Penn State Sex Abuse Scandal (Indictment Post #144, "Pimping" Allegations Post #442)

[Stautner]

I don't know what "these people" is reffering, but I did go to the Unioversity of Tennessee in the mid-late 1990s and knew many players then and now, some of whom ended up in the NFL.

I also know there are eye popping lengths that are taken to treat atheletics with kid gloves. The usaToday article just shows Penn State was no different. It doesn't take 150 people, it takes about 2-5 well placed ones.

That said, all coaches and players are not bad. Actually the vast majority are solid people. But things are kept in house. I can share many stories

Tell me how it takes 2-5 well placed individuals to make up the entire football program, because unless you are saying that then your response was completely irrelevent to what I said.

My point was really very clear - Paterno and McQueary were the only members internal to the football program that we know to have had anything to do with this, and there may be somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 people internal to the football program, accordingly, unless some new information comes out it is an extreme stretch to say the "football program" is at fault, or to say it is appropriate to punish the football program when only 2 people in it had any involvement, and even then, their involvement, tragic though it was, did not relate to how the football program was run.

 

[TheDude]

Tell me how it takes 2-5 well placed individuals to make up the entire football program, because unless you are saying that then your response was completely irrelevent to what I said.

My point was really very clear - Paterno and McQueary were the only members internal to the football program that we know to have had anything to do with this, and there may be somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 people internal to the football program, accordingly, unless some new information comes out it is an extreme stretch to say the "football program" is at fault, or to say it is appropriate to punish the football program when only 2 people in it had any involvement, and even then, their involvement, tragic though it was, did not relate to how the football program was run.

The AD is part of the football program, hate to inform you. Would you consider a GM part of an NFL program. How about the owner?

You are completely obtuse about this issue. Whether its because you can't fathom "dark things" about football or just a need to be on the other side, it really isn't serious discussion anymore.

 

[Stautner]

The AD is part of the football program, hate to inform you. Would you consider a GM part of an NFL program. How about the owner?

You are completely obtuse about this issue. Whether its because you can't fathom "dark things" about football or just a need to be on the other side, it really isn't serious discussion anymore.

No, the AD is part of the athletics department, of which the football program is a part. A football GM is a FOOTBALL guy, not a guy in charge of football, basketball, baseball, hockey, volleyball, gymnastics, track & field, swimming, diving, tennis, golf, crew, cheerleading etc ....

I have no problem with understanding there can be a dark side to a football program. That was the case with SMU, where the administration, entire coaching staff, and all the players either participated in, or knew of the improprieties. THAT is a situation where the football "program" was so infected throughout that the football program had to take the severest of hits. That isn't even remotely the case at Penn State.

 

[WV Cowboy]

That was the case with SMU, where the administration, entire coaching staff, and all the players either participated in, or knew of the improprieties.

I probably shouldn't do this, .. but do you think that every single football player, every coach, equipment managers, ... everybody was involved?

Or did some innocent get punished as well?

 

[TheDude]

No, the AD is part of the athletics department, of which the football program is a part. A football GM is a FOOTBALL guy, not a guy in charge of football, basketball, baseball, hockey, volleyball, gymnastics, track & field, swimming, diving, tennis, golf, crew, cheerleading etc ....

I have no problem with understanding there can be a dark side to a football program. That was the case with SMU, where the administration, entire coaching staff, and all the players either participated in, or knew of the improprieties. THAT is a situation where the football "program" was so infected throughout that the football program had to take the severest of hits. That isn't even remotely the case at Penn State.

So if a couple has 3 children, they are not considered as dedicasted a parent as a couple with one child. All bees are insects, but not all insects are bees. That is incredibly disingenious

Does an AD hire, fire and review foorball HCs (along with other duties)? This is substanitally different from a dedicated GM how in relation to a college football HC's/AD relationship? Pretty big fail.

 

[03EBZ06]

Whenever NCAA punishes schools like USC, Ohio State, Miami, etc, lot of innocent people who had nothing to do with infractions get punished as well as those who are the main curprit of infractions. So yes, there is always collateral damages.

