Recent downturn in OLine performance should be our biggest concern

[gimmesix]

1. Conner Williams was the biggest culprit. Undersized, he gave up the most sacks even though he didn’t play 16 games. He shouldn’t have been thrown into the fire so soon.

Actually, Xavier Su'a-Filo gave up the most sacks (6) in eight starts. Williams gave up 4.5 in 10 starts. He also had four holds called, though, while Su'a-Filo had one. La'el Collins had 5 sacks and 4 holds, but that was in 16 games.

Needless to say, left guard was our main issue in pass protection last year, followed by right tackle. However, Collins' numbers really aren't that far off from other tackles. Lane Johnson, for instance, gave up four sacks last year in 15 games. (He did not have any holds called against him, though.) Washington's Morgan Moses only gave up two sacks, but had six holds called against him.

I think we sometimes expect all of our tackles to play like Tyron Smith, but Smith is not that typical so I'm not too bothered by Collins' numbers. However, there's no excuse for giving up 10.5 sacks combined at guard, and who knows how many pressures.

 

[Proof]

I disagree with the OP. I think the O-Line is looking up. That’s not to say all questions are answered, but that’s rarely the case before training camp in any season, even those that prove to be very good.

It appears Frederick will be back at or near full strength. That improves the center position and allows Looney to compete at LG with a bulked up Conner Williams and Su’a Filo, who proved to be a nice surprise last year. McGovern is pretty highly regarded and could fit into the picture as well. At least one of those should capably handle the position, with the others being great depth and insurance. Tyron Smith, while being a somewhat lesser player than his peak, is still an upper tier LT, and Fleming is good depth. And Collins, while clearly a lesser player than his All Pro cohorts along the O-Line, is not as bad as the OP makes him out to be. Sorry, but a team can’t have elite players at every position.

Yeah I’m bullish on the line this year for the reasons you stated. We’ve got guys returning, guys hopefully improving an infusion of new talent and depth. Plus I love Columbo

 

[Stash]

Actually, Xavier Su'a-Filo gave up the most sacks (6) in eight starts. Williams gave up 4.5 in 10 starts. He also had four holds called, though, while Su'a-Filo had one. La'el Collins had 5 sacks and 4 holds, but that was in 16 games.

Needless to say, left guard was our main issue in pass protection last year, followed by right tackle. However, Collins' numbers really aren't that far off from other tackles. Lane Johnson, for instance, gave up four sacks last year in 15 games. (He did not have any holds called against him, though.) Washington's Morgan Moses only gave up two sacks, but had six holds called against him.

I think we sometimes expect all of our tackles to play like Tyron Smith, but Smith is not that typical so I'm not too bothered by Collins' numbers. However, there's no excuse for giving up 10.5 sacks combined at guard, and who knows how many pressures.

Do you happen to have the holding callas against Tyron Smith last year? I seem to remember he got called for quite a few, some of which seemed very tickey-tack to me.

 

[Section446]

I have to think that having Frederick back will help, losing your Center is like losing your QB. Unfortunately, while that will help, it won't fix guys who are just playing out of position like Collins.

 

[gimmesix]

Do you happen to have the holding callas against Tyron Smith last year? I seem to remember he got called for quite a few, some of which seemed very tickey-tack to me.

I'm using this site: http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=24796

They have him with seven holding calls, so that's definitely not a good number. His 10 overall penalities were the most assessed against him since his second year. The 0 sacks, though, is a first.

One of the things I see in his numbers to remember concerning Connor Williams is that it's tough having to start as a rookie lineman. Smith gave up 9.5 sacks his first year (playing right tackle). Knowing this, I blame the front office for taking a rookie in the second round and just throwing him out there. It's cases like that where I think we outsmart ourselves instead of making sure we have a capable starter and making the unproven player actually have to beat him out. You can't just expect every player to come in NFL-ready.

 

[CouchCoach]

A valid concern until it gets real and we see the pass protection but there is another concern and it is the QB. How many times did you see Prescott register surprise that a D player was already on him? That's the reason for his ball insecurity in the pocket, the lack of pocket presence and that has to be learned.

Part of this is his height and lack of space between himself and the OL but get too far back, he's a target from Collins' side. His lack of awareness and response is what helped all of those sacks in ATL. When the rush is strong, the QB is 50% responsible for his own protection and throwing lanes. Prescott needs a little Romo in him and while he's a pretty good runner when he runs, that's more straight ahead in line running. And I don't know if a QB built like he is can have pocket moves.

This is a good, not great OL, and has been overvalued too many times because of 3/5 of it being pro bowlers. Can't have 5/5 and 3/5 is really special but 2/5 is still 40% of the OL and that RT spot is not consistent or solid.

The other issue is the TE part of this and TE blocking is a requirement of a 50% run team. Witten is a good, not great, blocker but the others are not really good.

