Question for the workout people

[jterrell]

I smoked for well over 14 years and in 2000 I quit smoking. I gained 30 pounds (155lbs to 185lbs) in less than 45 days. I was not anywhere near fat at 185lbs. (I'm 6 foot tall) It's all about your frame. You can take on weight quite quickly. Even muscle if your frame is capable. The smoking is what kept me ungodly thin no matter how much I ate. (I was flag pole thin at 155lbs)

Yea. my dad likely was a smoker when he went in as well.

I definitely wasn't tho. My weight gain was merely because my workouts went from running long distances and doing push ups and sit ups to lifting heavy weights.
5'11" and 120 was begging to add weight and I couldn't eat enough to get full that summer. for the next 3 years of high schooI ate 2 meals at lunch but only added another 20 pounds Every time I have significantly increased my max out numbers I have increased by weight. That summer I went from bodyweight squats and bench presses (35 each side plus the bar--115) to 245 in both.

Then I lost weight at Tech as a freshman football player on a 5000 calorie diet that started with a steak and eggs every morning for breakfast.

Sometimes it is just about body chemistry.
Now I max out at 450 or so squat and 300 or so bench but weigh 215.
The older I get the easier it is to add strength and weight.
Any added water weight is really good for strength.

 

[xwalker]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/maki2.htm

The Colgan Institute of Nutritional Sciences (located in San Diego, Calif.) run by Dr Michael Colgan PH.D., a leading sport nutritionist explains that in his extensive experience, the most muscle gain he or any of his colleagues have recorded over a year was 18 1/4 lbs. Dr Colgan goes on to state that "because of the limiting rate of turnover in the muscle cells it is impossible to grow more than an ounce of new muscle each day."

They say they believe the theoretical max is 23 lbs.

In regards to people who report gaining more:
Most have been fooled into believing that a large percentage is muscle when most of it is due to an increase in glycogen stores, body fat and water.

 

[jterrell]

Body Builders go though a phase where they gain weight of both fat and muscle. At some point, before their next competition they get out of that phase and start losing the fat and get to the competition with minimal body fat.

The issue for Gregory is that the "get fat" and bulk up phase of the off-season has already passed for the most part. He is in the phase where he needs to be getting ready to on-field work and eventually training camp. Then he will be in the training camp and regular season phase of the year. His best chance to really bulk up will come right after the season is over.

this.

the concern for Gregory with me is just that.
he did the awards circuit and had a goal of gaining weight yet didn't.
he was also testing positive for an appetite enhancing drug.
so there is legit concern about his frame.

guys like sean lee, dat and moose weighed 240 or so but really had the body for 215 or so.
it is hard work maintaining all that weight beyond your frame.

 

[jobberone]

Body Builders go though a phase where they gain weight of both fat and muscle. At some point, before their next competition they get out of that phase and start losing the fat and get to the competition with minimal body fat.

The issue for Gregory is that the "get fat" and bulk up phase of the off-season has already passed for the most part. He is in the phase where he needs to be getting ready to on-field work and eventually training camp. Then he will be in the training camp and regular season phase of the year. His best chance to really bulk up will come right after the season is over.

Yeah, he can't work out enough now to burn a huge amount of calories and stay in mild ketosis. Too many calories now will be more fat than muscle. But he's in the weight room so a healthy diet will allow him to put on some muscle mass just not a great deal. He can still get stronger with what he has though.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Well it wasn't fat so the weight gain was muscle. It's either fat or muscle. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand where the weight went. My comment was a humble way to say while not completely chiseled I was very muscular. And since LBM and BMI are all over the place for various reasons, looking in the mirror is actually the best way to guide your workouts.

I've had professional training in this so it's mildly annoying to put up with your nonsense esp since they border on personal attacks.

So we'll do each other a favor and avoid any further conversation between the two of us on this particular topic.

So because you couldn't do... no one can or ever could. Is that what your going with. Your starting to make yourself look bad. People from all over the world have done it. I wouldn't say a professional athlete that is already at his peak could gain that much in such a short period of time but if your talking about high school / college kids that haven't had a stable and quality diet with a poor habits going to a quality regimen with good food, sleep, and workout routine then it absolutely is possible because it HAS happened over and over again... Thanks for playing tho.

Let's go ahead and put this stuff to bed...

