Reciprocity is foreign term in NFL - as Ellis is finding out

[superpunk]

Cmon Jarv - A Commanders signing? Seriously? That was the stock contract they gave everyone, and it's not worth 30 mil.

In any case, by all accounts Ellis is not asking for MORE money - he is asking that it be guaranteed him. Just as TO did. How did you react to that?

That's not how things operate in the NFL. It might suck, but bending for Greg means bending for TO, and anyone else. And it leads to a situation like the NBA, where Shawn Kemp and Vin Baker sign monster guaranteed deals, gain 100 pounds, and eat up a team's cap, because the team is handicapped. Not good bizness.

Ellis ploy = TO. We just haven't gotten to the sit out of mandatory camps yet.

I've got a feeling it's coming.

 

[VoR]

I found his sly attempt at slipping a racial key and hint to slavery into the article despicable.

At face value, looks like a kind-hearted article intended to educate about the plight of all NFL players, but all it was is a glorified flag-waving session for a player he obviously likes personally in Greg Ellis. Ellis is the one of the least oppressed players on the roster. All of his oppression is self-imposed.

Yep, making millions of dollars playing a game being compared to slavery.....:laugh1:

 

[Jarv]

Cmon Jarv - A Commanders signing? Seriously? That was the stock contract they gave everyone, and it's not worth 30 mil.

In any case, by all accounts Ellis is not asking for MORE money - he is asking that it be guaranteed him. Just as TO did. How did you react to that?

That's not how things operate in the NFL. It might suck, but bending for Greg means bending for TO, and anyone else. And it leads to a situation like the NBA, where Shawn Kemp and Vin Baker sign monster guaranteed deals, gain 100 pounds, and eat up a team's cap, because the team is handicapped. Not good bizness.

Ellis ploy = TO. We just haven't gotten to the sit out of mandatory camps yet.

I've got a feeling it's coming.

For Andre, 9 million (bonus) plus this years salary is definatly guaranteed. For Andre in 1 year he will get almost what Greg will be paid the next 3 years on his contract.

Greg said he would not hold out, I take him at his word.

Greg has nearly doubled this guys (Carters) output in the last 3 years. He's statistally done better than Kearse, Holliday and Winstrom...all of who have fatter contracts.

Just trying to show what crazy money is being thrown around out there...Greg could have made more money when he resigned with us, do you agree with that ?

He showed loyalty to us and signed with us for less. When he did I was very happy, what a team guy. Guess he shoulda split on us then and gone for the money instead of the loyalty.

 

[Alexander]

But...while we're wondering...

What did you think of Terrell Owens contractual demands in Philly last year, Jarv?

I'd be interested to hear the answer as well.

 

[Alexander]

He showed loyalty to us and signed with us for less. When he did I was very happy, what a team guy. Guess he shoulda split on us then and gone for the money instead of the loyalty.

Do we know if he indeed gave us a hometown discount?

If so, why hasn't he said "Look, I signed for less than I could have got elsewhere when I did that deal because I wanted to help the team when it was in a cap pinch and I got reassurances I would be taken care of when the time came." He hasn't said it, so I would assume it probably isn't the case. And if it was the case and he has avoided saying it, that certainly would change my perception of this whole situation.

 

[burmafrd]

Just because Danny Boy is stupid about money does not mean we need to be.
Ellis is being paid OK money for his production. Not great, not bad.

 

[Alexander]

Just because Danny Boy is stupid about money does not mean we need to be.
Ellis is being paid OK money for his production. Not great, not bad.

I certainly wouldn't use the Commanders' play money to try to prove a point.

 

[Zimmy Lives]

For Andre, 9 million (bonus) plus this years salary is definatly guaranteed. For Andre in 1 year he will get almost what Greg will be paid the next 3 years on his contract.

Greg said he would not hold out, I take him at his word.

Greg has nearly doubled this guys (Carters) output in the last 3 years. He's statistally done better than Kearse, Holliday and Winstrom...all of who have fatter contracts.

Just trying to show what crazy money is being thrown around out there...Greg could have made more money when he resigned with us, do you agree with that ?

He showed loyalty to us and signed with us for less. When he did I was very happy, what a team guy. Guess he shoulda split on us then and gone for the money instead of the loyalty.

Not that I disagree with you Jarv but I'd be curious to see Carter's QB pressures as well as performance evaluation in crucial situations before I come to the conclusion that Ellis is a better player.

Also, I think most here would agree that Kearse gives OCs greater concern than Ellis. He may not have as many sack as Ellis over a certain period but you can make the same comparison between Charles Haley and Tony Tolbert -- Tolbert had more sacks within a three-year period (at the heigth of Cowboys success) than Haley.