 

[JBond]

Is it business as usual to fire the head coach who has been an icon and the symbol of your university for decades? A guy who is a living legend?

The lead dogs at the university did not treat it as "business as usual", now as for the players, students at the university who had nothing to do with this, yes.. they went on practicing and played their game. I can understand wanting to keep it business as usual for the kids, the students.

But saying there were no ramnifications for those involved is just silly. They still may contribute revenue or something of that nature, but its wrong to punish the students and the players who had nothing to do with this. You punish the people involved, and that is what happened.


Also, i didn't say there shouldn't be any consequences for morality.. only that if everyone in this country was judged fairly and was told their job would be taken away for any immoral acts they have committed, regardless of how much good they had done, very few would be left with a job.

There are people in business all over the country doing illegal things, and they are pushing their companies ahead and gaining an edge and being commended for it. That's not even talking morals, that's legality.. and its happening all over. Yet when Joe Paterno follows the law, but makes a moral mistake.. we all condemn him for it and it costs him his job.

Who the hell are any of us to judge the moral fortitude of another human being? We're all sinners, and I feel Joe made a mistake, but we shouldn't be taking away people's jobs if they didn't do anything illegal. Judge others based on morality is something no human being on earth is qualified to do.

Um... the leaders of the program and the university treated it as "business as usual" until they were caught. Business as usual to them means allowing a predator free reign to use the program and the university as a recruiting tool for his victims. They did this for power and greed reasons. As long as it is not public and they can continue to rake in the big bucks, all is fine. Don't worry about the kids, we have to make money was their philosophy. The program and idiots running thing at Penn State are the problem. They are too greedy and stupid to have the privilege of a program.

3 coaches the AD and the School President that we know about. I wonder how many others pulled a "McQueary" and walked away from a child being raped? Seems that is the staus quo established by Penn State leaders.

 

[Stautner]

I probably shouldn't do this, .. but do you think that every single football player, every coach, equipment managers, ... everybody was involved?

Or did some innocent get punished as well?

Apparently you are just blindly disagreeing with me without paying attention to anything I have said. Of course we already knew that because you still are unable to tell me what you disagreed with in some of my statements you quoted and indicated you had a problem with.

I have already discussed this in the past, but I will do so again just for you. What I have said with regard to SMU is that even if there were a few people here and there that were ingnorant of what was going on (meaning neither gave nor received gifts/perks in violation of NCAA rules, nor were aware it was going on), the overwhelming majority of people did know, from the SMU administration, to the AD, to the coaches, to the players, to the trainers - top to bottom and involving damn near everyone, if not everyone, within the program, and because the issues permeated through every vein at every level the NCAA had no choice but to consider it an infection on the entirety of the football program.

There are 2 bottom line points:

1. There is a dramatic difference between a situation where a few people were innocent and the overwhelming majority of the large number of people within the football program were guilty of either the actual improprieties, or of covering them up, and a situation where only 2 were guilty of a cover up that and everyone else was innocent.

2. There is a difference between issues that involve how the football program was run, and issues involving a terrible choice by a couple of individuals in reporting a criminal matter that did not reflect how the football program itself was run.

So if a couple has 3 children, they are not considered as dedicasted a parent as a couple with one child. All bees are insects, but not all insects are bees. That is incredibly disingenious

Does an AD hire, fire and review foorball HCs (along with other duties)? This is substanitally different from a dedicated GM how in relation to a college football HC's/AD relationship? Pretty big fail.

Analogies appear to be a very weak area for a lot of posters.

But I will say this, if a parent screws up and the kids had no knowledge or any part of it, the parents should be punished and not the kids. Wouldn't you agree with that?

By the way, who is the 3rd coach? Sandusky wasn't a coach at the time, so did they determine there was another coach that knew something?

