Video: PFT: Is Troy Aikman or Roger Staubach the best Cowboys QB ever?

kskboys

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Spearing was legal for most of Staubach's career. It was only banned in 1976.

On the other hand there weren't a lot of JJ Watt looking super mutants in the 1970s either. You had some big dudes and some fast dudes, but not as many of either one, and hardly anybody that was both those things.
Completely disagree. Our own Bob Lilly was one such mutant. There are always a few of these mutant types sprinkled through every era. Did you forget Too Tall? Joe Greene was 6-4/275.

And there are very few super mutants in today's NFL. It's about the same.
 

CouchCoach

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Completely disagree. Our own Bob Lilly was one such mutant. There are always a few of these mutant types sprinkled through every era. Did you forget Too Tall? Joe Greene was 6-4/275.

And there are very few super mutants in today's NFL. It's about the same.
Mutant, did someone say mutant? I offer Ernie Ladd 6'9" 315 and Ben Davidson 6'8" 275 with a handlebar mustache bigger than most punt returners.
 

JoeKing

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Yes but one came before the other. It was nice to roll back to Memory Lane
Chronologically first does not always correlate to empirically better. But in this case, if you like nostalgia, it's much better to visit the Memory Lane of Roger "The Dodger" Staubach. Now that was a career worth recalling. Aikman is a contemporary of mine, while Staubach is a legend.
 

G2

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Yes.

My list goes Staubach, Meredith, Aikman. I could almost go w/ a tie for 2nd between Aikman and Merry.

Meredith was saddled w/ a terrible OL for 6 seasons. The fact that he did as well as he did was amazing. It shortened his career appreciably.
I'd agree with that. I lean more toward Aikman being better, but it's so close it's not worth arguing. I certainly wouldn't have Romo near them as some suggest. Meredith is just the least known IMO to the younger fans.
 

G2

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Completely disagree. Our own Bob Lilly was one such mutant. There are always a few of these mutant types sprinkled through every era. Did you forget Too Tall? Joe Greene was 6-4/275.

And there are very few super mutants in today's NFL. It's about the same.
It's a shame they didn't record statistics the same back then.
 

MichaelValentino

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Completely disagree. Our own Bob Lilly was one such mutant. There are always a few of these mutant types sprinkled through every era. Did you forget Too Tall? Joe Greene was 6-4/275.

And there are very few super mutants in today's NFL. It's about the same.


I'm certain many fans - especially the younger ones - only think this present era, or going back to the early 90s, has had great athletes, or as you say, "super mutants."

Sure, J.J. Watt is a special player. Reggie White ran a 4.65-4.7 at 295 lb and benched 500 lb. 15 years before Reggie, Randy White ran a 4.6 at 260 and benched 450 pounds 10 times. Mean Joe Greene was 275 and as great as Aaron Donald is (and he is a generational talent), how many NFL personnel experts would take Donald over Greene?

What about Gino Marchetti or Doug Atkins or Rosie Grier or Deacon Jones? And the 70s rolled out LBers who would just kill you: Butkus, Lanier, Lambert. Nitschke and Butkus in the 60s, and Sam Huff of the Giants and Bill George of the Bears before them.

The secondary was patrolled by guys like Dick Night Train Lane, Jack Tatum, Mel Blount. Running pass routes was much more dangerous in those days.

By and large, there's much more speed today. Training and nutrition will produce better athletes as time marches on. What if Bob Hayes trained today, had today's equipment, today's nutrition and ran on today's tracks? Would he run stride for stride with Bolt?

This all goes back - and my long post above addresses it directly - to the poster who said Staubach couldn't play in the 90s when Aikman played. Troy was tough - he was as big as Bradshaw and as mentally tough as Staubach - but Roger would have played in the 90s and would have put up bigger stats.

We tend to think of guys with much faster 40s. But the issue isn't a guy at 280 having a 40-yard run at a QB and hitting him with a lot more energy than a slower 250 lb guy. If you watch old games or highlights of some of the guys we've mentioned here, namely Lilly, Greene, the Manster, Olsen, Butkus, you'll see how they would fight off a block, get free and then just explode with perfect technique and power into a RB or QB.

