Reciprocity is foreign term in NFL - as Ellis is finding out

[Doomsday101]

So what is your point here? He cannot get to the passer and tackle him ten times a year, but he can defend a pass?

They were talking stats I just mentioned one stat that does not show up. What is your problem?

 

[superpunk]

So what is your point here? He cannot get to the passer and tackle him ten times a year, but he can defend a pass?

That is part of a Dlineman's job, is it not?

Get there - but if you can't get there, get your hands up. I think that is a legitimate part of a DE's game, not something to scoff at. It requires good instincts, and Greg is quite good at it.

 

[Jarv]

Any player under contract for a while could pull out a recent signing and play the same game (especially if it's a Commanders signing:laugh1: ), so what? Are you admitting at least that this is simply an attempted money grab? Because it is. But you didn't answer any of my other questions comparing Glenn's behavior and situation to Ellis'. Maybe because you can't.

Sorry, looks like I'm agianst most here on this thread...Hard to keep up.

Okay, the Glenn asked for a raise, Ellis asked for guarentee salary. I personally think its foolish of Greg, if he were to get cut (which seems to be his fear) with the contract escalations we've seen this year...and probably next year too, he'll probably end up making more somewhere (with a 4-3 scheme) anyhow.

Both players said they would not hold out, but made their wants and needs public. That sounds the same to me.

Both players said they would not hold out. Greg has skipped non manditory workouts and practice sesssion, so he has not held out...So that seems the same.

The Cowboys actually gave in to Glenn's (is 1 or 2 n's...I get the two confused?) request, but not Greg's.

So those are the differences that I see.

Like to hear your thoughts on the differences ?

 

[Alexander]

They were talking stats I just mentioned one stat that does not show up. What is your problem?

Trying to understand the relevance of that statistic and how it impacts this whole issue, that's all.

 

[Alexander]

That is part of a Dlineman's job, is it not?

Get there - but if you can't get there, get your hands up. I think that is a legitimate part of a DE's game, not something to scoff at. It requires good instincts, and Greg is quite good at it.

Of course it's part of his job, but I don't know of many teams that would consider that a great reason to sign a player. It's part of his job, just like tackling. But that's far from what I believe anyone would consider a reason to rank the player higher. He does that well, but he falls short on other regards and those criteria are considered more important. Sacks are overrated, but I think they are used more to judge production.

 

[Doomsday101]

Trying to understand the relevance of that statistic and how it impacts this whole issue, that's all.

You don't understand the importance of a guy getting his hands up and batting down ball that can lead to ints or at least an imcompleted pass? Some guys have a knack for it, Ed Jones clearly had a knack for it and it is an important aspect of the game for D-Lineman. I was just responding to some stats that were being discussed.

 

[Jarv]

Quote:
1) I think the expiremt wil fail...lol.

You sound just like him. He thought he would flop as a 3-4 end and he didn't.

Sorry, that was a typo and I edited that part. I actually think it will work.

Now folks, I've given my arguments. Thanks for all of your replies.

I have to say, although we disagree on some items here its nice to have a thread where we disagreed, but no one started any name calling or bashing people intelligence.

Jarv out...on this topic for now.

 

[superpunk]

Of course it's part of his job, but I don't know of many teams that would consider that a great reason to sign a player. It's part of his job, just like tackling. But that's far from what I believe anyone would consider a reason to rank the player higher. He does that well, but he falls short on other regards and those criteria are considered more important. Sacks are overrated, but I think they are used more to judge production.

True. But looking at the whole picture, that is a legitimate facet of Ellis' game - something he does better than almost any DE in the league, that I can find. If you're trying to establish his total value, I think you have to take that into account. I still think his salary is on par with his production, and don't buy the hometown discount thing, but PDs are a factor for a defender, no matter where he plays.

 

[Alexander]

You don't understand the importance of a guy getting his hands up and batting down ball that can lead to ints or at least an imcompleted pass? Some guys have a knack for it, Ed Jones clearly had a knack for it and it is an important aspect of the game for D-Lineman. I was just responding to some stats that were being discussed.

It is part of his job. Take Terrell Owens. When evaluating his worth, how often are his yards after the catch considered? Or do you look at TDs, receptions and raw yardage? The big picture is what most people look at. And I am sure that applies to talent evaluators in the league when they are looking to invest millions on someone. Or give them "commitments".

 

[Phoenix-Talon]

I found his sly attempt at slipping a racial key and hint to slavery into the article despicable.

Is that why you said ..."check the author ...that's all you need to know?"

Please explain that comment ...just curious.

 

[Alexander]

True. But looking at the whole picture, that is a legitimate facet of Ellis' game - something he does better than almost any DE in the league, that I can find. If you're trying to establish his total value, I think you have to take that into account. I still think his salary is on par with his production, and don't buy the hometown discount thing, but PDs are a factor for a defender, no matter where he plays.

