Red Exploitation

[Doomsday101]

That whole drive we ate up yardage on the run. Then we could not punch it in. I don't really grasp how that became bad play calling as opposed to bad execution or good defense.

That is the problem I have with the bad play calling angle, it completely discredits the defense you are playing.

I agree. In short yardage as they say it is mano a mano with a slight edge going to the offense since as I said they know the snap count the defense has to react to the snap.

 

[CF74]

Aha, finally getting to the root of the issue. We haven't had success in short yardage despite having a bruiser for a RB.

Not play calling at fault then is it.

Over playing an injured back is an entire different subject but yeah it does fall under coaching error which points to not giving your team an edge. We've also had a sequence of pass attempts stall out many times as well.
I still see this problem as a combination of execution, play calling, and coaching.

When the playing field is relatively even, coaching and play calling will either give you an edge or it will give the other team the edge.

With your permission please allow me to ask you some questions now.

Do you agree with that last statement in bold?
What is the identity of this offense?
What specific sets of plays do we run over and over that work for us?
What type of plays are our weaknesses and what type of plays are our strengths as a collective unit?

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

I call it believing in your system and believing in your players to execute the task at hand.

But yes, he can be stubborn.

Agreed and that is fine BUT you need to create that mismatch and disadvantage to increase your chances of success. This is not the 90's NFL and as much talent as we have they are not those players. Very talented but not as good IMO.

 

[CF74]

That whole drive we ate up yardage on the run. Then we could not punch it in. I don't really grasp how that became bad play calling as opposed to bad execution or good defense.

That is the problem I have with the bad play calling angle, it completely discredits the defense you are playing.

On the contrary the defense responded and adjusted to the sequence of plays that were being called and made a great stand, as did the other teams that have stuffed us. As I've stated ad nauseum already, if you are going to run the ball 3 or 4 times in a row, at least disguise it when down to your last attempt. Why not line up 3 or 4 wide and then run it in? We've had success when we've disguised it on the goal line.

Isn't the definition of insanity trying the same thing over and over expecting different results?:laugh2:

Hey defense, we are gonna run it at ya 4 times ok, so all you have to do is have your linemen dive low and create a pile, have your lb's and safeties shoot the gaps, cb's cover the ends if you want but we are coming straight up the middle, you already know this, and especially since Gurode and Bigg are slow as hell, as long as you have your linemen dive low it will take them out and create a pile, your lb's can come in and clean it up. OK? Oh and props for stopping us, especially since our big *** lineman are tired and you've rotated some of your players, that's real smart and commendable.

 

[Hostile]

Over playing an injured back is an entire different subject but yeah it does fall under coaching error which points to not giving your team an edge. We've also had a sequence of pass attempts stall out many times as well.
I still see this problem as a combination of execution, play calling, and coaching.

When the playing field is relatively even, coaching and play calling will either give you an edge or it will give the other team the edge.

With your permission please allow me to ask you some questions now.

Do you agree with that last statement in bold?
What is the identity of this offense?
What specific sets of plays do we run over and over that work for us?
What type of plays are our weaknesses and what type of plays are our strengths as a collective unit?

1. No. I do not agree with the statement in bold. A turnover can change that edge. A tipped ball can change that edge. A referee error can change that edge. An injury on the play can change that edge. A great play by the Defense can change the edge. A sack can change the edge. A sudden gust of wind can change the edge.

2. I have no idea what this question means and am not sure how to answer it.

3. Passing plays and running plays. I am not trying to be a smart alec here. There is no such thing as a 100% successful or unsuccessful play. Not for any team. The game is chess with human pieces. Sometimes you throw a deep ball not to have a quick strike so much as to make the DBs play back and free the run.

4. I think this is a repeat of the one above but asks weaknesses too. The problem I have with this whole line of thought is that it removes the Defense you are facing from the equation. They are just out there. Their efforts have nothing whatsoever to do with success or failure. I completely reject that as utter nonsense.

 

[Hostile]

On the contrary the defense responded and adjusted to the sequence of plays that were being called and made a great stand, as did the other teams that have stuffed us. As I've stated ad nauseum already, if you are going to run the ball 3 or 4 times in a row, at least disguise it when down to your last attempt. Why not line up 3 or 4 wide and then run it in? We've had success when we've disguised it on the goal line.