If someone wants to doubt how Staubach would fare vs today's faster DL and LB, one should also ask how Tom Brady would fare in the 60s-70s when receivers were getting chucked all over the field and were not running as freely as they do today, and QBs had to hold the ball a little longer, when O-linemen could not extend their arms to pass block, and when QBs would routinely get drilled with a facemask planted in their chests or ribcages with no yellow laundry.

It will always be difficult to compare players across eras, but no. 12 for the Cowboys would be great in any of those eras. He'd run less today to avoid those concussions, and he might have had an even longer career for it.
 

Diehardblues

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I'm certain many fans - especially the younger ones - only think this present era, or going back to the early 90s, has had great athletes, or as you say, "super mutants."

Sure, J.J. Watt is a special player. Reggie White ran a 4.65-4.7 at 295 lb and benched 500 lb. 15 years before Reggie, Randy White ran a 4.6 at 260 and benched 450 pounds 10 times. Mean Joe Greene was 275 and as great as Aaron Donald is (and he is a generational talent), how many NFL personnel experts would take Donald over Greene?

What about Gino Marchetti or Doug Atkins or Rosie Grier or Deacon Jones? And the 70s rolled out LBers who would just kill you: Butkus, Lanier, Lambert. Nitschke and Butkus in the 60s, and Sam Huff of the Giants and Bill George of the Bears before them.

The secondary was patrolled by guys like Dick Night Train Lane, Jack Tatum, Mel Blount. Running pass routes was much more dangerous in those days.

By and large, there's much more speed today. Training and nutrition will produce better athletes as time marches on. What if Bob Hayes trained today, had today's equipment, today's nutrition and ran on today's tracks? Would he run stride for stride with Bolt?

This all goes back - and my long post above addresses it directly - to the poster who said Staubach couldn't play in the 90s when Aikman played. Troy was tough - he was as big as Bradshaw and as mentally tough as Staubach - but Roger would have played in the 90s and would have put up bigger stats.

We tend to think of guys with much faster 40s. But the issue isn't a guy at 280 having a 40-yard run at a QB and hitting him with a lot more energy than a slower 250 lb guy. If you watch old games or highlights of some of the guys we've mentioned here, namely Lilly, Greene, the Manster, Olsen, Butkus, you'll see how they would fight off a block, get free and then just explode with perfect technique and power into a RB or QB.

If someone wants to doubt how Staubach would fare vs today's faster DL and LB, one should also ask how Tom Brady would fare in the 60s-70s when receivers were getting chucked all over the field and were not running as freely as they do today, and QBs had to hold the ball a little longer, when O-linemen could not extend their arms to pass block, and when QBs would routinely get drilled with a facemask planted in their chests or ribcages with no yellow laundry.

It will always be difficult to compare players across eras, but no. 12 for the Cowboys would be great in any of those eras. He'd run less today to avoid those concussions, and he might have had an even longer career for it.
Well said. It is difficult comparing eras. All you can be is great in your era.

I’d suspect many would be great in any era. I love your comparison with Bullet and Bolt. Plus a stat line or measurement of body and speed doesn’t measure the heart of a Champion.

I think it’s why the Hall of Fame on the most part does a great job because it is about being the greatest of an era which includes not only championships and stat lines but Impact.

I know there’s always going to be those who arguably should be inducted but that’s what makes it such an elite group. Not everyone gets in. I think that’s how it should be.

Anyway. I haven’t seen you on here before but I really like your perspective. I see why now. A new member or poster. Look forward to more of your thoughts.
 

percyhoward

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I don't know about Staubach (I'm too young), but I know it's not Aikman. We've had better since.

Aikman is either 2 or 3 (I'm kind of assuming on White here too).
Romo is either 1 or 2
Staubach is 1 to 3 (again, I dunno - all I have to go on is how great everyone else seems to think he was)
White is out of the discussion as far as top 3. He had the league's best supporting cast the three years the team made it to the NFCC and lost. He was very good, and possibly #4 over Meredith, but then to borrow your line, I'm too young to know about Meredith.

Staubach led the league in passer rating four times. No other Dallas QB has done it more than once. Staubach was also the HOF's 1st team All-Decade QB. No other Dallas QB has even been 2nd team. Open and shut case, Staubach is #1, and probably top 5 all time (Graham, Montana, Manning, Brady all make a good case.) Staubach was ultra-competitive and just wouldn't be denied, and you can sense this in interviews to this day, and in his success in business

Aikman vs Romo is where it's interesting.
 

percyhoward

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Statistically Danny White compares.
Not favorably.

