Please stop bashing our starting QB

[Hostile]

Like he did in those first 3 Super Bowls?

Like he did in "The Drive" against Cleveland. Like he did with his clinching run in the Super Bowl against Green Bay where he got helicoptered through the air.

There's a reason he was compared to Staubach and it wasn't because he was a Dee Dee Dee.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

I'm with Mikey on this one.

Elway was such a great combination of mobility and traditional passing QB that he's harder to assess than the more stationary guys who simply shred defenses from the pocket.

A thoroughly legitimate Hall of Famer, and like Fran Tarkenton and subsequent mobilers, not given enough cedit for what he made happen with that kind of intuitive knowledge of when and where to run. That is a kind of mental processing that also indicates an understanding of the chess game nature of the playing field.

So it may be Elway had the absolute HIGHEST QB I & I of ALL of them. He'd rank pretty high on that QB rating system Aikman developed - the one that takes into consideration the multifarious ways QBs contrinute to the gam today.

But from the pocket, in sheer read and react time, ability to put the ball where it needed to be, and make consistently spot-on (no, I'm not Nors) judgments, he seemed to me to be somewhat less rapid a processor or quick a deliverer as a Marino, Namath, Montana.

Or an Aikman, for that matter.

 

[Cowchips]

It's my god given right to BI## about an ineffective quarterback that hardly accepts blame for INTs, new england had enough, the bills had enough, and soon enough we will have enough of him....

Yes, and when you become JJ or BP, we will all care about your uninformed opinions

Putting Romo in is writing off the season. JJ, BP and most fans aren't ready to do that.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Break the other team's will.

No, Q couldn't.

OK, say he did do that. Why could it not be said he did that through his tremendous physical skills first and foremost rather though the "Elway Mind Meld" as you are suggesting?

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

I'm with Mikey on this one.

Elway was such a great combination of mobility and traditional passing QB that he's harder to assess than the more stationary guys who simply shred defenses from the pocket.

A thoroughly legitimate Hall of Famer, and like Fran Tarkenton and subsequent mobilers, not given enough cedit for what he made happen with that kind of intuitive knowledge of when and where to run. That is a kind of mental processing that also indicates an understanding of the chess game nature of the playing field.

So it may be Elway had the absolute HIGHEST QB I & I of ALL of them. He'd rank pretty high on that QB rating system Aikman developed - the one that takes into consideration the multifarious ways QBs contrinute to the gam today.

But from the pocket, in sheer read and react time, ability to put the ball where it needed to be, and make consistently spot-on (no, I'm not Nors) judgments, he seemed to me to be somewhat less rapid a processor or quick a deliverer as a Marino, Namath, Montana.

Or an Aikman, for that matter.

But how does being what he was any indicator of his mental ability?

I don't recall other players making fun of his mental abilities ala how people did with Bradshaw.

Also who was as fast as marino getting rid of the ball, funny thing about that was there WERE questions about marino's intelligence when he was leaving college.

 

[Hostile]

OK, say he did do that. Why could it not be said he did that through his tremendous physical skills first and foremost rather though the "Elway Mind Meld" as you are suggesting?

I'm saying he "knew" when to go for the kill. That is intelligence of the game IMO.

He certainly doesn't fit the Bradshaw "couldn't spell cat if you spotted the C and the A" mold.

I've never heard anyone say Elway might not have had it going on upstairs.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

OK, say he did do that. Why could it not be said he did that through his tremendous physical skills first and foremost rather though the "Elway Mind Meld" as you are suggesting?

What is there to suggest he did not have good mental ability?

I can understand Bradshaw...just not seeing where you pull the same for Elway just because he had great phy ability. Not sure if it was a reach to make a comparison to Bledsoe or what it is.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

I'm saying he "knew" when to go for the kill. That is intelligence of the game IMO.

He certainly doesn't fit the Bradshaw "couldn't spell cat if you spotted the C and the A" mold.

I've never heard anyone say Elway might not have had it going on upstairs.

I am not sure Knowing when to go for the kill or not is a matter of mental ability.

However I also said that I don't recall anyone, other players, questioning his IQ ala bradshaw.

 

[Stautner]

Like he did in "The Drive" against Cleveland. Like he did with his clinching run in the Super Bowl against Green Bay where he got helicoptered through the air.

There's a reason he was compared to Staubach and it wasn't because he was a Dee Dee Dee.

The comparison to Staubach was in leadership and determination, not smarts.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

The comparison to Staubach was in leadership and determination, not smarts.

Could intelligence not be a part of leadership of a team?

Not saying it has to be but I still don't get where people think Elway was lacking in the IQ department.

 

[Hostile]

The comparison to Staubach was in leadership and determination, not smarts.

I've heard it for both.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

But how does being what he was any indicator of his mental ability?

I don't recall other players making fun of his mental abilities ala how people did with Bradshaw.

Also who was as fast as marino getting rid of the ball, funny thing about that was there WERE questions about marino's intelligence when he was leaving college.

BP, I really try to refrain from any comparisons or even remarks on 'intelligence', and limit them to QB I&I, constrained and nebulous as that formula may be.

It's not just that pure intellect differs from day-to-day intelligence, or that specialized intelligence is different from general, or crystalized from fluid..or any of other the very appropriate debates that keep me from the fray...like the difficulty in quantifying that which we can't even adequately describe.

It's that as a quarterback, Elway was smart enough to earn a first nomination ticket to the HOF.