Remains to be seen how Moore will differ from Linehan with his calls but the same rules will be in place. Greatest play called doesn't have much of a chance without the OL doing their job, it's still comes down to execution, not necessarily the play called.

However, I am optimistic because of the two Conners. Williams played too early, out of necessity, and needed a year of building up and technique training but he did get the last half of that on the job and it's still unclear where he will play but he could be a step up at RT and McGovern might be the ticket at LG and I am glad they stuck with that pick instead of taking the trade bait.

But the main reason I am optimistic about this OL is because the team finally realizes the importance of the foundation and part of the O struggles last season were because of the OL. Step 1 of problem solving is recognizing that there is a problem. It took them a while but they did arrive there.

 

[Stash]

I'm using this site: http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/playerstats.asp?id=24796

They have him with seven holding calls, so that's definitely not a good number. His 10 overall penalities were the most assessed against him since his second year. The 0 sacks, though, is a first.

Yeah, I remembered that they were high. And I also remember questioning the validity of several and feeling that referees were throwing flags on him that they didn't otherwise, almost as if he were being held to a higher standard.

One of the things I see in his numbers to remember concerning Connor Williams is that it's tough having to start as a rookie lineman. Smith gave up 9.5 sacks his first year (playing right tackle). Knowing this, I blame the front office for taking a rookie in the second round and just throwing him out there. It's cases like that where I think we outsmart ourselves instead of making sure we have a capable starter and making the unproven player actually have to beat him out. You can't just expect every player to come in NFL-ready.

You're talking to a guy who was a big Jonathan Cooper supporter. I thought he brought a lot to the line when he replaced the useless Chaz Green, and I wish that the Cowboys made a better effort to keep him in that role. But, as has been the story of Cooper's career, injuries proved to be his undoing yet again. When Green was finally and rightfully jettisoned, with Cooper already having departed, options A & B at left guard were gone and then it was essentially left to a rookie to fill that spot with no other real options. And while I don't rule out playing rookies, I don't like being forced to play them.

 

[glimmerman]

If these players are healthy then they will be the best in the NFL. I expect a big step up from Williams this year. And our new pick helps provide depth. We are deeper this year and it should help.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Let’s try a thread that isn’t Dak-focused.

By every reasonable statistic, this offensive line has been in decline since 2017. We’ve blamed Dak for holding the ball too long, Linehan for his lack of creativity, dearth of talent at WR, but the stats show that this comes back to the offensive line.

From 2014 to 2016 this was a dominant force up front. Even in 2015, the year ruined by Romo’s two brutal collarbone injuries, the team still ran for 4.63 yards per carry. That was before Zeke.

In 2016, Bryant went down injured and Dak and Zeke still killed it. They went 13-3.

2017 was OK until Tyron Smith got hurt and the dreaded Chaz Green experiment. And that’s when things have started to come undone.

There were 56 sacks given up in 2018, and even if you give a lot of them to Dak (unfair, but whatever), you can’t get past the poor play on the line.

1. Conner Williams was the biggest culprit. Undersized, he gave up the most sacks even though he didn’t play 16 games. He shouldn’t have been thrown into the fire so soon.

2. Collins gets a free pass here but his play was also really poor. I have to imagine that this is his last year here.

3. Obviously we were missing Fredbeard. Looney is the only starter who didn’t give up any sacks (Martin only gave up 2), but we miss Fredbeard’s adjustments and athleticism.

4. Tyron Smith was playing hurt again. He’s not getting any younger.

So to me, the team’s success in 2019 comes down to the offensive line. When they play well, this team wins a lot of games. When they don’t... well, you know.

And the Dallas Cowboys have more salary cap money invested in OL then any other team in the league.

In 2019..

- Frederick is back, but is he his old self
- Martin is a stud, no worry there.
- Collins is a worry, and he’s likely gone after this year. Can he be replaced a year early
- Will T.Smith stay injury free?
- Will Conner Williams’ bulk make him a better player?
- How willing Conner McGovern contribute?

Too many questions... this is my biggest worry going into training camp.

first we went from being an all time best OL in 2016 to now an average OL. so we are spoiled. if we need an all time OL to succeed, one it will cost money, second, then we should figure out why we can't do with an average or top 10 OL since all these other teams seem to be doing it.....now some of the decline is due to injuries. although some of the replacements albeit limited in some areas, . also of the 56 sacks, more than 20 can be attributed to the QB play. you can't dismiss that. in fact about 1o of those was QB not throwing the ball away and running out of bounce behind LOS. it all goes hand in hand.

 

[Hennessy_King]

Most expensive O line in the league needs to play better than below average. Last year was a disgrace to how much that group is getting paid. And I don't wanna hear about injuries every team has them and the eagles won a super bowl without their starting qb, mlb, and LT.

 

[Stash]

Most expensive O line in the league needs to play better than below average. Last year was a disgrace to how much that group is getting paid. And I don't wanna hear about injuries every team has them and the eagles won a super bowl without their starting qb, mlb, and LT.

