RAS Cowboys TEs

[thunderpimp91]

I don't really get your point.

Witten was an excellent YAC guy when he came out. Led all TEs in 2007.

My point is that whether Schoon is a RAS player or not, it's not going to show up on gameday because the differences you're talking about don't matter as they relate to other players.

Based on your final sentence it may be better to simply agree to disagree and we can find out here in about 6 months if Schoon can be a difference-making player or not. Honestly, I have no idea how good of a player he ends up being, I think the potential is there though based on him simply being a well rounded player with very smooth movements on the field.

My point sort of evolved into multiple points which may be getting confusing, but initially in comparing Schoon to Witten was that Witten was a difference-making TE, high RAS score, but didn't always look that way on film, which is very similar to what we see on Schoon's college tapes. Even in some of his later years we all made fun of how slow Witten looked, but he still was a consistent YAC player. As you said even Witten was a great YAC guy at times, even league leading, but it's not like he was doing it in a Gronk type of fashion. He was a master of falling forward. He was excellent and finding holes in zone coverage and running free. He was great at using a stiff arm by the sideline to pick up 2 extra yards. I'm really just pointing out the similarities here between the two players both with high RAS scores, but not necessarily traditional high RAS film. What that ends up meaning for the 2023 season? No idea but excited to find out.

 

[thunderpimp91]

The game was a little bit different in 2004 but a corner who isn't Deoin Sanders at #4 is a bad pick every time.

Chido was great and they should have re-signed him. He was a second-round pick drafted at age 21

I can't agree with that statement enough. A CB room last year of Diggs/Chido/Brown/Lewis/Bland would have been one of the best in the league, especially with this pass rush. Looking back it seems Chido was a pro bowl DB who was playing in a system that he just wasn't built for.

 

[Mac_MaloneV1]

Based on your final sentence it may be better to simply agree to disagree and we can find out here in about 6 months if Schoon can be a difference-making player or not. Honestly, I have no idea how good of a player he ends up being, I think the potential is there though based on him simply being a well rounded player with very smooth movements on the field.

My point sort of evolved into multiple points which may be getting confusing, but initially in comparing Schoon to Witten was that Witten was a difference-making TE, high RAS score, but didn't always look that way on film, which is very similar to what we see on Schoon's college tapes. Even in some of his later years we all made fun of how slow Witten looked, but he still was a consistent YAC player. As you said even Witten was a great YAC guy at times, even league leading, but it's not like he was doing it in a Gronk type of fashion. He was a master of falling forward. He was excellent and finding holes in zone coverage and running free. He was great at using a stiff arm by the sideline to pick up 2 extra yards. I'm really just pointing out the similarities here between the two players both with high RAS scores, but not necessarily traditional high RAS film. What that ends up meaning for the 2023 season? No idea but excited to find out.

Fair enough. I guess just my last things would be that

- Jason Witten very much looked like a RAS player coming out, and was special because of his ability to get vertical.
- I think Schoon is a good athlete and I think Ferg is a good athlete. Either can be a difference maker, to some degree. I just don't think Schoon is enough of a better athlete to make a difference in that regard, because physically they're still going to be able to do the same things.

 

[Kwyn]

He's a few months older.

But that entire extra year to develop physically in college is going to influence your RAS. Every athlete gets bigger, stronger, faster when they're in their early 20s. At 25, there's still some room for that, but you've mostly maxed out your athleticism.

Your point being, what?

 

[HungryLion]

Not enough is made from age when you're talking about athleticism, especially when you're talking about development.

A guy who is 24 is going to test better than a guy who is 23. Having mono 8 years ago isn't going to change that.

Newman never got better after his rookie year (which, he was NFL ready) and signed his second contract at nearly 30. He was a dumb pick.

I don’t get where this argument is coming from. From a strength perspective sure. But speed or quickness?

Do you have any actual proof that RAS gets higher with age?

 

[plasticman]

Four TE's were drafted ahead of Jason Witten on 2003 just as four were drafted ahead of Schoonmaker in this draft. The four TE's drafted ahead of Witten had a combined one Pro Bowl selection. Witten had 11. Nine TE's were drafted ahead of HOFer Shannon Sharpe.

Eight TE's were drafted ahead of three time SB champion, five time Pro Bowler Jay Novacek. He wasn't even the first TE taken by the team that drafted him that season

College stats, profile scores, even age mean very little in the scheme of things. It comes down to commitment to be the best you can be, great coaching, and opportunity.

One of the TE's drafted ahead of Witten, Bennie Joppru, never caught a single pass. It took three seasons for him to appear in the one game he played for the team that drafted him.

Which of the three young Cowboys TE's will end up being the most relevant by the end of their careers? That's what competition is all about.