Sure you do. I think he plays the run extremely well, and he is excellent at diagnosing a play and doesn't get fooled by play action. But that is undervalued. That's just the nature of the business as far as DEs are concerned.

 

[Alexander]

Is that why you said ..."check the author ...that's all you need to know?"

Please explain that comment ...just curious.

Blackistone doesn't write much about football (I am told his true forte is basketball) and when he does it's usually an agenda-driven hack job against the organization about some player he happens to like (he was a big supporter of Quincy Carter years ago and regularly blasted the team on his behalf). And he does play the race angle often and rarely misses a chance to drop it in there, even in a case like this, where it is completely laughable. He, like Galloway and others, resents the current regime and never hesistates when the opportunity presents itself to take a shot.

 

[Mash]

"He doesn't want a new contract. He doesn't want more money. He just wants a little of what he signed on for."

Asking for guaranteed money is the same as asking for more money especially when the money you are asking for is not this years salary but what the contract states in later years.

Most players and agents....know....they never see that money.

Ellis is asking for money he will never see.....so....he is asking for more money....simple.

 

[Doomsday101]

It is part of his job. Take Terrell Owens. When evaluating his worth, how often are his yards after the catch considered? Or do you look at TDs, receptions and raw yardage? The big picture is what most people look at. And I am sure that applies to talent evaluators in the league when they are looking to invest millions on someone. Or give them "commitments".

Yes it is part of the job and he tends to get a lot more than most DE in the NFL. In the Big Picture Ellis is a good DE I'm not saying he is the best and what he is getting in Dallas right now is on par with his talent level.

 

[Alexander]

Yes it is part of the job and he tends to get a lot more than most DE in the NFL. In the Big Picture Ellis is a good DE I'm not saying he is the best and what he is getting in Dallas right now is on par with his talent level.

Agreed on all points.

 

[Phoenix-Talon]

Blackistone doesn't write much about football (I am told his true forte is basketball) and when he does it's usually an agenda-driven hack job against the organization about some player he happens to like (he was a big supporter of Quincy Carter years ago and regularly blasted the team on his behalf). And he does play the race angle often and rarely misses a chance to drop it in there, even in a case like this, where it is completely laughable. He, like Galloway and others, resents the current regime and never hesistates when the opportunity presents itself to take a shot.

Thanks.

 

[jazzcat22]

only in the NHL.

The ken norton thing is so frustrating too. its not like he was just some schmoe

I hated seeing Kenny leave.
The way I remember the Ken Norton deal was he was asking too much for a FA and SF was willing to give it to him. I don't think there was much negotiations going on. He took the money and ran.

As for Greg Ellis, most the public seems to be on his side. and I can see that. Now I know this comparison isn't even close. Because it's a player JJ drafted (over Moss) which Ellis lives up to very well. So everyone gives him somewhat of a pass and he deserves it. He's a model player and citizen.
However, if this was TO..and he signs an extension, plays for us for 5 years without incedence (don't bring age into this, it's theoretical) how would everyone react...it would be.... SEE WE TOLD YOU, HE'S A BUM.

 

[Doomsday101]

I hated seeing Kenny leave.
The way I remember the Ken Norton deal was he was asking too much for a FA and SF was willing to give it to him. I don't think there was much negotiations going on. He took the money and ran.

As for Greg Ellis, most the public seems to be on his side. and I can see that. Now I know this comparison isn't even close. Because it's a player JJ drafted (over Moss) which Ellis lives up to very well. So everyone gives him somewhat of a pass and he deserves it. He's a model player and citizen.
However, if this was TO..and he signs an extension, plays for us for 5 years without incedence (don't bring age into this, it's theoretical) how would everyone react...it would be.... SEE WE TOLD YOU, HE'S A BUM.

If TO can make it 5 years with no real issue I would consider that a great turn around. However if he were to play for 5 more years and then the team wanted to make him a RB what do you think his reaction would be?

 

[Alexander]

I hated seeing Kenny leave.
The way I remember the Ken Norton deal was he was asking too much for a FA and SF was willing to give it to him. I don't think there was much negotiations going on. He took the money and ran.

I think Blackistone is embellishing here as well. Norton was working off his rookie contract ($575,000) and got a huge contract from San Francisco. And it wasn't like Norton was our only free agent that year. We got killed and picked apart in free agency. It is completely false to assume we first had the room to sign him in the first year of the cap and second, we had a running policy of not paying linebackers.

Just another instance of this writer making up colorful stories because it is more inflammatory and plays to the angle he is attempting to push.

 

[Alexander]

If TO can make it 5 years with no real issue I would consider that a great turn around. However if he were to play for 5 more years and then the team wanted to make him a RB what do you think his reaction would be?

Ellis would be a nickel pass rusher and occasional standup linebacker. I swear, some of you believe he would be in there every down, standing up and in pass coverage on a consistent basis. How often did you see John Abraham or McGinest as a true linebacker?

How can you jump to conclusions when you haven't seen the role yet and ignore the cases where it actually has been done?