a college or school and have the ability to perform.

Let's be clear, Major atheletics are there for one reason only. Money. They either make tons on the gate/product or use it to panhandle to donors and boosters to contribute money. No one offers "degrees" in football. It is an Extra-curricular activity. Right? or wrong? Major Universities have leaned on the bell-cow to generate money. Universities are there to teach...that is the product 99.9% are there for

I am very well how analogies work. And I think BB was much more concise to illustate your lack of effectiveness using the tool.

The difference, viz a vie your CFO, being employees are paid and are dependent upon the whole organization being solvent and viable. If the Criminal activity of the CEO brings such shame and vitriol, the complany will likley fire them and others who committed the cover up. the company can still survive if their product is in demand and as long as it has the funds to pay for the criminal torts and remain liquid. My Enron analogy was that the actions of a few at the top hurt innocent people on the bottom as to illustrate that innocent people get hurt all the time and keeping the business afloat so they wont be unfair.

The NCAA comparison is ring fenced by their penalties imposed on white-collar violations. This violation was more heinous lasted much longer than SMU. The program seemed to turn a blind eye. This is bolstered by the immediacy of removing Paterno from coaching, the name on the trophy, etc


And in another example of "Life isn't fair", Northeastern cancelled their football program in 2009 only due to a financial issue. I hope you wrote letter and blasted them for not living up to their end of letting them play football and told them not to bother responding with "they still got an eduction."

That is much more damaging to a student than not appearing in a bowl game.

You are a m a z i n g

 

[ZeroClub]

If this were the case, then Paterno had no obligation to contact the police because having seen nothing and having no proof of nothing he could not support or add to what McQueary told the police. Unfortunately there is no evidence I have heard that McQueary either went to the police or told Paterno he went to the police, therefore Paterno is not off the hook.

You probably heard the latest story/rumor that McQueary told friends that he had stopped the incident in the shower and had reported the incident to police.

I have no way of knowing if the latest story/rumor is true. Neither do you.

If it is true, then it would be surprising if McQueary didn't tell Paterno both about the incident and reporting the crime to police.

Grand jury reports are incomplete and one-sided (not subject to cross-examination) As the process unfolds, some original assumptions will be challenged and other information will come to light. It is difficult to guess the exact result, although it is a safe bet that there will be some surprises along the way.

 

[TheDude]

I don't think all of Paterno's faculties have been about him for quite some time.

Agree to an extent,

However, transferring his house to his wife this summer (during the final grand jury moments) was interesting.

May not play much of an issue, but a very strange thing for someone to do at 80+ years old to an 80+ year old spouse. usually these go to children

 

[Concord]

Trust me, I KNOW what I'm talking about.

I just took a blood oath and am sworn to secrecy and I cannot divulge anything of what I KNOW. Don't believe me? I don't care.

But when the part of the story that you don't know comes out, I'll let you KNOW that I KNEW!!!

 

[03EBZ06]

Contacting police aside, I wonder if Paterno asked "what happened to the kid"? and "where is he?" and "How is he?" or "Did you call his parents?" type of questions.

This isn't directed to anyone in particular --

If the graduate assistant, Mike McQueary, told Paterno what he (Mike McQueary) saw and if Mike McQueary also told Paterno that he (Mike McQueary) notified the police ....

I don't see Paterno as having a moral obligation to contact police. Heck, what would he have said?

"You know that guy who called you about the incident in the shower room? He told me the same thing."

Of course none of us know what really happened. And the new information that will continue to trickle in may end up changing some initial impressions.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Or we could sensibly and logically limit the penalties to the football program alone, where the evil originated. Nah, let's be insensitive and play some meaningless football games while paying lip service to the kids at the same time.

So cancelling games will help the victims heal? Can you please tell me how that happens?

 

[casmith07]

Agree to an extent,

However, transferring his house to his wife this summer (during the final grand jury moments) was interesting.

May not play much of an issue, but a very strange thing for someone to do at 80+ years old to an 80+ year old spouse. usually these go to children

You can still take care of personal affairs even from prison. I think it's coincidental. Him getting a power of attorney done would have been more suspect, in my opinion.