Read-option quarterbacks are fair game on fakes, NFL says

[Califan007]

Not sure what game you were watching.

The one where the Skins went up 14-0 in the 1st quarter and outgained the Seahawks 104 yards to -7 before Griffin was injured. That game.

I saw it. Hell, I can even send you a link to watch the game again lol. In fact, I remember CZ members here in the game day thread, after the Skins went up 14-0, saying "So, anyone think the Skins will beat the Falcons?"

Yeah, that game. That's the one.

 

[erod]

Here's the bottom line.

Harbaugh is concerned because the Packers have openly said they are going to go after Kaepernick on the read option. He somewhat called out the league office to put out a warning, and they didn't. The league said, on a run-option play, you can go after the quarterback like a running back. (I think the league wants it squashed, too.)

Meanwhile, defensive coordinators have had a full offseason to work on this high school offense. I'm sure they have it solved with enough talent to execute their plan. They have put an unspoken bounty on this play, and the quarterback will hopefully pay dearly, and often.

These quarterbacks are going to have short careers if they keep this up. They're going to take 5 times the hits of a typical quarterback. And if you don't have a backup that can do the same thing, you basically need two offenses.

It's time to make these quarterbacks suffer.

 

[SkinsFan28]

LOL, what's to understand? It's an offense for 10-year-olds and D-3 colleges. It's offense for idiots.

Teams need to simply and utterly pound quarterbacks into an early football grave. That will get rid of it, and bring back adult offenses for adult football.

Old school, that was probably true. But, and I use this as way of a non-Commander non-biased (i hope) example- late in last night's game, there was a punt where after the fair catch, a member of the kicking team who was running side by side with a member of the receiving team decided to take a shoulder to chest shot of the opposing player. It wasn't an overt kill shot, or even dirty, just after the play was over. And they through a flag for 15yds. In Old School, no way a flag is thrown. Now, once a player, any player, is out of the play action, you can't just go "utterly pound" or even give more than a simple push. It's the way the game is. It's not changing back to old school toughness anytime soon.

 

[jobberone]

Not at all. Do you not understand how fast these guys are?

Look at what the 49ers did to the Falcons. Or what they did to the Ravens in the 2nd half.

It was clear the free unblocked man was gunning for Kapernick. Gore had all sorts of room to run once he got the ball.

What the R/O does that DC's talk about all the time is make it a 11 on 11 game, vs a 11 on 10 game. The numbers for the D are thrown out of whack

So if you want your DE to just take himself out of the play every down, be my guest

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id...ching-nfl-coaches-know-how-defend-read-option

Notice the last picture in the article

The arc block is what is going to destroy this "defense" Matthews is gunning for the QB, that is what the scrape exchange technique is based on, the free man/DE/3-4 OLB being assigned the QB, while the inside LB rotates over the top to the outside.

To focus a bit more on your point I found clips from the ATL-SF game where the Falcons were clearly attacking Kapernick

You see what John Abraham is clearly doing and that is at the snap, once he saw the pistol formation, is heading straight for the QB

And you see the big hole left for Frank Gore. And Abraham is nowhere near Kapernick

A nice gain for Gore and Kap is sitting way behind the LOS with nobody near him

One more just to make the point clear

Again, DE attacks Kapernick

DE pays no attention to Gore, who has the ball, is nowhere near Kapernick, who doesn't have the ball, and its an easy TD with Kap chillin in the backfield.

That is what this strategy will yield. Lots of big plays for Alfred Morris and Frank Gore

Well, John is not playing it properly. You have to contain and you have to play your alley properly with good angles. I agree one of the big principles of the RO is to confuse the D and create areas where the O outnumbers the D. It relies on people not playing their assignments well and people not making tackles and not covering receivers esp over the middle.

There are ways to counteract the RO. There is the scrape exchange where you flip flop the read by having the DE take the RB and have someone else contain the QB usually the OLB. You must play your alley and /or your assignment well. You have to have someone who can come up and tackle the QB if he does get outside. And you need to play tight coverage to take away the pass option. Those guys can't over pursue, overrun containment (like John did...both), not fill your alley, or MISS tackles. You have to swarm to the ball while not doing those bad things and not overlooking receivers. Players have to take angles that take them to where the ball will be.

The D is fast too so I don't buy the O is just oh so fast. The D must be disciplined. Defenses can learn to stop the read run but the real danger is in stopping the pass option. Your CBs have to play tight. They just can't force the receiver into the middle of the field and funnel them to the LBs and safeties. Those guys plates are full already. And they have to not let their responsibilities for run support to allow receivers to get too much separation or slip free. Your safeties and other coverage guys cannot be caught looking into the backfield. They have got to make sure receivers aren't open and be prepared to take good angles to the ball carrier if they get past the LOS. That's a lot of pressure on the DBs and those dime/nickel/LBs in coverage.