 

[big dog cowboy]

I doubt any of the 3 TEs on the Cowboys roster gets mistaken for Travis Kelce

There is 4. And let's face it, there is only one Kelce.

 

[big dog cowboy]

I think that the Cowboys planned to pick Schoonmaker in the 2nd round, because they wanted someone who can block AND also be a good pass catcher. I don't think it was a panic move by the Cowboys.

Now, you and I may not agree with the strategy, but it doesn't mean the Cowboys didn't have a plan. Teams draft to their scheme, and Schoonmaker fits what the Cowboys want in a TE. This notion that the Cowboys panicked because of a run on TE's doesn't fit the mold of recent drafts.

Exactly.

 

[thunderpimp91]

There is 4. And let's face it, there is only one Kelce.

If we are getting specific about it, they have 6 TEs on the roster, and there are two Kelces' in the league

 

[Hennessy_King]

RAS (Relative Athletic Score): A method to compare players of different sizes.
- i.e. A 4.4 forty for a 170-pound player is much different than a 4.4 for a 260-pound player.

9.66 Luke Schoonmaker (16th best of 1105 TEs since 1987).
8.40 Peyton Hendershot
7.11 Dalton Schultz
6.74 Jake Ferguson

The TE with the worst RAS score hurdled another man in a game. someone make it make sense.

 

[Cowboysheelsreds058]

Don't understand

Rick James

 

[john van brocklin]

Four TE's were drafted ahead of Jason Witten on 2003 just as four were drafted ahead of Schoonmaker in this draft. The four TE's drafted ahead of Witten had a combined one Pro Bowl selection. Witten had 11. Nine TE's were drafted ahead of HOFer Shannon Sharpe.

Eight TE's were drafted ahead of three time SB champion, five time Pro Bowler Jay Novacek. He wasn't even the first TE taken by the team that drafted him that season

College stats, profile scores, even age mean very little in the scheme of things. It comes down to commitment to be the best you can be, great coaching, and opportunity.

One of the TE's drafted ahead of Witten, Bennie Joppru, never caught a single pass. It took three seasons for him to appear in the one game he played for the team that drafted him.

Which of the three young Cowboys TE's will end up being the most relevant by the end of their careers? That's what competition is all about.

Yep, you cant measure desire and a commitment to be your best.

 

[Cowboysheelsreds058]

Beeeyotch!

Yes! Beeeeyotch

 

[Mac_MaloneV1]

I don’t get where this argument is coming from. From a strength perspective sure. But speed or quickness?

Do you have any actual proof that RAS gets higher with age?

No because guys don't go to the combine twice.

But every athlete develops physically as they get older until they're 26-27, so it makes sense that they'd end up more explosive too.

Strength, especially as it relates to core and legs, can really change a player's RAS in the explosives.

 

[Mac_MaloneV1]

Your point being, what?

That Schoonmaker's RAS, relative to Ferg, is pretty meaningless.

 

[Jipper]

Rick James

haha yes yes, that was what i was going for!

 

[HungryLion]

No because guys don't go to the combine twice.

But every athlete develops physically as they get older until they're 26-27, so it makes sense that they'd end up more explosive too.

Strength, especially as it relates to core and legs, can really change a player's RAS in the explosives.

Increased strength certainly can improve strength. However I don’t know how much faster a player can get.

There are a lot more factors to it than just age. You can’t just assume they’ll be better as they age.

 

[HungryLion]

The TE with the worst RAS score hurdled another man in a game. someone make it make sense.

Even average NFL athletes are amazing physical specimens. That’s about the only explanation I got for ya.

 

[Mac_MaloneV1]

Increased strength certainly can improve strength. However I don’t know how much faster a player can get.

There are a lot more factors to it than just age. You can’t just assume they’ll be better as they age.

It's not about faster, it's about more explosive. Broad, vertical, even 3-cone can all improve.

They're professional athletes. The ones who don't develop physically don't have long careers.

 

[thunderpimp91]

No because guys don't go to the combine twice.

But every athlete develops physically as they get older until they're 26-27, so it makes sense that they'd end up more explosive too.

Strength, especially as it relates to core and legs, can really change a player's RAS in the explosives.

I agree. The argument really shouldn't be about is this true or not but to what extent it's true. Especially the younger a player is. I can go watch a single A minor league baseball game where scouts rave out this 20-year-old that is tearing up the league, but hardly care about the 21-year-old with similar numbers because hes "old for the league". As you get into the mid 20s the difference isn't as drastic but still needs to be factored into the equation. I think age and how long they've been in school matter in regard to these drills. A 5th year senior has had 5 years with college trainers to prep specifically for these drills and have gone over technique time and time again. Once these guys get into the league they don't care about their 40 times, and specific techniques to run the 3 cone as they'll never run these again.