Red Exploitation

[Hostile]

I think Garrett's ceiling is higher than Payton's but Payton is ahead for now. My reason is because of who each learned from and how much each also know on their own. Garrett is from a football family. He's just scratching the surface and getting very similar results with what most people feel is a lesser QB.

 

[Sarge]

He's good and getting better. I'd like to see him grow with us and not against us.

 

[Dough Boy]

He's just scratching the surface and getting very similar results with what most people feel is a lesser QB.

Red has a lot of upside potential. He grew over the course of the year.

Peyton is a good Off minded coach. The one thing I like about him, he puts the pressure on opposing Def. He just doesn't sit back. He is always in attack mode.

I like both. I give the current edge to Peyton, bc he is also the HC and he has that team ready to play each week (notwithstanding the three game stretch LOL). Even though Williams runs the Def, it's Peyton's team. Just like the Cowboys are Wade's team; for better or for worse.

 

[Dough Boy]

I disagree. He was great with us. What I liked best is that he owned Jim Johnson. When he was with the Giants and us.
We went 3-3 against the eagles from 2003-2005 and hey had the better team for that stretch. Peyton was a big part of that. He out coached/called Johnson almost every time they went head to head.

BTW Our offense was on fire in 2005 til Adams went down in week 6.

3-3 is not exactly owning. And, don't know if you are comparing apples to apples when you take into account Peyton's wins with the Giants.

For the record, RED was 2-2 vs Jim Johnson and has yet to lose a game to a McDurmont led Philly Def.

 

[sonnyboy]

3-3 is not exactly owning. And, don't know if you are comparing apples to apples when you take into account Peyton's wins with the Giants.

For the record, RED was 2-2 vs Jim Johnson and has yet to lose a game to a McDurmont led Philly Def.

He did very well against Johnson in the early part of the decade. Look back to those 6 games they went head to head. Our offensive production was very good with little talent.

 

[Doomsday101]

I think Garrett is a good OC I also think it is amazing what the offense can do when they go out and execute the offense. Vs Philly Dallas was playing very good at the line and was able to hold off the Philly blitz and open up some running lanes, by the same token Dallas front line was man handled by the Vikes front and the offense faltered. I don't think Garrett got stupid in 1 week I think much of what Garrett wanted to do on offense went out the window when we could not control the front line. Whether people want to admit it or not every single offense starts up front, lose that battle and the rest of the offense will struggle

 

[burmafrd]

Bledsoe as QB vs Romo as QB. Kind of unfair. I do not really see how you can say Garret will be better or even as good as Payton. Its clear that McDermot is no where near as good as Johnson was. To me Red still has to really grow beyond the cutesy faze as well as being able to adjust DURING the game.

 

[lkelly]

Didn't Romo (or someone on the offensive side) say after watching film of the Vikings game that they had the right play called almost all the time. They just didn't execute or have time due to the pressure.

I'm pretty sure I read that quote on here at some point.

Having an MVP quality QB helps any play caller. Give Payton Jason Campbell or some other mediocre option and the shine wears off quickly.

 

[HoosierCowboy]

why it's incredible we beat the Eagles 3 times--on offense and defese we had to make adjustments between games and at the half--we simply outcoached what is thought of as a good coaching staff in Philly

 

[DFWJC]

He's good and growing into his job.

Mixed reviews on game day as the Eagles and Vikings games illustrate. He exploited the Eagles but was exploited (and vastly underestimated) the Vikes onslaught. Can't mention one without the other...

 

[Alexander]

He basically owned Sean McDermott in the last 2 Eagles games.

He also owned a first year defensive coordinator with McDermott. Other more experienced coordinators like Mike Nolan, Ron Rivera, Greg Blache, Leslie Frazier and Dom Capers frustrated him. It is going to happen as he matures.

Payton is and was far more experienced when he took over the Saints. It is all part of the maturation process. Garrett should be fine. This is only his third year doing this on any level. Growing pains are frustrating and I understand how some fans can get upset. We saw the same thing happening with Payton when he was on-board.