Isn't the definition of insanity trying the same thing over and over expecting different results?:laugh2:

Hey defense, we are gonna run it at ya 4 times ok, so all you have to do is have your linemen dive low and create a pile, have your lb's and safeties shoot the gaps, cb's cover the ends if you want but we are coming straight up the middle, you already know this, and especially since Gurode and Bigg are slow as hell, as long as you have your linemen dive low it will take them out and create a pile, your lb's can come in and clean it up. OK? Oh and props for stopping us, especially since our big *** lineman are tired and you've rotated some of your players, that's real smart and commendable.

I will once again, ad nauseum, tell you that your whole argument falls apart if we scored on that sequence of plays. It is a bad play call in your mind because we turned the ball over on downs. Yet if a defender had slipped and fallen or missed the tackle and we scored you call the very same play a success.

That is too thin.

Oh, and I am never going to respond to the tired question about insanity so please stop asking. We're talking football here not psychosis. For the love of rational thought, we have a RB who is known as one of the hardest runners in the NFL, injured or not. We have a huge OL who have been known to blow defenders off the ball.

This is not quantum physics, it is not psychoanalysis, and it is not romper room.

 

[CF74]

1. No. I do not agree with the statement in bold. A turnover can change that edge. A tipped ball can change that edge. A referee error can change that edge. An injury on the play can change that edge. A great play by the Defense can change the edge. A sack can change the edge. A sudden gust of wind can change the edge.

We aren't talking about intangibles or acts of God, we are talking about the element of surprise.

Are you saying that if the defense doesn't know what play is coming next that the offense doesn't have a slight edge in completing the play?

 

[Doomsday101]

We aren't talking about intangibles or acts of God, we are talking about the element of surprise.

Are you saying that if the defense doesn't know what play is coming next that the offense doesn't have a slight edge in completing the play?

Even if the D does not know for sure what play is call the play has to be executed. Balls can get tipped, dropped or blow blocking assingment that leads to a sack. The best laid plans can be foiled by poor execution.

The kicker is if we run the ball in that situation and are successful no one questions the call the only time the call comes under question tends to be after the fact. If you tried to run it in and it fails every living room OC feels we should have thrown for it and same if we pass and fail.

 

[Hostile]

Even if the D does not know for sure what play is call the play has to be executed. Balls can get tipped, dropped or blow blocking assingment that leads to a sack. The best laid plans can be foiled by poor execution.

The kicker is if we run the ball in that situation and are successful no one questions the call the only time the call comes under question tends to be after the fact. If you tried to run it in and it fails every living room OC feels we should have thrown for it and same if we pass and fail.

I keep saying that over and over and over and over.

If we had thrown it on 4th down and it was incomplete, it would be the same story. Heaven forbid a pick 6. I guarantee you the thought would be we should have punched it in. But because we tried to punch it in and got stopped that is the rally cry.

Not ever going to buy that.

 

[CF74]

I will once again, ad nauseum, tell you that your whole argument falls apart if we scored on that sequence of plays.

But it's not just One sequence of plays, it's several, and it's the difference between going deep into the postseason and being eliminated.

In 2007 we got eliminated because several players didn't catch a TD pass or didn't finish a route, that is clearly execution. There were also times during that game where we were going for the home run when all we needed was a few yards and the drive stalled out, that was on the play calling. You can't hit a home run every time. Live by the big play, die by the big play, and we did.

In 2008 Romo got knocked out for three games because we were still trying to go for the big play to much. Plays were taking to damn long to develop and Romo was taking a beating back there. That year the injury bug got a hold of us and the rest is history.

In 2009 after a few games we stopped going deep as much and as time progressed Romo lowered his turnovers. It wasn't till the Saints game that we started going long again and this time Romo was on target and we turned the page. We had a really good season but then our O-line wore down and Romo was back to running for his life again down the stretch. There were some bad decisions in that Vikings game and we lost all momentum, and then the game got out of hand. Specifically trying to kick a long FG with a spotty kicker and pulling Felix out of the game when he was on a roll just to name a few.