 

[JBond]

Authorities Probe 2 New Abuse Allegations Against Sandusky That Involve Current Children

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/2...-sandusky-that-involve-current/#ixzz1eYgLNmut

and the hits just keep coming.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

So you think it's acceptable that a public figure, whose salary is paid by tax dollars, can keep his job aslong as he doesn't do anything illegal? So if anyone comes out tommorrow and says the world would've been a better place had Germany won world war 2, you'd be okay with them keeping a job at a university? If someone came out tommorrow and said, while I'm personally not attracted to children, I don't see what the big deal is, you'd be okay with them leading a football team?

While I don't think we should condem anyone (actual meaning, not what you're using), especially those that did not break the law, you cannot allow someone in Joe Pa's position to continue after what he did (or failed to do).

Both scenarios are a little different than not following up on a report you gave about allegations of child abuse.. if, in fact, he didn't follow up.

 

[WV Cowboy]

Or did some innocent get punished as well?

It was a yes/no question.

even if there were a few people here and there that were ingnorant of what was going on (meaning neither gave nor received gifts/perks in violation of NCAA rules, nor were aware it was going on)

thank you

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Um... the leaders of the program and the university treated it as "business as usual" until they were caught. Business as usual to them means allowing a predator free reign to use the program and the university as a recruiting tool for his victims. They did this for power and greed reasons. As long as it is not public and they can continue to rake in the big bucks, all is fine. Don't worry about the kids, we have to make money was their philosophy. The program and idiots running thing at Penn State are the problem. They are too greedy and stupid to have the privilege of a program.

3 coaches the AD and the School President that we know about. I wonder how many others pulled a "McQueary" and walked away from a child being raped? Seems that is the staus quo established by Penn State leaders.

Do you really believe this is what everybody involved thought was going on?

Please..

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Again, I struggle with how you can seriously pose a question like this.

World Hunger = Jerry Sandusky.

I have to assume you are stepping on a soapbox to try to save face. Setting aside the sovereign responsibility, the 1000s of charities actively working the issues, using your logic, no one who doesn't spend 100% of their earnings and 100% of their time addressing foreign child hunger is as immoral as Paterno, the AD, or McQuery.

Still if you are saying that if in 1998 a child allegedly starved to death after being in the Penn State shower, cafeteria or whatever and a person involved in the starvation suddenly retired yet held on to university access, offices, etc. Then 4 years later an employee comes and says "I see a kid starving with flies buzzing his head in the shower." And the only response is to call the AD...come on.

Where there is smoke there's fire and playing Bagdad Bob to protect a reputation is unconscionable

Is it that hard to understand for you?

We're all condemning Joe Paterno because he had information of children possibly suffering because of Sandusky given to him from another source, and he informed his superiors about it and may or may not have followed up with them on it. He didn't see it happen or know for sure if it happened.

Yet all of us in this country who live as well as we do, have full knowledge that there are children in other countries suffering and even dying every day because they are starving and can't get enough food to eat. They are suffering every day of starvation until they die, and if we all just gave a few cents a day even, many less children would suffer or die.. yet most of us don't do it.

Think about it for a few minutes.. We know how to help, we know there are children suffering and dying, yet most of us choose to do nothing about it.

 

[Stautner]

It was a yes/no question.



thank you

Oh, so you didn't really want a full explaination of what I thought because that hinders your ability to take my thoughts out of context and manufacture a point that really doesn't exist.

Besides, it can't be a simple yes or no because I can't really claim to know that there was absolutely no one at any level in any position within the football program that was not aware. I think it's very possible everyone knew - after all, poor kids from across the tracks don't get new Trans-Ams from the money earned from their school arranged job shooing alligators off the practice field in Highland Park. But I can't say there was nobody that was clueless, even as unlikely as that may seem.

 

[Cythim]

Is it that hard to understand for you?

We're all condemning Joe Paterno because he had information of children possibly suffering because of Sandusky given to him from another source, and he informed his superiors about it and may or may not have followed up with them on it. He didn't see it happen or know for sure if it happened.