Top 5 Seasons in Passer Rating
Staubach 5 (1971, 73, 77, 78, 79)
Aikman 4 (1992, 93, 94, 95)
Romo 4 (2006, 07, 11, 14)
Meredith 2 (1966, 68)
White 2 (1981,82)
 
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percyhoward

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It will always be difficult to compare players across eras, but no. 12 for the Cowboys would be great in any of those eras. He'd run less today to avoid those concussions, and he might have had an even longer career for it.
What many younger fans don't realize is that Staubach spent five years in the military and didn't start a significant number of games until age 29. The first season that he was a regular starter (1971), he posted a 104.8 passer rating to lead the league, in a year when a 68.9 rating got you into the top 10. He ended up leading the league four times.

Without the military service on the front end and the concussions on the back end, he could have led the league 7-8 times. His career was a flash, and yet he accomplished things that guys who played 15+ seasons never came close to accomplishing.
 

percyhoward

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I’ve read several fans mentioning Tony Romo in this discussion. I respect all my fellow Cowboys fans and their opinions. But any mention of Tony Romo being better than either Roger or Troy is either lacking respect for prior greatness or just lazily overvaluing the era they have watched.
Nobody touches Staubach, but Romo vs Aikman is absolutely a legitimate debate, given their supporting casts.

Defense Avg Rank (points per game)
Playoff Seasons

Aikman 5th
Staubach 8th
White 11th
Romo 13th

Non-Playoff Seasons
Staubach 10th
White 13th
Aikman 19th
Romo 23rd
 
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MichaelValentino

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What many younger fans don't realize is that Staubach spent five years in the military and didn't start a significant number of games until age 29. The first season that he was a regular starter (1971), he posted a 104.8 passer rating to lead the league, in a year when a 68.9 rating got you into the top 10. He ended up leading the league four times.

Without the military service on the front end and the concussions on the back end, he could have led the league 7-8 times. His career was a flash, and yet he accomplished things that guys who played 15+ seasons never came close to accomplishing.

You nailed it again, Percy.

When I think of Roger Staubach's career, I cannot help but think of Gale Sayer's as well. Sayers was a comet that blurred across the NFL for all too brief a time. He was electrifying to watch: fast, elusive, graceful. Of all the RBs in the HOF, his career was the briefest, and by quite a margin. After his horrific knee injury, he never had a run of greater than 28 yards (IIRC). Prior to when 49ers corner Kermit Alexander hit him low and tore his knee in Wrigley Field in 1968, Sayers did nothing but flash utter brilliance. He only played 4.5 seasons in the NFL and yet to this day is considered among the greatest backs in history. Sometimes, the brightest candles burn the fastest. In baseball, Sandy Koufax only won 165 games - yet he is regarded as arguably the greatest left-handed pitcher in history.

Roger did not play long - only 8 full seasons as a starter. In the short time he had, his play was inspirational and at times, mesmerizing.

Staubach, Sayers, Koufax. Three men who graced their sports for a short time yet displayed unmistakable greatness.

We can only wonder if Roger had avoided those concussions how he (and the Cowboys) would have done in 1980-83. He very likely gets his team to two more SBs. And the AFC teams in the early 80s were not going to beat a Staubach-led Cowboys team that was still fairly stacked, though not at the 1977-78 level.

At ages 36 and 37, he posted great seasons for that era. He was still in outstanding shape and would likely have won another NFL passing title or two if he played a few more years.

I have nothing but respect for Coach Landry, but I do wish he had turned to Staubach sooner. In his eight full seasons as a starter, his teams went 82-28; he took the Cowboys to six NFFCGs and four SBs, and narrowly lost two games (each in Miami, each by four points) to Pittsburgh teams that everyone outside of Dallas said had better personnel at every level of defense, at WR and in the interior of the offensive line. Maybe Staubach wins 5 SBs with the 73-79 Steelers, who knows.

Of all of Montana's teams, I think only his 89 team would have beaten the 75 or 78 Steelers. Of all of Brady's teams, I don't even think the 2007 team would have beaten the 75 or 78 Steelers. Unfortunately for Roger, he had to go up against perhaps the greatest defense in history other than the 85 Bears, and even to get to Pittsburgh, Roger had to lead the Cowboys past other historically great defenses - the Rams and Vikings of the 70s.