There are times when the players just don't execute and there are times where the coaches blatantly call a bad series of plays but in the end it's a combination of the two that sends you home early...

 

[Doomsday101]

I keep saying that over and over and over and over.

If we had thrown it on 4th down and it was incomplete, it would be the same story. Heaven forbid a pick 6. I guarantee you the thought would be we should have punched it in. But because we tried to punch it in and got stopped that is the rally cry.

Not ever going to buy that.

The other thing about play calling that is not being mentioned is the fact the QB can check in and out of plays. If we have a pass play that has come in the QB can check out of it depending on what the defense alignment may be. I think when people talk about play calling they make it more black and white than what it really is.

 

[CF74]

Even if the D does not know for sure what play is call the play has to be executed. Balls can get tipped, dropped or blow blocking assingment that leads to a sack. The best laid plans can be foiled by poor execution.

The kicker is if we run the ball in that situation and are successful no one questions the call the only time the call comes under question tends to be after the fact. If you tried to run it in and it fails every living room OC feels we should have thrown for it and same if we pass and fail.

But that's not what we are talking about here. The question is: Who has the edge if the defense doesn't know what play is coming next? Forget about intangibles and acts of God after the ball is snapped and the play is run, who has the edge prior to chaos???

 

[Doomsday101]

But that's not what we are talking about here. The question is: Who has the edge if the defense doesn't know what play is coming next? Forget about intangibles and acts of God after the ball is snapped and the play is run, who has the edge prior to chaos???

Based on formation the defense gets a pretty good sense of what is coming. Teams study film all week long they know pretty much what you are looking to do. I think it is funny that people make more out of Ray Lewis comments of knowing what plays we would run.

hell Dat Nguyen knew what plays were coming based off what we had seen from the opposing offense through out the week. Add to that many times the plays coming in does get changed based on the formation the defense may be playing.

Heck Garrett may have called a slant rout but because now the safety has moved up and Romo is looking at a one on one on the outside he may check the play off to a long pass. If he is wrong and does not execute the OC play call comes into question.

 

[CF74]

The other thing about play calling that is not being mentioned is the fact the QB can check in and out of plays. If we have a pass play that has come in the QB can check out of it depending on what the defense alignment may be. I think when people talk about play calling they make it more black and white than what it really is.

You need to re-read the thread or at least follow the flow of the discussion because you are talking about something entirely different here.

We are talking about the failure of a sequence of plays in which the opposition clearly knows what is coming.

The non-existent advantage of the ole element of surprise (In our situation) where as countless battles were decided by a few brave against insurmountable odds because they in fact DID HAVE THE ELEMENT OF SURPRISE. Literally thousands of years of history layed at our feet as an example for successful strategies and giving yourself an EDGE over the opposition....:horse: Get up Della!!! Get up!!!




Are you two turkeys really trying to tell me that when running a sequence of 4 plays that the defense doesn't have the edge when they know exactly what's coming??? Really?? Is that what you are trying to tell me here??? Or are we going to continue to evade the question and bring in acts of God and other various intangibles after the fact??? Bah!!!:laugh2:

 

[Doomsday101]

You need to re-read the thread or at least follow the flow of the discussion because you are talking about something entirely different here.

We are talking about the failure of a sequence of plays in which the opposition clearly knows what is coming.

The non-existent advantage of the ole element of surprise (In our situation) where as countless battles were decided by a few brave against insurmountable odds because they in fact DID HAVE THE ELEMENT OF SURPRISE. Literally thousands of years of history layed at our feet as an example for successful strategies and giving yourself an EDGE over the opposition....:horse: Get up Della!!! Get up!!!




Are you two turkeys really trying to tell me that when running a sequence of 4 plays that the defense doesn't have the edge when they know exactly what's coming??? Really?? Is that what you are trying to tell me here??? Or are we going to continue to evade the question and bring in acts of God and other various intangibles after the fact??? Bah!!!:laugh2:

How would they know what the next 4 plays would be ran when the offense would not even know that?

 

[CF74]

How would they know what the next 4 plays would be ran when the offense would not even know that?

