Read-option quarterbacks are fair game on fakes, NFL says

[SkinsHokieFan]

Yes, as opposed to most times which are 11 on 10. It makes a big difference. Especially if the one player you're removing every play is Demarcus Ware.

I really think people equate the read option to the triple option.

The Commanders ran some triple option vs the Bengals in week 3 and Robert got killed. I didn't think he would last through the game because of the shots he was taking after pitching the ball.

In the read option there is no instance of the QB running down the line and pitching the ball. He is at a mesh point 5 yards behind the LOS

 

[Yakuza Rich]

This tough talk has cracked me up for a while. You are going to have DE's chasing QB's 7 yards behind the LOS, after he has shown he doesn't have the ball, and RB's gashing those defenses for 200 yards a game.

Uh....that's called 'weak side containment.' Or just another version of 'spying the QB.' Which has only been going on for decades. All that does is it makes the game more 10 on 10 instead of 10 on 11. And weak side contain happens all of the time so the game is usually 10 on 10 on running plays anyway. Actually, most running plays are more like 4 on 4 or 4 on 5...but that's an entirely different matter.

No worries, I fully believe that come midway thru the year teams will have a good grasp as to how to stop the Read Option from a schematic standpoint without making it mandatory to hit the QB. Just like the Seahawks did to the Commanders in the playoffs. In Week 17, Rob Ryan figured out how to stop the passing end of it as RG3 had a dreadful game throwing the ball. The problem was the defense was so depleted with injuries that they couldn't tackle Morris. Tough to do so when you're bringing up guys off the street.

I'm not worried about the R/O in the least. I think the pistol formation is here to stay. I think eventually down the road teams will go to a pistol formation with packaged plays and ditch the R/O for the most part. Then that will be countered with more blitzing and eventually that will go to pistol formation packaged plays with the O-Line using pass protection instead of run blocking techniques.






YR

 

[ConstantReboot]

Not at all. Do you not understand how fast these guys are?

Look at what the 49ers did to the Falcons. Or what they did to the Ravens in the 2nd half.

It was clear the free unblocked man was gunning for Kapernick. Gore had all sorts of room to run once he got the ball.

What the R/O does that DC's talk about all the time is make it a 11 on 11 game, vs a 11 on 10 game. The numbers for the D are thrown out of whack

So if you want your DE to just take himself out of the play every down, be my guest

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id...ching-nfl-coaches-know-how-defend-read-option

Notice the last picture in the article

The arc block is what is going to destroy this "defense" Matthews is gunning for the QB, that is what the scrape exchange technique is based on, the free man/DE/3-4 OLB being assigned the QB, while the inside LB rotates over the top to the outside.

To focus a bit more on your point I found clips from the ATL-SF game where the Falcons were clearly attacking Kapernick

You see what John Abraham is clearly doing and that is at the snap, once he saw the pistol formation, is heading straight for the QB

And you see the big hole left for Frank Gore. And Abraham is nowhere near Kapernick

A nice gain for Gore and Kap is sitting way behind the LOS with nobody near him

One more just to make the point clear

Again, DE attacks Kapernick

DE pays no attention to Gore, who has the ball, is nowhere near Kapernick, who doesn't have the ball, and its an easy TD with Kap chillin in the backfield.

That is what this strategy will yield. Lots of big plays for Alfred Morris and Frank Gore

Those plays yielded big plays because it froze the defense into thinking whether its run or pass. Now if the DE went straight for the QB knowing that he will get an easy sack on the QB, that will take away the pass. Thus leaving the rest of the defense to focus on the run. When the guesswork of the read option is removed, it will no longer be that hard to stop.

 

[ConstantReboot]

Yes, as opposed to most times which are 11 on 10. It makes a big difference. Especially if the one player you're removing every play is Demarcus Ware.

If you can remove their QB from passing with just one player, even though is Dware, this will make it easier for the defense to stop the run.

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

No worries, I fully believe that come midway thru the year teams will have a good grasp as to how to stop the Read Option from a schematic standpoint without making it mandatory to hit the QB. Just like the Seahawks did to the Commanders in the playoffs. In Week 17, Rob Ryan figured out how to stop the passing end of it as RG3 had a dreadful game throwing the ball. The problem was the defense was so depleted with injuries that they couldn't tackle Morris. Tough to do so when you're bringing up guys off the street.

I






YR

Seattle struggled terribly while Griffin was healthy. Once injured that changed everything.

And Robert was completeing passes out of the R/O formation the entire night. His problems were in traditional passing sets where Ryan flooded the zone trying to prevent another T-Giving destruction of his secondary from occuring again

As Kyle Shanahan says in this terrific article

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/09/05/kyle-shanahan-rg3-read-option/

Kyle Shanahan agrees: “Robert averaged pulling [the ball back] about four or five times per game. That’s what is entertaining to hear—that we ran a different offense. We didn’t run a different offense; we ran the same offense that I’ve been running here for three years. But we added another part. We added the zone-read, and it opened up everything else.”