 

[DFWJC]

He also owned a first year defensive coordinator with McDermott. Other more experienced coordinators like Mike Nolan, Ron Rivera, Greg Blache, Leslie Frazier and Dom Capers frustrated him. It is going to happen as he matures.

Payton is and was far more experienced when he took over the Saints. It is all part of the maturation process. Garrett should be fine. This is only his third year doing this on any level. Growing pains are frustrating and I understand how some fans can get upset. We saw the same thing happening with Payton when he was on-board.

This......+1

 

[theebs]

He also owned a first year defensive coordinator with McDermott. Other more experienced coordinators like Mike Nolan, Ron Rivera, Greg Blache, Leslie Frazier and Dom Capers frustrated him. It is going to happen as he matures.

Payton is and was far more experienced when he took over the Saints. It is all part of the maturation process. Garrett should be fine. This is only his third year doing this on any level. Growing pains are frustrating and I understand how some fans can get upset. We saw the same thing happening with Payton when he was on-board.

well that is not competely accurate. Garrett has frustrated many of the more experienced and better coordinators.

his units dominated spagnulo's in ny in 07 and did well in 08. HIs units kicked jim johnsons rear end in 07 and in 08 the first time. He beat up on greg williams and greg blache in washington and in new orleans.

We manhandled leslie frasiers defense in 07, We kicked rivera's chicago defense up and down the field in 07, We also dominated Dom capers 07 miami defense.

Its not about maturation with those teams, its just about how the team played that day. You can look at a number of those games this year and see guys were in position to make plays that could have changed games and we made mistakes.

The 07 playoff loss and the vikings loss fall squarely on the offensive line. Now garret is the coordinator and you could assign blame to him and houck for that, that is valid.....but you can also just say the other guys were better and that is also true.

but this notion that we lost to capers, rivera, blache etc because of a lack of maturity is nonsense to me, I mean how could his units whip them in his first year of his duties calling plays but then three years into the process he cant beat them because he isnt experienced enough.

Its just about how those guys played that day. Had we played the vikings at home 3 weeks ago I absolutely believe we go up and down the field and score in the high 20s and win the game.

 

[Alexander]

but this notion that we lost to capers, rivera, blache etc because of a lack of maturity is nonsense to me, I mean how could his units whip them in his first year of his duties calling plays but then three years into the process he cant beat them because he isnt experienced enough.

Simple. Tony Sparano was a big part of his initial success. Nobody was questioning much of anything about Garrett in 2007. Rivera, Capers, Blache, Spagnuolo, all in 2007. That is where he had a big assist from Sparano. That was far and away his best year and it is ridiculous to assume he was not green at that point, much moreso than he is now.

A lot of people wanted Reeves here last season and I think he would have helped Garrett round off his game. He'll get there, but this idea that he is just completely finished product because of his success in 2007 and his teams don't execute or have bad days to lose now is just as much nonsense to me. Like everyone else, he'll keep working and will get better.

 

[Dough Boy]

well that is not competely accurate. Garrett has frustrated many of the more experienced and better coordinators.

his units dominated spagnulo's in ny in 07 and did well in 08. HIs units kicked jim johnsons rear end in 07 and in 08 the first time. He beat up on greg williams and greg blache in washington and in new orleans.

We manhandled leslie frasiers defense in 07, We kicked rivera's chicago defense up and down the field in 07, We also dominated Dom capers 07 miami defense.

Its not about maturation with those teams, its just about how the team played that day. You can look at a number of those games this year and see guys were in position to make plays that could have changed games and we made mistakes.

The 07 playoff loss and the vikings loss fall squarely on the offensive line. Now garret is the coordinator and you could assign blame to him and houck for that, that is valid.....but you can also just say the other guys were better and that is also true.

but this notion that we lost to capers, rivera, blache etc because of a lack of maturity is nonsense to me, I mean how could his units whip them in his first year of his duties calling plays but then three years into the process he cant beat them because he isnt experienced enough.

Its just about how those guys played that day. Had we played the vikings at home 3 weeks ago I absolutely believe we go up and down the field and score in the high 20s and win the game.