 

[superpunk]

Just trying to show what crazy money is being thrown around out there...Greg could have made more money when he resigned with us, do you agree with that ?

I dunno. That's speculation that noone can speak with authority on.

I will say this.

Before that contract extension, Greg had registered 7.5 sacks twice, and 6 once, along with two FULL seasons where he registered only 3 sacks.

I'm not sure the door was being beaten down for his services.

 

[DLCassidy]

http://fantasybaseball.usatoday.com/content/player.asp?sport=NFL&id=436

Andre Carter 13.5 sacks over the last 3 years....

Greg 25 sacks over the last 3 years....

Mar. 13, 2006 - 6:14 p.m. ET
Commanders and DE Andre Carter have agreed on a six-year, $30 million contract, including a $9 million signing bonus.

Any player under contract for a while could pull out a recent signing and play the same game (especially if it's a Commanders signing:laugh1: ), so what? Are you admitting at least that this is simply an attempted money grab? Because it is. But you didn't answer any of my other questions comparing Glenn's behavior and situation to Ellis'. Maybe because you can't.

 

[Stash]

My favorite part was where he recommended that the NFL guarantee contracts like MLB and the NBA do.

How's that workin' out for them, huh?

The inmates run the asylum in the NBA!

Ask the Knicks how they like the arrangement?!?!?

The NFL has their system because they're smarter than the other leagues.

When a salary is guaranteed, drive and work ethic go out the window.

Sadly, it's human nature to grow complacent when salary is not dependent on productivity.

 

[DLCassidy]

Greg could have made more money when he resigned with us, do you agree with that ?

He showed loyalty to us and signed with us for less. When he did I was very happy, what a team guy. Guess he shoulda split on us then and gone for the money instead of the loyalty.

So he gave us the hometown discount then but he's now looking to grab all he can? Is that about it? Even assuming he did give us a discount and I personally think he got full market value then, if he's looking to reneg now on the deal he signed, why pray tell should we give him any credit for doing so in the 1st place?

 

[Alexander]

Not that I disagree with you Jarv but I'd be curious to see Carter's QB pressures as well as performance evaluation in crucial situations before I come to the conclusion that Ellis is a better player.

It is ridiculous to even assume that Andre Carter is a better player than Greg Ellis. Unless you are a Commanders fan, of course.

 

[Jarv]

Quote:
Originally Posted by superpunk
But...while we're wondering...

What did you think of Terrell Owens contractual demands in Philly last year, Jarv?

I'd be interested to hear the answer as well.

Fair enough question and I agree. When you sign a contract you should be ready to fullfill it to the end.

There are differences tho...IMHO. Greg hasn't slammed any teamates...told coach's not to speak with him unless he speaks to them 1st, had fights in a lockerooom. TO was also making tons of more money than Greg in the 1st place.

Greg has said he will not hold out and would like to play more or be traded. He has also said that if they want to experiment with him and it doesn't work out he is the loser.

In Philly TO wasn't told after he signed that they were changing offensive schemes and he will be a role player and not a starter anymore. He was just jealous of MacFlab and wanted more than 50 million.

TO didn't really have much of a choice when he signed with Philly. His agent screwed up the process to make him a FA...he was already a cancer in San Fran...Then somehow nixed a trade in Baltimore.

Greg gave us a discount, now its biting him in the face. he didn't have to, but he was loyal to us. In retrospect he could be making a lot more (ala Carter signing) as a 4-3 guy somewhere else. Please keep in mind we changed his job description, not the other way around. Coakley, Glover...others that didn't fit the 3-4 we let go. Greg is just saying since we changed his job description, not him but the Cowboys...now he is not a good fit so we are experimenting with him. If the experiment fails he lose...He is saying if we want to experiment with him instead of releasing him or trading him, then give him a guarentee so if the experiement (something he did not sign up for) fails, he won't be the only losing party.

Now do I agree with Greg 100%...No !

Here is what I don't agree with.

1) I don't think the expiremt wil fail...lol.

2) Even if it does (the experiment) and we release him next year, he'll still get a big payday somewhere else.

3) I don't think we'll release him before the end of his contact anyway, because he's actuall got a cheap contract...So he really doesn't need a gurauntee from us.

 

[superpunk]

There are differences tho...IMHO. Greg hasn't slammed any teamates...told coach's not to speak with him unless he speaks to them 1st, had fights in a lockerooom.

There are always differences. IMO, the basic premise is the same. The original contract doesn't look so good anymore, and they want the rest guaranteed, so they have more leverage.