What excites me is when people ask, ‘What do you do when people stop it?’ We’ll do what we’ve always done—play football like we always have. We’re going to do our offense. This is just another weapon we have that people have to worry about. All that does is help us use our other weapons. You better worry about it.

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

If you can remove their QB from passing with just one player, even though is Dware, this will make it easier for the defense to stop the run.

This is where (no pun intended) you will see more arc blocking concepts come in.

It will look like a normal R/O with the play action, however you'll have a FB come around and have a chance at a blindside block on a guy like Ware, giving the QB an extra second or 2, and with the safeties biting on the play action, it'll be that same wide open play over the middle to the WR or TE

“People getting up the field to pass rush is what it’s all about because of the type of quarterbacks — the Tom Bradys of the world, Drew Brees, that’s what you’ve got to stop. You’ve got to put pressure on the quarterback. Well, that’s just what you don’t want to do against [read-option quarterbacks]. You have to play on the line of scrimmage just like old option football.” - Nick Saban

 

[CowboyDiver]

Cancel the season, the Commanders have devised the perfect offense. It's unstoppable.

Meanwhile, the ruling says now that the QB is free game if he fakes. He will take more hits this year than he did last year. You can book that.

 

[Califan007]

SHF is doing the job of showing why "just hit/go after the QB" isn't some magic cure-all for defenses, and showing where the flaws are in that line of thinking.

Got this from ES, the poster goes into it more technically than I ever could lol...but I think he brings up valid points:

A good coordinator is trying to keep the numbers to each side of the offense in favor of the defense, or at least even.

Very rarely will you see a three man offensive surface (G, T, TE) without at least three defenders in the vacinity. I'm not sure why people think defenses are going to overload to anything. It's not a necessary adjustment to the read option. In fact, overloading just opens up the rest of the offense.

You can't change what you do defensively to "defeat" the read option. You play technically sound, disciplined football. Your force man must do his job and attempt to get to the mesh, targetting the threat to his gap. Your dive players must play the dive. Your spill players must do their 1/11th. What makes the read option so difficult to defend is the trouble with the reads involved. Linebackers see inside zone with Morris and they take their dive flow steps down hill. If the read player doesn't do his job, those linebackers are in terrible position to chase down the quarterback on the keeper.

Trying to "make a play" defensively is the biggest culprit. Everyone thinks making a play is forcing a turnover, or laying a big hit... That's not the case. You can make a play by forcing the hand of the offense without ever touching an offensive player.

But even if all of that goes right, you still have the playaction read. So now your secondary has decided to attack the run and now the offense can throw it. Again, it takes fundamental, patient football to "defeat" the read option. And even then, the offense is going to win sometimes, unless the defense is that much more physically talented.

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

Cancel the season, the Commanders have devised the perfect offense. It's unstoppable.

Meanwhile, the ruling says now that the QB is free game if he fakes. He will take more hits this year than he did last year. You can book that.

The rule is the same as last year. I have no idea why people think this is a new rule. Griffin was killed against the Bengals but the Commanders adjusted after that.

As for the R/O itself, it is a very easy scheme to stop with a few outside blitzes which set the edge properly and force the QB back inside.

The problem is all of the other options it opens up in the passing game. A disciplined D maintaining leverage will stop this, but it may give a QB all day to throw the ball

 

[Califan007]

Cancel the season, the Commanders have devised the perfect offense. It's unstoppable.

Meanwhile, the ruling says now that the QB is free game if he fakes. He will take more hits this year than he did last year. You can book that.

The ruling is no different than last year. And the "fake" being discussed isn't just disguising the handoff...it's having the QB act like he still has the ball. RG3 rarely did that last year. Once the ball was in Morris' hands, the fake ended.

 

[zrinkill]

Hilarious watching the skin fans squirm.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Seattle struggled terribly while Griffin was healthy. Once injured that changed everything.

Not sure what game you were watching.

And Robert was completeing passes out of the R/O formation the entire night. His problems were in traditional passing sets where Ryan flooded the zone trying to prevent another T-Giving destruction of his secondary from occuring again

Again, not sure what game you were watching.

It was obvious that Rob Ryan told the linebackers to not bite on the play fake because that was the Skins' bread-and-butter play last year. They would use a play fake, suck the linebackers in and RG3 would throw over the top of the LB's.

He's not a very good pocket passer unless he can get those LB's sucked in far enough and throw over the top with an easy throw. The Cowboys proved that in Week 17. The problem was that the Cowboys were basically on their 4th string ILB's, 5th string strong safety and 3rd string Nose Tackle and SDE. Morris is a legit running back and they couldn't tackle him. But, RG3 threw the ball poorly that entire game.







YR

 

[AmericasTeam31]

"Your force man must do his job and attempt to get to the mesh, targetting the threat to his gap. "

Don't you think that this is referring to the DE attacking the backfield and getting to the mesh point of the QB and RB?