The McDonald Model

Notice how the estimated 2 pounds per month is only roughly 0.5lb per week, which is not a very fast pace. But over a year, that 2lb per month adds up to a solid 24lb of muscle. Certainly one, or more of the five factors above can affect the pace of muscle gain upward, or downward. While the values in the preceding chart apply to males, Lyle recommends females use roughly half of these values (e.g. 10-12 pounds in the first year of proper training).

The Alan Aragon Model

lan Aragon is an exercise physiologist who is constantly staying on top of the latest exercise and nutrition research. In a monthly Research Review, he addressed the issue of rates of muscle gain in terms of percentage gain for natural lifters. Here’s what he came up with:

This means a 130lb teenager who never has lifted weights might gain 1.3-1.95 pounds of muscle per month (15-23 pounds per year) in a year with a great lifting program and eating plan. After a year, he’s now at around 155lb and might be capable of gaining 0.77-1.55 lbs per month (9-18 pounds per year.

After another year of proper training and smart eating, he’s now at 170lb and is in the advanced lifter category. From here on out, he may only gain 0.5-1 lb per month, at which point the closer he approaches his maximum muscle potential, the slower the rate of muscle growth. That’s why most of the big guys at the gym have been lifting for a good 5-10 years.

http://www.builtlean.com/2011/10/13...d-muscle-5-factors-that-affect-muscle-growth/

So in the best-case scenario (i.e. you’re an untrained guy in your late teens or early twenties), you can expect to gain, on average, somewhere between 6-7 pounds of muscle in your first few months of training.

http://muscleevo.net/how-fast-can-you-build-muscle

Often, people believe that if they take in 3,500 more calories during a week that they will be successful at packing on slabs of muscle. However, the old adage that one pound equates to 3,500 calories is right for fat but not muscle. If you want to gain one pound of fat, then you should be taking in an extra 3,500 calories per week. Now there's one way of putting on some weight!

As I mentioned earlier, the body's multiple systems are all intricately interconnected: if one system has not undergone the proper adaptation, then the results will show in the form of a failure to produce optimal hypertrophy of the muscle complex. For example, if we were to look at some of the soft tissues involved in the hypertrophy process of the muscle complex, we'd see that muscle would generally adapt to a load within several days.

Unlike the tendons and ligaments, studies have shown that muscle responds by adapting after a period of several weeks or even months of progressive loading (McDough & Davies, 1984). It also should be noted that the protein turnover rate in collagen occurs approximately every 1000 days.

This clearly shows that even if one were to gain in body weight, the body would only be able to accommodate a certain amount in the form of muscle; otherwise, the muscles would fall prey to injury due to the time span in adaptation rates for various other tissues.

Those who scoff at this and continue to believe they've gained super size over such a short period forget, as suggested earlier, that much of the increased body weight is largely due to increased body fat stores, glycogen and water.

Hypertrophy of the muscle complex has, so far, been shown to be controlled by what is known as protein turnover (the breakdown of damaged muscle proteins and creation of new and stronger ones). This process takes time. Just as the many living organisms around us in nature require time to grow, so do our muscles. In our enzymes the protein turnover rate occurs approximately every 7-10 minutes. In the liver and plasma, it's every 10 days.

And in the hemoglobin it's every 120 days. In the muscles, protein turnover rate occurs approximately every 180 days (6 months). This lends even more support to the observation that the turnover rate limits the natural body (of the non drug-using athlete, bodybuilder) in building muscle quickly.
When it comes to muscle gain there is no dramatic technique or quick fix that will allow you to pack on more muscle naturally. It's better to stay focused and realistic by training hard, eating meticulously and spending time to recuperate properly; this will result in you achieving a more muscular physique. Keep in mind that it's physiologically impossible to gain more than one pound of lean muscle per week.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/maki2.htm

Hmmm science seems to deem your claims as impossible. But people looking at themselves in the mirror inherently can prove science false.

Ok.

 

[jterrell]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/maki2.htm

The Colgan Institute of Nutritional Sciences (located in San Diego, Calif.) run by Dr Michael Colgan PH.D., a leading sport nutritionist explains that in his extensive experience, the most muscle gain he or any of his colleagues have recorded over a year was 18 1/4 lbs. Dr Colgan goes on to state that "because of the limiting rate of turnover in the muscle cells it is impossible to grow more than an ounce of new muscle each day."