If the 75 and 78 Cowboys could have made one or two more plays in SBs X and XIII, especially on defense, Roger would have been 4-0 in perhaps the most competitive decade of the SB era, and he would be regarded by many as the best ever. Like you, I place Roger in the top 5.
 

lwehlers

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Staubach, by a landslide
i have watched all of troy aikman games that he has played. but in the few games I have watched of Staubach he was the best qb in the history of the cowboys. Staubach could put a team on his back and will them to win. aikman in some of his games could not especially in his last two years when the talent level was declining. aikman is still my alltime favorite qb but not the all time best.
 

percyhoward

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Some people are confusing team with individual player. If you're going to judge by team accomplishments, then you have to consider team rankings and team honors. Romo was every bit as good as Aikman, but Romo didn't have near Aikman's supporting cast. Put Romo on Staubach's or Aikman's teams, and you'd have seen similar results.

Average League Rank Over Career (passer rating):
(five best seasons)

Staubach: 1st
Aikman: 4th
Romo: 5th

Average Rank of Defense When QB (points allowed):
(defense's five best seasons)

Staubach's Defenses: 6th
Aikman's Defenses: 3rd
Romo's Defenses: 13th

Average Rank in Rushing Yards
(RB's five best seasons)

Staubach's Backs: 3rd
Aikman's Backs: 4th
Romo's Backs: 13th

Offensive Line Combined All-Pro Selections
(Associated Press All-NFL 1st Team)

Staubach's Lines: 5
Aikman's Lines: 9
Romo's Lines: 2
 

Bobhaze

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I'm certain many fans - especially the younger ones - only think this present era, or going back to the early 90s, has had great athletes, or as you say, "super mutants."

Sure, J.J. Watt is a special player. Reggie White ran a 4.65-4.7 at 295 lb and benched 500 lb. 15 years before Reggie, Randy White ran a 4.6 at 260 and benched 450 pounds 10 times. Mean Joe Greene was 275 and as great as Aaron Donald is (and he is a generational talent), how many NFL personnel experts would take Donald over Greene?

What about Gino Marchetti or Doug Atkins or Rosie Grier or Deacon Jones? And the 70s rolled out LBers who would just kill you: Butkus, Lanier, Lambert. Nitschke and Butkus in the 60s, and Sam Huff of the Giants and Bill George of the Bears before them.

The secondary was patrolled by guys like Dick Night Train Lane, Jack Tatum, Mel Blount. Running pass routes was much more dangerous in those days.

By and large, there's much more speed today. Training and nutrition will produce better athletes as time marches on. What if Bob Hayes trained today, had today's equipment, today's nutrition and ran on today's tracks? Would he run stride for stride with Bolt?

This all goes back - and my long post above addresses it directly - to the poster who said Staubach couldn't play in the 90s when Aikman played. Troy was tough - he was as big as Bradshaw and as mentally tough as Staubach - but Roger would have played in the 90s and would have put up bigger stats.

We tend to think of guys with much faster 40s. But the issue isn't a guy at 280 having a 40-yard run at a QB and hitting him with a lot more energy than a slower 250 lb guy. If you watch old games or highlights of some of the guys we've mentioned here, namely Lilly, Greene, the Manster, Olsen, Butkus, you'll see how they would fight off a block, get free and then just explode with perfect technique and power into a RB or QB.

If someone wants to doubt how Staubach would fare vs today's faster DL and LB, one should also ask how Tom Brady would fare in the 60s-70s when receivers were getting chucked all over the field and were not running as freely as they do today, and QBs had to hold the ball a little longer, when O-linemen could not extend their arms to pass block, and when QBs would routinely get drilled with a facemask planted in their chests or ribcages with no yellow laundry.

It will always be difficult to compare players across eras, but no. 12 for the Cowboys would be great in any of those eras. He'd run less today to avoid those concussions, and he might have had an even longer career for it.
Excellent post. Well said!
 

RoboQB

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We often hear of the difference between yesterday's football player and today's. And there is some merit to this argument. A little physics settles this argument.

I compared a 260 lb DE from the 60s-70s to a 285 DE from the 90s to the present. A 40-yd dash will not produce meaningful results, largely because when using kinematic equations (as I did), it over-estimates final velocity (at 40 yd) and acceleration (the assumption being that acceleration is constant when using the equations). So, I took a 10-yard split and assumed today's top DEs can run a 1.6 sec split. Assuming today's DE runs a 40 somewhere around 0.3 sec faster, I assumed a 10-yard split of 1.9 sec for the 60s/70s player. I converted from English to SI units and ran my calculations.