Basically what the poster is describing is that you have to force the RB to take the ball by attacking the mesh point. Therefore playing to your numbers on the inside of the field. There is a reason that teams don't want the ball to get to the outside on them, and it's because they don't have any help out there numbers wise. My take on defending it will always revolve around attacking the MESH point, not the QB, and forcing the ball into the area of the field where you have the most help. And in all cases this is the line of scrimmage. Also, as Constant Reboot pointed out, it takes the biggest advantage of the read option away from the offense... deception. If the DE or OLB attack the mesh point every play it will force the ball back inside EVERY time. Therefore, as long as he is doing his job, the other 10 defenders will know where the ball is.

Would you rather play 11 vs 11 and be clueless as to who has the ball, or play 10 vs 10 and know where who has the ball? I'll take the latter every time.

 

[Califan007]

Hilarious watching the skin fans squirm.

Yes. We are squirming. Oh, the fear.

I swear, you guys must attend smack talk seminars or something lol..."If all else fails, just tell them they're afraid. Works like a charm."--followed by Cowboys fans feverishly taking notes...

 

[erod]

I think it is clear many people do not understand how the R/O works.

The QB is staring right at the unblocked player. If that player is coming at the QB every single time, the QB's read will be easy and his RB will be eating up yards.

Meanwhile the QB will be 7 yards behind the LOS with his hands in the air like he doesn't care

LOL, what's to understand? It's an offense for 10-year-olds and D-3 colleges. It's offense for idiots.

Teams need to simply and utterly pound quarterbacks into an early football grave. That will get rid of it, and bring back adult offenses for adult football.

 

[SkinsFan28]

I don't think it will necessarily be the demise of the read option. It's not like the read option QB is going to be taking blind sided hits. He practically stares down the guy that is allowed the free pass.

I think it will even up the playing field a bit but I don't see teams shying away from the read option.

Even if they were hit, they're most likely standing in the pocket when they are hit so they would differ from a QB with a crappy OL in what way? Nobody ever predicts shortened careers for QBs who get hit a ton in the pocket.

One thing specifically about the Skins. Our RT Polumbus is crappy in pocket pass protection. Seriously crappy. But he is good in run blocking/moving forward. The RO and roll outs are designed to cover up that deficiency. I guarantee if Griffin stood back in the pocket like most RO critics want him to, he would be scrambling more, and the scramble is where he is going off of instinct (ie cut back in to get extra yards, or stay in bounds one more step). If Griffin runs in a RO play, there are blockers in place to give him a lane, and he generally is following the plan not running on gut instincts.

If our RT didn't let pass rushers in like a sieve, we would do more pocket passing. It's not a strength, so our OC doesn't call it as often. How strange is that [/sarc]

 

[Califan007]

"Your force man must do his job and attempt to get to the mesh, targetting the threat to his gap. "

Don't you think that this is referring to the DE attacking the backfield and getting to the mesh point of the QB and RB?

Basically what the poster is describing is that you have to force the RB to take the ball by attacking the mesh point. Therefore playing to your numbers on the inside of the field.

There is a reason that teams don't want the ball to get to the outside on them, and it's because they don't have any help out there numbers wise. My take on defending it will always revolve around attacking the MESH point, not the QB, and forcing the ball into the area of the field where you have the most help. And in all cases this is the line of scrimmage. Also, as Constant Reboot pointed out, it takes the biggest advantage of the read option away from the offense... deception. If the DE or OLB attack the mesh point every play it will force the ball back inside EVERY time. Therefore, as long as he is doing his job, the other 10 defenders will know where the ball is.

Would you rather play 11 vs 11 and be clueless as to who has the ball, or play 10 vs 10 and know where who has the ball? I'll take the latter every time.

I interpreted it the same way you just did, to attack the mesh point, not the player/QB. And yeah, the other 10 players must be completely disciplined for it to work consistently.

 

[Califan007]

One thing specifically about the Skins. Our RT Polumbus is crappy in pocket pass protection. Seriously crappy. But he is good in run blocking/moving forward. The RO and roll outs are designed to cover up that deficiency. I guarantee if Griffin stood back in the pocket like most RO critics want him to, he would be scrambling more, and the scramble is where he is going off of instinct (ie cut back in to get extra yards, or stay in bounds one more step). If Griffin runs in a RO play, there are blockers in place to give him a lane, and he generally is following the plan not running on gut instincts.

If our RT didn't let pass rushers in like a sieve, we would do more pocket passing. It's not a strength, so our OC doesn't call it as often. How strange is that [/sarc]

This is soooo freakin' important and true. Glad you brought it up.

"Running" QBs are more likely to get injured on scrambles than on read option plays, and for all the reasons you just mentioned.

 

[Califan007]

LOL, what's to understand? It's an offense for 10-year-olds and D-3 colleges. It's offense for idiots.

Teams need to simply and utterly pound quarterbacks into an early football grave. That will get rid of it, and bring back adult offenses for adult football.

Here's hoping all DCs around the league feel the same way you do about the Skins' offense *thumbsup*...

 

[Future]

1) You gotta actually get there. That isn't a guarantee

2) Your team is going to go down quickly 21-3 because you are taking a defender out of the play to chase the QB for no reason. You aren't giving up 8 yards a carry, you are gonna give up 20 yards a pop

The guy hitting the QB will be out of the play anyways. The whole purpose of the read option is to draw a defender to the guy without the ball...