If you stuff the run then you can defend the pass better...potentially. You're forcing the QB to look harder at the pass option. The RO is not nearly as gimmicky as the wildcat was and it will hang around longer. It may not die simply because defenses adjust too well to it. But I suspect it will die from attrition. It may not ever die off completely but I don't think in a few years we will see it get as many snaps. QBs who run the RO are going to go down too often for NFL owners to invest millions in these guys. Now if you have two or three of these guys on a team then you can plug and play but sooner or later kids are going to migrate to other positions with longer half lives. RG's agent has already expressed concern over his health.

 

[erod]

Old school, that was probably true. But, and I use this as way of a non-Commander non-biased (i hope) example- late in last night's game, there was a punt where after the fair catch, a member of the kicking team who was running side by side with a member of the receiving team decided to take a shoulder to chest shot of the opposing player. It wasn't an overt kill shot, or even dirty, just after the play was over. And they through a flag for 15yds. In Old School, no way a flag is thrown. Now, once a player, any player, is out of the play action, you can't just go "utterly pound" or even give more than a simple push. It's the way the game is. It's not changing back to old school toughness anytime soon.

On a read-option, you can. The league said it is not the responsibility for the defender to know if the quarterback kept the ball or not.

I assure you that DCs are telling their players to hit the QB early and often, ball or not, on these plays. That will largely take it out of the game. Sure, they'll use it in key situations late, but I suspect even guys like RG3 won't want to run these plays much longer. His doctor is already voicing his opposition to it.

It makes for a short career.

Michael Vick has had ONE season in his career that he didn't get hurt. One. And he wasn't running the read option.

 

[SkinsFan28]

Here's the bottom line.

Harbaugh is concerned because the Packers have openly said they are going to go after Kaepernick on the read option. He somewhat called out the league office to put out a warning, and they didn't. The league said, on a run-option play, you can go after the quarterback like a running back. (I think the league wants it squashed, too.)

Meanwhile, defensive coordinators have had a full offseason to work on this high school offense. I'm sure have it solved with enough talent to execute their plan. They have put an unspoken bounty on this play, and the quarterback will hopefully pay dearly, and often.

These quarterbacks are going to have short careers if they keep this up. They're going to take 5 times the hits of a typical quarterback. And if you don't have a backup that can do the same thing, you basically need two offenses.

It's time to make these quarterbacks suffer.

Interesting that Rodgers and Luck took a whole lot of hits. Hell long ago Ramsey in the Skins offense was nothing more than a tackling dummy for defenses, and that was without the RO too. If a defense knows about where a qb will be, they will tee off and get him, and that's true of the Skins this year with Polumbus. I would put a bet that at the end of the season, if you breakdown of all the hits Griffin takes, the most will be from pocket passing, then next most is from his scrambles. (In fairness to any would be bettors, the Washington Post did that for last year, and after the first 3 games that's exactly the way it broke out).

 

[zrinkill]

Yes. We are squirming. Oh, the fear..

Thats obvious ........ you are on a Dallas Cowboys board trying to convince everyone (but mostly yourselves) that this ruling will not affect your one legged QB at all.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

The one where the Skins went up 14-0 in the 1st quarter and outgained the Seahawks 104 yards to -7 before Griffin was injured. That game.

I saw it. Hell, I can even send you a link to watch the game again lol. In fact, I remember CZ members here in the game day thread, after the Skins went up 14-0, saying "So, anyone think the Skins will beat the Falcons?"

Yeah, that game. That's the one.

Yeah, they made one good drive to the Seahawks who could not manage to gain a yard. It's easy to look good on 1 drive when the other team can't move the ball at all.





YR

 

[SkinsFan28]

On a read-option, you can. The league said it is not the responsibility for the defender to know if the quarterback kept the ball or not.

I assure you that DCs are telling their players to hit the QB early and often, ball or not, on these plays. That will largely take it out of the game. Sure, they'll use it in key situations late, but I suspect even guys like RG3 won't want to run these plays much longer. His doctor is already voicing his opposition to it.

It makes for a short career.

Michael Vick has had ONE season in his career that he didn't get hurt. One. And he wasn't running the read option.