You're right, injuries aren't an excuse for everything.

 

[gimmesix]

Yeah, I remembered that they were high. And I also remember questioning the validity of several and feeling that referees were throwing flags on him that they didn't otherwise, almost as if he were being held to a higher standard.

There was one call in particular on Smith where he had his hands on the outside of the chest of the pass rusher and just pancaked him that I thought was an egregious bad call. Smith did everything that linemen are taught to do and they called a hold simply because he manhandled his man. Yet, they allow players to get away with the hug technique where linemen clearly wrap around and hold defenders.

 

[Stash]

There was one call in particular on Smith where he had his hands on the outside of the chest of the pass rusher and just pancaked him that I thought was an egregious bad call. Smith did everything that linemen are taught to do and they called a hold simply because he manhandled his man. Yet, they allow players to get away with the hug technique where linemen clearly wrap around and hold defenders.

It's amazing how inconsistent referees are in doing their jobs. They'll call fouls on nothing and then miss mugging like David Irving vs Green Bay with a playoff game on the line. And then miss the most blatant PI call in history and screw up their own Super Bowl. Referees suck at their jobs.

 

[gimmesix]

It's amazing how inconsistent referees are in doing their jobs. They'll call fouls on nothing and then miss mugging like David Irving vs Green Bay with a playoff game on the line. And then miss the most blatant PI call in history and screw up their own Super Bowl. Referees suck at their jobs.

I don't want to bust on them too much because I'd probably suck at it too. There's a lot to regulate, which is why I lean toward either calling something you can see every time or not calling it at all. The standard for holding used to be if it was outside the shoulder pads, then it was a hold; if it was inside the shoulder pads it wasn't. The reason for that is that it's much easier to see holds outside the shoulder pads. Several of the calls against Smith were inside the shoulder pads. The hug technique is clearly outside the shoulder pads.

The same with the arm around the neck, either call it every time as a hold or don't call it at all. PI seems to vary from game to game depending on how much contact that official is willing to allow. Some allow hands to be pulled down, receivers to be shoved while trying to make the catch, etc., while others throw a flag for breathing on the receiver. Frankly, I like the rule that PI calls or non-calls can now be challenged because they are such a judgment call. However, because they are a judgment call, it will be interesting to see how many get overturned either way.

 

[CCBoy]

I do like that Marc Colombo will be teaching them 'ol school toughness and a physical style of play.

 

[OmerV]

Yeah I’m bullish on the line this year for the reasons you stated. We’ve got guys returning, guys hopefully improving an infusion of new talent and depth. Plus I love Columbo

Colombo is a good point - the O-Line seemed to improve last year when Alexander was released and Colombo took over.

 

[gimmesix]

I do like that Marc Colombo will be teaching them 'ol school toughness and a physical style of play.

This actually brings up a good point about the line. Paul Alexander brought in a different technique that they had to learn. That didn't end well so obviously the new teachings affected the line. However, we still had plenty of bad games, including giving up a high of seven sacks against New Orleans, after Colombo took over.

 

[CCBoy]

This actually brings up a good point about the line. Paul Alexander brought in a different technique that they had to learn. That didn't end well so obviously the new teachings affected the line. However, we still had plenty of bad games, including giving up a high of seven sacks against New Orleans, after Colombo took over.

A mid season change explains the sluggishness in change. Not only did blocking scheme change, but their top receiver changed as well...

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Most expensive O line in the league needs to play better than below average. Last year was a disgrace to how much that group is getting paid. And I don't wanna hear about injuries every team has them and the eagles won a super bowl without their starting qb, mlb, and LT.

We need to spend less resources on linemen. Far too much money going there for the results.

 

[starfan1]

Dak is working Miracles playing behind 4 no 1 picks (Collins would have gone in the 1st) and a 2nd round pick.
Jerry you need to invest MORE CAP dollars on offline buddy!!! lol
I wonder how he work his miracles behind such a cheap and low talent offline jeez....who doesn't give him at least 10 seconds to make up his mind where to throw his overthrown check-down? Jeez ......And don't get me started on the non-talented Running back we have back there....its a Miracle I tell you!!!! lol

P.S. Another its not Dak's fault thread......

first we went from being an all time best OL in 2016 to now an average OL. so we are spoiled. if we need an all time OL to succeed, one it will cost money, second, then we should figure out why we can't do with an average or top 10 OL since all these other teams seem to be doing it.....now some of the decline is due to injuries. although some of the replacements albeit limited in some areas, . also of the 56 sacks, more than 20 can be attributed to the QB play. you can't dismiss that. in fact about 1o of those was QB not throwing the ball away and running out of bounce behind LOS. it all goes hand in hand.

Im really surprised to see Daks 2 biggest supporters blaming it on the QB. insert sarcasm emoji here. Dak has a role in it for sure its probably not as bad as you 2 tend to make it. Probably not as little as some make it. Truth is probably somewhere in the middle.