They say they believe the theoretical max is 23 lbs.

But you can gain 8 pounds by drinking a gallon of water in the next 2 minutes without fail.
Most bulking phases includes lots of water gain because water protects the joints and floods muscles as blood leaves.

Most people try to get a really good "pump". That is temporary but if you are ingesting water during a workout water will remain behind in the muscles.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/maki2.htm

The Colgan Institute of Nutritional Sciences (located in San Diego, Calif.) run by Dr Michael Colgan PH.D., a leading sport nutritionist explains that in his extensive experience, the most muscle gain he or any of his colleagues have recorded over a year was 18 1/4 lbs. Dr Colgan goes on to state that "because of the limiting rate of turnover in the muscle cells it is impossible to grow more than an ounce of new muscle each day."

They say they believe the theoretical max is 23 lbs.

In regards to people who report gaining more:
Most have been fooled into believing that a large percentage is muscle when most of it is due to an increase in glycogen stores, body fat and water.

It is quite literally a joke that people think they added 20 pounds of muscle in 3 months.

And someone went even further and said they gained 40lbs of Muscle in 7 months. LOL

 

[jterrell]

Let's go ahead and put this stuff to bed...




Hmmm science seems to deem your claims as impossible. But people looking at themselves in the mirror inherently can prove science false.

Ok.

Please stop posting misleading things.

The McDonald model is talking about AVERAGE lifetime muscle gains.
It even states right up front there is an ability gain weight rapidly upfront for developing high school age kids or others who experience a change in lifestyle.

The model is for a currently active bodybuilder going forward.
Not someone who spikes their own testosterone by working out with heavy weights or eating high protein diets for the first time.

Please note that these are averages and make a few assumptions about proper training and nutrition and such. As well, age will interact with this; older individuals won’t gain as quickly and younger individuals may gain more quickly. For example, it’s not unheard of for underweight high school kids to gain muscle very rapidly. But they are usually starting out very underweight and have the natural anabolic steroid cycle called puberty working for them.


Year of training also refers to proper years of training. Someone who has been training poorly for 4 years and gained squat for muscle gains may still have roughly the Year 1 potential when they start training properly.


Now, if you total up those values, you get a gain of roughly 40-50 pounds of total muscle mass over a lifting career although it might take a solid 4+ years of proper training to achieve that. So if you started with 130 pound of lean body mass (say in high school you were 150 pounds with 12% body fat), you might have the potential to reach a level of 170-180 pounds of lean body mass after 4-5 years of proper training. At 12% body fat, that would put you at a weight of 190-200 pounds.


Again, that’s a rough average, you might find some who gain a bit more and some who gain a bit less. And there will be other factors that impact on the above numbers (e.g. age, hormones, etc.).

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Please stop posting misleading things.

The McDonald model is talking about AVERAGE lifetime muscle gains.
It even states right up front there is an ability gain weight rapidly upfront for developing high school age kids or others who experience a change in lifestyle.

The model is for a currently active bodybuilder going forward.
Not someone who spikes their own testosterone by working out with heavy weights or eating high protein diets for the first time.

Please note that these are averages and make a few assumptions about proper training and nutrition and such. As well, age will interact with this; older individuals won’t gain as quickly and younger individuals may gain more quickly. For example, it’s not unheard of for underweight high school kids to gain muscle very rapidly. But they are usually starting out very underweight and have the natural anabolic steroid cycle called puberty working for them.

Year of training also refers to proper years of training. Someone who has been training poorly for 4 years and gained squat for muscle gains may still have roughly the Year 1 potential when they start training properly.

Now, if you total up those values, you get a gain of roughly 40-50 pounds of total muscle mass over a lifting career although it might take a solid 4+ years of proper training to achieve that. So if you started with 130 pound of lean body mass (say in high school you were 150 pounds with 12% body fat), you might have the potential to reach a level of 170-180 pounds of lean body mass after 4-5 years of proper training. At 12% body fat, that would put you at a weight of 190-200 pounds.

Again, that’s a rough average, you might find some who gain a bit more and some who gain a bit less. And there will be other factors that impact on the above numbers (e.g. age, hormones, etc.).

Right in the first chart it says years of training and starts at 1. And it says the max 2 lbs per month. Which is right in line with the theorized 23lbs in a year max.