TO was also making tons of more money than Greg in the 1st place.

He's also arguably the best player at a premier position. Greg is legitimately top 25 in his.

Greg gave us a discount, now its biting him in the face. he didn't have to, but he was loyal to us. In retrospect he could be making a lot more (ala Carter signing) as a 4-3 guy somewhere else.

This is opinion.

Carter's current salary is based on his years as a 4-3 DE, since that is what the team he went to employs. They ignored his play as a OLB. Of course - they're idiots.

But still, any 4-3 team looking at Greg in the future is not going to judge him on the FEW plays he trots out at OLB this year.

Please keep in mind we changed his job description, not the other way around.

How is this true? He was a nickel (4 man front) pass rusher last year. He will be this year.

This shift has been made to seem alot more drastic than it really is.

1) I think the expiremt wil fail...lol.

2) Even if it does (the experiment) and we release him next year, he'll still get a big payday somewhere else.

3) I don't think we'll release him before the end of his contact anyway, because he's actuall got a cheap contract...So he really doesn't need a gurauntee from us.

I agree with all that, especially the first one - which is why his whiny, defeatist attitude annoys me so much. In essence, he questions himself, his own ability, but wants the team to guarantee him money for a job he's not sure he can do. Why should they have that confidence when he doesn't? Because he's nice? Because of an alleged "hometown discount"?

 

[Jarv]

I dunno. That's speculation that noone can speak with authority on.

I will say this.

Before that contract extension, Greg had registered 7.5 sacks twice, and 6 once, along with two FULL seasons where he registered only 3 sacks.

I'm not sure the door was being beaten down for his services.

7.5x2 = 15 plus 6= 21

The 3 sacks years were surrounded by rookie and injury years...Think he also had 2 td's during that span with an INT and fumble return...

21 sacks in 3 years compared to Carters 13.5

Yes, I agree the Skins are idiots and I'll also contracts are richer now than they were then. But it was widely reported around Dallas at the time that we got the hometown discount.

 

[Alexander]

There are differences tho...IMHO. Greg hasn't slammed any teamates...told coach's not to speak with him unless he speaks to them 1st, had fights in a lockerooom. TO was also making tons of more money than Greg in the 1st place.

Well, you are distinguishing his behavior, not the act of asking for a commitment itself. Nobody would say Owens behaved appropriately, but in the grand scheme of things, both players were after the same thing. And you proved a point, people excuse Ellis because of the halo over his head and condemn Owens because of the devil horns protruding from his head.

If someone punches you in the face and meant to do it, does it matter if they were smiling when they did it?

Greg has said he will not hold out and would like to play more or be traded. He has also said that if they want to experiment with him and it doesn't work out he is the loser.

Well, my response to that is what do we have now? He can simply take it, but do we get his best play? He has already stated it will cost us to buy his best effort, so the answer is probably no.

Greg gave us a discount, now its biting him in the face. he didn't have to, but he was loyal to us. In retrospect he could be making a lot more (ala Carter signing) as a 4-3 guy somewhere else.

Where is the proof of this? Has he even stated that explicitly or are you supposing he did because that fits his profile?

He is saying if we want to experiment with him instead of releasing him or trading him, then give him a guarentee so if the experiement (something he did not sign up for) fails, he won't be the only losing party.

And the point remains, contracts aren't guaranteed anywhere. Players are asked to do different things all the time. Lousaka Polite has to learn how to be a tailback now, in addition to become an F-Back. Can he demand a commitment because he is taking a risk with his career? No. And why is he any different from Ellis? Because he has been "loyal"? Did he work for free all these years? Did he sign a contract well below his worth? Absolutely not.

There is a merit factor that people keep giving Ellis and that isn't something that you can get away with when trying to maintain morale and negotiate contracts on a football team.

1) I think the expiremt wil fail...lol.

You sound just like him. He thought he would flop as a 3-4 end and he didn't.

2) Even if it does (the experiment) and we release him next year, he'll still get a big payday somewhere else.

So what's he complaining about? A year is going to make a big difference? I doubt it. If it does and teams forget about him, then he's a worse player than we all thought.

 

[Doomsday101]

One stat that does not show up but Ellis get a lot of them are batted down passes. It seems every time a pass gets tipped of batted down it is Ellis on the other end.

 

[superpunk]

Now THAT is true, Dooms. Greg always does register a good amount of PDs.

 

[Alexander]

One stat that does not show up but Ellis get a lot of them are batted down passes. It seems every time a pass gets tipped of batted down it is Ellis on the other end.

So what is your point here? He cannot get to the passer and tackle him ten times a year, but he can defend a pass?