So there is no way that intelligence in any form was an issue with him...just perhaps a slightly below Montana-Marino level neuro-muscular response time...if he saw miniscully 'less' of the field in a fraction of time more than a few others did, we will never know. I just feel as a fan who watched all of the qbs mentioned in this thread, Elway as a pure field processor was not quite as amazing.

A subjective take, but it has to be.

 

[CowboyJeff]

I'm not bashing the QB or the OL, but it's obvious neither is a good fit for the other.

Jeff

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Could intelligence not be a part of leadership of a team?

Not saying it has to be but I still don't get where people think Elway was lacking in the IQ department.

Come'on Brain!

I never said Elway needed to wear his helmet all the time nor did he need to hold hands with someone while crossing the street.

I just don't consider him as having the "football sense" of a Joe Montana, Steve Young, Roger or Aikman.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

BP, I really try to refrain from any comparisons or even remarks on 'intelligence', and limit them to QB I&I, constrained and nebulous as that formula may be.

It's not just that pure intellect differs from day-to-day intelligence, or that specialized intelligence is different from general, or crystalized from fluid..or any of other the very appropriate debates that keep me from the fray...like the difficulty in quantifying that which we can't even adequately describe.

It's that as a quarterback, Elway was smart enough to earn a first nomination ticket to the HOF.

So there is no way that intelligence in any form was an issue with him...just perhaps a slightly below Montana-Marino level neuro-muscular response time...if he saw miniscully 'less' of the field in a fraction of time more than a few others did, we will never know. I just feel as a fan who watched all of the qbs mentioned in this thread, Elway as a pure field processor was not quite as amazing.

A subjective take, but it has to be.

That is exactly how I see it also.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

BP, I really try to refrain from any comparisons or even remarks on 'intelligence', and limit them to QB I&I, constrained and nebulous as that formula may be.

It's not just that pure intellect differs from day-to-day intelligence, or that specialized intelligence is different from general, or crystalized from fluid..or any of other the very appropriate debates that keep me from the fray...like the difficulty in quantifying that which we can't even adequately describe.

It's that as a quarterback, Elway was smart enough to earn a first nomination ticket to the HOF.

So there is no way that intelligence in any form was an issue with him...just perhaps a slightly below Montana-Marino level neuro-muscular response time...if he saw miniscully 'less' of the field in a fraction of time more than a few others did, we will never know. I just feel as a fan who watched all of the qbs mentioned in this thread, Elway as a pure field processor was not quite as amazing.

A subjective take, but it has to be.

Well that's fair enough I guess.

Than again who was faster than Marino in that area? Concerning Montana he had to rely on his mental ability and also had a specific offense that took advantage of his lack of arm strength.

I just can't find a way to say anything negative about Elway in either category. He was far and away superior to Montana or Marino in his overall physical ability and at worst a little behind them in the other area.

One could argue that he was a better all around QB because he could throw and run and do it VERY well.

 

[Stautner]

Bottom line in all this is that Michael W's characterization, generally speaking, is accurate.

We could argue back and forth all day long as to exactly how every QB in the NFL should be characterized, but at the end of the day, Michaels's general idea is correct. Bledsoe has been a quality NFL QB, and that is mainly due to the quality of his throwing arm. The mental side is his drawback, and has kept him from being labled among the NFL elite at the position despite bigtime career numbers in certain categories (yardage and TD's).

Guys like Bradshaw also fall in that category, but his crossover into joining the greats in people's minds is due more to having been on great teams that won Super Bowls than his own personal talent.

At the other end of the spectrum are guys like Montana, who did not have particularly strong physical abilities, but his instincts and intellegence elevated him to one of the top QB's ever.

Elway, in my mind, fits somewhere in between. I think it's fair to say that Elway matured as he got older, developing beyond the player he was in his early years who relied almost solely on athleticism and a big arm to a much more efficient QB who learned the value of making better decsions, minimizing mistakes and focusing on higher percentage passes.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Come'on Brain!

I never said Elway needed to wear his helmet all the time nor did he need to hold hands with someone while crossing the street.

I just don't consider him as having the "football sense" of a Joe Montana, Steve Young, Roger or Aikman.

But that is so vague. I mean the guy was one of the very best QBs that has ever played the game.
He is probably the best Overall QB to play the game.

But just because he was a micro second slower than marino he is going to be lumped into the category with bledsoe.

Comeon even you have to admit you were reaching big time with that comparison.

By the time bledoe finishes patting the ball looking for an open WR, Elway would have been 10-15 yards running down field picking up a td.

I just think you lumped him in with the wrong group.

 

[Stautner]

But that is so vague. I mean the guy was one of the very best QBs that has ever played the game.
He is probably the best Overall QB to play the game.

But just because he was a micro second slower than marino he is going to be lumped into the category with bledsoe.

Comeon even you have to admit you were reaching big time with that comparison.

By the time bledoe finishes patting the ball looking for an open WR, Elway would have been 10-15 yards running down field picking up a td.

I just think you lumped him in with the wrong group.

What does any of this have to do with whether or not Elway had the same level of football sense as Young, Roger or Aikman?

 

[LaTunaNostra]

One could argue that he was a better all around QB because he could throw and run and do it VERY well.

And that would be an excellent argument to make. One I hope starts to enter the QB I&I equation very soon....as it's not only relevant to assessing the whole qb and his contributions to the game, but because combining a runner's more bird's eye view with the qb's wider holistic vision is such a fascinating ability.

But I can tell you right now, Bledsoe sucks in that thread as well..