I then compared kinetic energy and force generated by each player running unimpeded at full speed and making contact with a stationary player (e.g., DE runs 10 yards at full speed and explodes into the QB). KE = 1/2 * mass * velocity^2. F = mass * acceleration.

Results:

1960s/70s DE 260 lb top speed at 10 yd = 9.62 m/sec KE = 5459 Joules F = 598 Newtons
Current DE 285 lb top speed at 10 yd = 11.43 m/sec KE = 8447 Joules F = 924 Newtons

At the increased mass and velocity (and acceleration), today's DE would generate roughly 55% more kinetic energy and force.

But those are just numbers, and probably boring to most.

That said, it's folly to think of Roger Staubach as somehow not able to survive facing Reggie White, Jerome Brown and Clyde Simmons of the 90s Eagles. Yes, Philly had a great D-line; Reggie is probably the best DE in NFL history, and Jerome Brown was a truly great player at DT.

But Roger played against some of the great D-lines in history, and he played heroically against them: LA Rams Fearsome Foursome (Deacon Jones was there for only one game vs. Roger, but Merlin Olsen and Jack Youngblood were around), the Vikings Purple People Eaters (Alan Page is arguably the greatest pass rushing DT in history and Carl Eller is a HOFer), and the Steelers Steel Curtain. The 70s was the era of great D-lines and great MLBs.

Joe Greene didn't run a 40 the way guys do today, but to even suggest he was less physical or less intimidating fails to see just how terrific an opponent he was - and what a menace he was to opposing QBs and RBs. You don't think Olsen or Bob Lilly or Randy White were as physical as today's 1-techs and 3-techs? And before Roger's day, there were DEs like Gino Marchetti and Doug Atkins who were just plain strong and nasty and all-time greats.

Staubach played against a lot of great players in a day when the QB was not protected. He and Bradshaw took more punishment than any QB of the last 25 years - probably going back to Aikman.

And even though my figures above show obviously significant increases in force and energy, do you think LVE (who's considered another Urlacher by many) hits with the ferocity that Dick Butkus or Ray Nitschke delivered on almost every contact? LVE is similar in weight to Butkus and much faster, but Butkus destroyed people and instilled fear in the opposition like no LB this side of Lawrence Taylor.

The game back then was brutal. Rosters were smaller and guys (unfortunately) played with injuries in the 50s-70s that would put guys on the shelf today for weeks. The rules are much more protective today.

Roger had at least 11 documented concussions in his career - and probably more than that. He played recklessly, and if he played today he would probably learn to slide more and avoid direct hits.

So, while your point is true, namely that today's players are bigger and faster, it's also true that the guys in Roger's day were mentally and physically tough. Roger was 6'3" and 215 lb, and he was always in great condition, going back to his days at the Naval Academy. He retired at the top of his game at 37, and if the league had today's concussion protocols in place then, he could have played until he was 40 or 41 and would have still competed for NFL passing titles.

RoboQB, I agree with you in part and disagree in part. You have the physics above to defend your case, but those of us who watched games from that era know how violent it was and how the QB was not protected as he is today and took a lot of unnecessary punishment.

I respect the effort in your post. Keep in mind, I'm only referring to the 1975-1995 time period.
So, the LVE portion of your post is "folly". (Lol... just messin' with you).
I don't question the violence in the game was much different in the 70s than in the 90s.
Thank God and the Sabols for NFL Films.
 

kskboys

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White is out of the discussion as far as top 3. He had the league's best supporting cast the three years the team made it to the NFCC and lost. He was very good, and possibly #4 over Meredith, but then to borrow your line, I'm too young to know about Meredith.

Staubach led the league in passer rating four times. No other Dallas QB has done it more than once. Staubach was also the HOF's 1st team All-Decade QB. No other Dallas QB has even been 2nd team. Open and shut case, Staubach is #1, and probably top 5 all time (Graham, Montana, Manning, Brady all make a good case.) Staubach was ultra-competitive and just wouldn't be denied, and you can sense this in interviews to this day, and in his success in business

Aikman vs Romo is where it's interesting.
Meredith is easily 2/3.
 
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