Muscle gain is limited by protein turnover. It is a physiological process.

Nothing you say will change human biology.

What you or others in this thread experienced was nowhere close to 20 lbs of muscle gain in a few weeks. It. Did. Not. Happen.

 

[jobberone]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/maki2.htm

The Colgan Institute of Nutritional Sciences (located in San Diego, Calif.) run by Dr Michael Colgan PH.D., a leading sport nutritionist explains that in his extensive experience, the most muscle gain he or any of his colleagues have recorded over a year was 18 1/4 lbs. Dr Colgan goes on to state that "because of the limiting rate of turnover in the muscle cells it is impossible to grow more than an ounce of new muscle each day."

They say they believe the theoretical max is 23 lbs.

In regards to people who report gaining more:
Most have been fooled into believing that a large percentage is muscle when most of it is due to an increase in glycogen stores, body fat and water.

That's bunk. You only have a limited amount of glycogen (carbs) stored in your liver and the body consumes that pretty quickly. If you have normal renal and venous/lymphatic function you aren't going to fluctuate much with water weight. You may weigh a few lbs more at the end of the day compared to wake up but that's normal. If you're gaining water weight then somethings wrong. Now you can take meds that will increase your water content but we're not talking that.

If you're talking overall water volume per mass then that's not to change much either. Obviously the larger you get the more weight you will carry in water but the ratio isn't going to change much.

But to the OP topic Gregory isn't going to add a lot of muscle mass now. He can get stronger. He doesn't need to add mass without being careful about his quickness and acceleration. We definitely agree there.

 

[jterrell]

a few notes:
Gregory needs to gain weight and strength. No one is suggesting he needs to gain 20 pounds of pure raw muscle without an ounce of water. That'd be both stupid and dangerous. Water adds tremendously to strength potential and of course overall weight. He isn't in some cutting weigh in sport.
The average person who starts working out to lose weight gets upset because they often actually gain weight first. Even cardio centric workouts often cause increases in weight up front as you activate the glycogen stores in the body. Your joints and muscles begin to absorb water as part of the healing process.

Women can add 40 to 50 pounds during 9 months of pregnancy. The human body can obviously deal with the weight so while muscle fibres may be limited in growth the body itself can easily adjust to large weight gains in a short period. And they obviously occur.

The body itself produces HGH and testosterone. Heavy weight workouts have been shown to be the easiest way to increase this production. --so yes a natural steroid phenomena occurs.
Taking a young person in puberty and combining that with heavy weight workuts will cause large gains in bodyweight and muscle. It happens every day to thousands of teenagers.

I coach a girls AAU basketball program. Many of them have gained 15-20 pounds this year largely because they are 8th/9th graders. They are gaining overall weight including water even though they are all in extremetly good cardio condition and run sprints primarily. But they have been getting weights for the first time in their life and any bodyweight exercises have increased in intensity with their own weight gains. All the increased workloads makes them hungrier and sleepier. My own daughter is about 135 pounds with visible muscle definition now and eats more than me and takes naps like a pre-schooler.

As you gain weight you SHOULD add bodyfat percentage. The body itself is not all muscle and fat. As you add weight the percentages increase of BOTH muscle AND fat. Your organs, bones and other bodyparts are not going to be part of the percentages so a person say 10% bodyfat that weighs 150 should see a rise to 12% or so at 165 AND look better. It will appear to be all muscle. So of course said person will be like I have gained 15 pounds of muscle. Even tho they'd follow the pretty normal 10 pounds of muscle 5 pounds of water/fat model.

 

[TrailBlazer]

It doesn't have to be all muscle. Just weight to throw around.

 

[jobberone]

Let's go ahead and put this stuff to bed...




Hmmm science seems to deem your claims as impossible. But people looking at themselves in the mirror inherently can prove science false.

Ok.

One last post since you quoted me. I went to med school for 4 years and have 6 years of formal postdoctoral training which includes Internal Medicine, General Surgery and OB/GYN. I also passed my boards in Emergency Medicine via the grandfather clause. I worked for one year in a burn unit where almost every patient was given nutrition via hyperalimentation. So I had formal training in nutrition and hyperalimentation both centrally and peripherally as well as years of studying how the human body functions.

So forgive me if I don't lend any credence to your claims I don't know the science when all you've done is scoff and mock.