Yet all of us in this country who live as well as we do, have full knowledge that there are children in other countries suffering and even dying every day because they are starving and can't get enough food to eat. They are suffering every day of starvation until they die, and if we all just gave a few cents a day even, many less children would suffer or die.. yet most of us don't do it.

Think about it for a few minutes.. We know how to help, we know there are children suffering and dying, yet most of us choose to do nothing about it.

That is an extremely myopic view of the situation. World hunger is not a problem that one person can solve on their own, but stopping Sandusky from abusing children is. The two situations are not equivalent and it only puts you in league with Paterno to suggest otherwise.

 

[Stautner]

Do you really believe this is what everybody involved thought was going on?

Please..

He made this point - if you want to call it that - before, and when I commented that allowing a guy use of the facilities, and that guy using the factilities to rape a boy didn't equate to the school allowing use of the facilities for the purpose of allowing him to rape boys, he dropped it and WV Cowboys jumped in by saying he couldn't believe people were still defending Penn State. Of course over 3 days WV has yet to come up with what it is about my statement he disagreed with despite being asked multiple times.

I don't mind people having a difference of opinion, but a little logic would help.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

That is an extremely myopic view of the situation. World hunger is not a problem that one person can solve on their own, but stopping Sandusky from abusing children is. The two situations are not equivalent and it only puts you in league with Paterno to suggest otherwise.

Im not talking about world hunger.. im talking about helping a few children not suffer or die. One person is up to the task of doing that, and that is what Joe could've done if he had followed up on the allegations he was told about (assuming he didn't which may not be true) yet we all are so quick to condemn him. He could have helped a few children not suffer.

Also, please don't talk about what kind of person i am, as you have no idea and only sound foolish to suggest things about me, especially how moral or immoral i am.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

He made this point - if you want to call it that - before, and when I commented that allowing a guy use of the facilities, and that guy using the factilities to rape a boy didn't equate to the school allowing use of the facilities for the purpose of allowing him to rape boys, he dropped it and WV Cowboys jumped in by saying he couldn't believe people were still defending Penn State. Of course over 3 days he has yet to come up with what it is about my statement he disagreed with despite being asked multiple times.

I don't mind people having a difference of opinion, but is it too much to ask that they use some logic in their comments, or at least understand what they are disagreeing with?

Apparently so.. all i've seen in this thread so far is people quick to jump to conclusions when no one really has the information required to know what all happened yet.

However, saying that everyone at PSU must have known the depth and breadth of this problem all along and simply just continued to let it happen and didn't worry about it is just downright ludicrous.

 

[TheDude]

Analogies appear to be a very weak area for a lot of posters.

But I will say this, if a parent screws up and the kids had no knowledge or any part of it, the parents should be punished and not the kids. Wouldn't you agree with that?

By the way, who is the 3rd coach? Sandusky wasn't a coach at the time, so did they determine there was another coach that knew something?

That wasn't the analogy. The analogy, in your world, was the parent/AD is absolved from having the same responsibility as a parent/GM in your world because the parent/AD has multiple children/sports where a GM has one. Not that hard.

But since you can't understand and offered up another scenario. Yes. If a parent screws up and gets fired, loses their house, income etc. then children do suffer in standard of living, college afforabiolity, reputation, etc. domino effect/collateral damage

Thanks for giving me an unrelated but just as germane point

 

[Cythim]

Im not talking about world hunger.. im talking about helping a few children not suffer or die. One person is up to the task of doing that, and that is what Joe could've done if he had followed up on the allegations he was told about (assuming he didn't which may not be true) yet we all are so quick to condemn him. He could have helped a few children not suffer.

Also, please don't talk about what kind of person i am, as you have no idea and only sound foolish to suggest things about me, especially how moral or immoral i am.

You are suggesting what kind of person everyone else is by suggesting they are just as immoral as Joe Paterno and it sounds quite foolish. Per capita, Americans contribute more than a dollar a day to charitable organizations. All of it does not go to feed hungry kids in Africa, but it is there to help those who are suffering or are less fortunate than most. You comparison does not fly.