Here's a hint: We were running the ball all the way down the field and then got down to the goal line. Then we pulled out all but one of the WR's and brought in 2 TE's to block. And then we pulled the last WR out and brought in a 3rd TE and an extra back. All the while still running the ball. The only thing we didn't do was have Romo stand up behind the center prior to the snap and point and yell, hey dummies, we are going right up your gut!!!:laugh2:

So who had the edge here?

 

[Doomsday101]

Here's a hint: We were running the ball all the way down the field and then got down to the goal line. Then we pulled out all but one of the WR's and brought in 2 TE's to block. And then we pulled the last WR out and brought in a 3rd TE and an extra back. All the while still running the ball. The only thing we didn't do was have Romo stand up behind the center prior to the snap and point and yell, hey dummies, we are going right up your gut!!!:laugh2:

So who had the edge here?

Offense still has the edge. Does the defense know when the ball is going to be snapped? NO is the defense more inclinded to be tired after a long drive down the field yes. Do they know this is going to be an inside run or outside? NO. It was not a bad call to run it and as soon as you pass and get picked off that is when fans start hollering why did Garrett try and get cute when they had just rammed the ball down the other teams throat. Execute the play it will work you need 1 yard I do expect my OL to get the push up front

 

[wem]

All fair assessments thus far and great feedback... Thanks! Garrett definitely owned the Eagles this year. That, in and of itself, tells a little story I suppose. Last year it was 44-6. This year, there were no remnants of that season ending thrashing to be found.

Game planning against an known opponent is one thing. Being able to come up with changes to address an infrequent opponent at halftime is very difficult. While the Minn. game was not a good one, I think you can look to games against NO and to a certain extent SD as indications of what JG may be able to do.

Also it should be noted; while folks are talking about FA, draft, playcalling etc., IMO Last season was really affected by our losses to the NYG's and Denver. Winning games we should win would have given us home field for this year and I believe would have gotten us into the SB this year. Next year, with our tough schedule, it will be a large factor. Some else to consider I guess..........

WEM

 

[CF74]

Offense still has the edge. Does the defense know when the ball is going to be snapped? NO is the defense more inclinded to be tired after a long drive down the field yes. Do they know this is going to be an inside run or outside? NO. It was not a bad call to run it and as soon as you pass and get picked off that is when fans start hollering why did Garrett try and get cute when they had just rammed the ball down the other teams throat. Execute the play it will work you need 1 yard I do expect my OL to get the push up front

I respectfully disagree. Even the 90's Cowboys (Being a dominant team) were stuffed a few times, but in this particular case Dallas and San Diego were relatively equal which levels the playing field.

When you become one dimensional it Narrows the playing field and it gives the defense the advantage. It's like attacking up hill, the odds are against you prior to the snap.

Also the defense was bringing in substitutions, our big old o-line was gassed down there. As far as the Garrett getting cute down there comment, it's irrelevant in this discussion, we are talking about who has the edge. "Getting cute" or being wise would have been spreading it out with a 4 WR set and then running the ball. The element of surprise. Oh and it was 2 yards not one...

 

[Doomsday101]

I respectfully disagree. Even the 90's Cowboys (Being a dominant team) were stuffed a few times, but in this particular case Dallas and San Diego were relatively equal which levels the playing field.

When you become one dimensional it Narrows the playing field and it gives the defense the advantage. It's like attacking up hill, the odds are against you prior to the snap.

Also the defense was bringing in substitutions, our big old o-line was gassed down there. As far as the Garrett getting cute down there comment, it's irrelevant in this discussion, we are talking about who has the edge. "Getting cute" or being wise would have been spreading it out with a 4 WR set and then running the ball. The element of surprise. Oh and it was 2 yards not one...

Well you described Dallas bring in a 2 TE set on the play and how that was a sure running situation yet vs Philly on 1st and goal from the 1 we lined up in a big formation (2 TE) play actioned and threw the TD pass to Phillips so claiming we were telling them the play is false. You may disagree but as long as I have been watching the game the one thing I know for sure is when a play fails people claim it to be play calling and the vast majority of the time that is non sense player have to execute I don't care what play you call if you fail to execute the play will not work by the same token you can come out look the D in the face and say we are going to ram it down your throat and there is nothing you can do about it if you execute it