Now that I've vented my annoyance let me say that any further posts that directly or indirectly mock, imply people are creatively telling nontruths, or whatever else is less than civil will have their posts deleted.

 

[AbeBeta]

Let's go ahead and put this stuff to bed...




Hmmm science seems to deem your claims as impossible. But people looking at themselves in the mirror inherently can prove science false.

Ok.

Science is based on what the average person will do. Physically, professional football players are not well above average. You can't apply models based on average people and claim they apply to guys in the 99th percentile physically.

 

[YosemiteSam]

WAR! Lets start one over this!

 

[Toruk_Makto]

One last post since you quoted me. I went to med school for 4 years and have 6 years of formal postdoctoral training which includes Internal Medicine, General Surgery and OB/GYN. I also passed my boards in Emergency Medicine via the grandfather clause. I worked for one year in a burn unit where almost every patient was given nutrition via hyperalimentation. So I had formal training in nutrition and hyperalimentation both centrally and peripherally as well as years of studying how the human body functions.

So forgive me if I don't lend any credence to your claims I don't know the science when all you've done is scoff and mock.

Now that I've vented my annoyance let me say that any further posts that directly or indirectly mock, imply people are creatively telling nontruths, or whatever else is less than civil will have their posts deleted.

I don't think i've been uncivil. I'm just stating that physically it is impossible to gain 20lbs of muscle mass in 3 months.

I was a Biomedical Engineering major, spent every summer working in a musculoskeletal tissue engineering lab, wrote the MCAT and got into a top med school. I then decided not to go....worked in finance....got my MBA from a top 10 school...and now work at one of the most prestigious investment banks on Earth.

Are we done peacocking?

To the OP I hope you now see how impossible it'd be for Randy to gain so much weight in muscle mass. But 10lbs of good weight is doable and the Cowboys are working him through it.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Science is based on what the average person will do. Physically, professional football players are not well above average. You can't apply models based on average people and claim they apply to guys in the 99th percentile physically.

Well there is a theoretical max amount of muscle mass that a member of the human race can put on in a defined time. For superstar athletes and regular folks like us alike.

 

[jterrell]

Right in the first chart it says years of training and starts at 1. And it says the max 2 lbs per month. Which is right in line with the theorized 23lbs in a year max.

Muscle gain is limited by protein turnover. It is a physiological process.

Nothing you say will change human biology.

What you or others in this thread experienced was nowhere close to 20 lbs of muscle gain in a few weeks. It. Did. Not. Happen.

And in the first sentence after the chart it says those are AVERAGES.
It notes that there are up front gains for many reasons which have been seen by most every person alive who has ever actually lifted a friggin weight.

I am going to assume that doesn't include you if you are being this insipid and willfully lying to yourself about the articles you link.

I gained 45 pounds of total weight in 3 months.
I didn't measure muscle and didn't care to.
I was bigger, stronger, faster with better cardio and went from a freshman wide receiver to a sophomore varsity linebacker in 10-5A Texas high school football.
I looked great and was lean. 5'11", 165 running a 4.65 40 with visible 6 pack. I was also the schools best cross country runner.

Muscle gains PER fiber may well be limited but the body can in fact grow. People gain height and weight rapidly all the time. Shaq was a 6'6" freshman that graduated high school over 7 foot tall with about 50 pounds of weight gain. Jason Sasser signed with Tech as a 6'3" junior out of south Oak Cliff and showed up 6'7" only 18 months later. Crazy odd for that late bloomer but it happens.

No one gains muscle weight alone. It is virtually impossible via the same science. The process of adding muscle requires support and those supporting factors boost weight.
That is why bodybuilders even with drug intervention bulk then cut. They can't add weight sufficently without supporting water/fat.

You are trying to make a scientific argument but you really have zero real world idea of what in the heck you are talking about.
Instead of paying attention to the the more than half the people in the thread giving you real life examples you are suggesting they are all lying which makes you a pretty big tool.

 

[AbeBeta]

Well there is a theoretical max amount of muscle mass that a member of the human race can put on in a defined time. For superstar athletes and regular folks like us alike.

What you are missing is that theories focus on people in the fat part of the curve - not the tails. No theory is 100% predictive of outcomes with humans - particularly so when focusing on the elite.

 

[AsthmaField]

Some very interesting dialogue in this thread...