That's not what the league said, and it has been stated in this thread over and over. You may not like a qb throwing his hands up, but if he does, the defender can't say well it's not my responsibility. NOW, if Griffin or any qb throws his hands up but keeps the ball(not sure how) then that opens a whole new can of worms...

Vick kinda proves the point, though you won't acknowledge it. Griffin, like Vick, is at the most risk when he is scrambling. He is running instinctually and no blockers in place and neither of their instincts are to slide. But on a RO play, the QB has a designed run path, mostly out to the sideline, and a blocker (either a WR, TE or FB) to protect him, so his mindset is to get what's there and end the play safely.

The one thing I will agree with, is that this year will certainly demonstrate whether RO has a place in a playbook or not. I just think you can't write it off by the Pound the QB mercilessly philosophy.

 

[Califan007]

Yeah, they made one good drive to the Seahawks who could not manage to gain a yard. It's easy to look good on 1 drive when the other team can't move the ball at all.





YR

You can score 14 points on one drive? You can gain 104 yards on one drive?

Hmm...you learn something new everyday.

 

[Califan007]

Thats obvious ........ you are on a Dallas Cowboys board trying to convince everyone (but mostly yourselves) that this ruling will not affect your one legged QB at all.

Was that lesson two at the Smack Talk Seminar? lol

 

[jobberone]

Yes, as opposed to most times which are 11 on 10. It makes a big difference. Especially if the one player you're removing every play is Demarcus Ware.

You're not removing Ware every play. They don't play the RO or the pistol every play. They ran the ball 519 times and passed 442 times. 25% of the non option runs were out of the pistol formation. 82% of the option runs were out of the pistol. The Skins run a great offense and the Shannahan's are pretty good at running it. The pistol is just a part of it. So there is a lot more to defending the Skins than just the pistol with or without the RO. My guess is they will run it enough to make sure teams can defend it and get teams looking for the run to open up the passing game. Sounds like what most teams want to do. But you do have to play the pistol/option well.

 

[zrinkill]

Was that lesson two at the Smack Talk Seminar? lol

No ......lesson 2 was passive aggressively playing the victim in the Commander troll handbook.

 

[Califan007]

No ......lesson 2 was passive aggressively playing the victim in the Commander troll handbook.

You may need to look up "passive", "aggressive" and "victim" and then go back and edit your post

 

[Califan007]

Anyway lol....as much fun as this always is (been doing this with Cowboys fans since the mid-70s, only in person back then), I am taking leave of the interwebz like I did last season. Found that following the Skins was far more enjoyable when I experienced it much like I did before the age of message boards and internet experts galore ...If you didn't notice (and no reason for you to have done so), even last season when the Skins were shellacking the Cowboys by sweeping them and winning the NFC East, I never posted on here during the season. That'll most likely be me again this year, regardless of how things go (cue the applause and champagne corks popping all over CZ lol).

Good luck against the Giants (moiderize 'em!!) and hopefully there will be very few injuries for the Cowboys this year. Games are always better when both teams are close to full strength. And the season is always better when the Skins and 'Boys are battling for the division while the Giants and Eagles are battling for a higher draft slot.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

You're not removing Ware every play. They don't play the RO or the pistol every play.

Well of course. It's Cowboys fans who are acting like it's all they do and Griffin is going to get blasted on it every play.

I've always said that they could never run the option, just run the offense they always have, and Griffin would be outstanding. Think of Houston, who never runs it -- they'd be far better with Griffin than Schaub.

 

[NinePointOh]

Seattle struggled terribly while Griffin was healthy. Once injured that changed everything.

The Seahawks were ahead 24-14 before Cousins took a single snap.

 

[Denim Chicken]

I think the significance of this ruling in regards to RG3 is that, yes, he can throw his hands up on a fake and if he gets blatantly hit there will probably be a call. However, if he gives to the RB and throws up his hands while the defender is already committed to the hit there will not be one. It will be a judgement call by the refs, but hopefully anything close will go the way of a non-call.

 

[jobberone]

Well of course. It's Cowboys fans who are acting like it's all they do and Griffin is going to get blasted on it every play.

I've always said that they could never run the option, just run the offense they always have, and Griffin would be outstanding. Think of Houston, who never runs it -- they'd be far better with Griffin than Schaub.

agreed.

 

[NinePointOh]

"Running" QBs are more likely to get injured on scrambles than on read option plays, and for all the reasons you just mentioned.

Why is that supposed to be reassuring to a Commander fan? Why would you care where RG3 is on the field when he gets injured? The fact is that running/option QBs tend to get hit a lot, and whether those hits come on a scramble or a designed run, it's still dangerous. Especially when your QB already has a history of serious injuries.