I agree. Good days and bad days.

 

[Direwolf63]

He's good and getting better. I'd like to see him grow with us and not against us.

Ditto.

I agree that Garrett has to get better to adjust on the fly. He also needs works on play-calling in the red zone. He has to fix the disconnect the offense had this year between yards gained and points scored.

But other than that, Garrett has terrific upside and I hope he becomes the next HC after Wade hangs 'em up.

 

[theebs]

Simple. Tony Sparano was a big part of his initial success. Nobody was questioning much of anything about Garrett in 2007. Rivera, Capers, Blache, Spagnuolo, all in 2007. That is where he had a big assist from Sparano. That was far and away his best year and it is ridiculous to assume he was not green at that point, much moreso than he is now.

A lot of people wanted Reeves here last season and I think he would have helped Garrett round off his game. He'll get there, but this idea that he is just completely finished product because of his success in 2007 and his teams don't execute or have bad days to lose now is just as much nonsense to me. Like everyone else, he'll keep working and will get better.

exactly where did I say he is a finished product? I didnt and do believe he along with many on the staff are getting better.

My response was to your comments that he couldnt beat frasier, blache, capers, rivera etc because he didnt have the experience. Yet he had beat them the first season he was here calling plays.

I figured instead of giving someone else credit for pointing out what you said was inaccurate you would stick something else in the reply to emphasize your initial wrong comments.

he is not a finished product, but he is very good and he was good in 07 and 08. Was Tony Sporano a help, no doubt. How could he not be, he is an excellent coach. however if you are going to say garrett only called good games in 07 against these same coordinators because of sporano you need to also credit the other experienced coaches on the staff, ray sherman, skip peete and hudson houck.

again though, I dont think he is a finished product by any stretch...how could he be. He is going into his 4th season calling plays....but again I think its nonsense to say he cant beat coordinators in 09 because he lacks maturity or experience when he already had great success against them in 07.

another name you can throw in there is jim haslett the skins new coach, our offense played well against his then top 10 rated rams defense in 07.

 

[Hostile]

Sean Payton's years as a Coordinator and Offensive results.

Giants
2000...328 points scored, 5376 yards
2001...294 points scored, 5335 yards
2002...320 points scored, 5826 yards

Cowboys
2003...289 points scored, 5181 yards
2004...293 points scored, 5197 yards
2005...325 points scored, 5202 yards

Averages...308.2 points per season, 5352.8 yards per season.


Jason Garrett's years as a Coordinator and Offensive results

Cowboys
2007...455 points scored, 5851 yards
2008...362 points scored, 5512 yards
2009...361 points scored, 6390 yards

Averages...392.7 points per season, 5917.7 yards per season.


I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I think the expectations on Garrett by some people are a little out of whack and have more to do with the perception he is Jerry's pet than anything else.

 

[Doomsday101]

Sean Payton's years as a Coordinator and Offensive results.

Giants
2000...328 points scored, 5376 yards
2001...294 points scored, 5335 yards
2002...320 points scored, 5826 yards

Cowboys
2003...289 points scored, 5181 yards
2004...293 points scored, 5197 yards
2005...325 points scored, 5202 yards


Jason Garrett's years as a Coordinator and Offensive results

Cowboys
2007...455 points scored, 5851 yards
2008...362 points scored, 5512 yards
2009...361 points scored, 6390 yards


I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I think the expectations on Garrett by some people are a little out of whack and have more to do with the perception he is Jerry's pet than anything else.

I tend to feel the same way. No doubt I do not agree with every single call he makes in a game then again the same could be said about any corrdinator. If Dallas loses a game all of a sudden it is Garrett being outcoached and fact is sometime we just get out played.

Vike did not out smart us they beat us at the line and not just 1 spot along the line but 3 and 4 different areas along the line. You can call any play in the book and it will not work when your line is getting man handled.

Vikes did not have to throw blitzes at us because they could use 4 down lineman and create problems and keep others in coverage when that happens it not a matter of being out coached it is a matter of being out played. Players have to execute and do their jobs when they don't you will get beat

 

[theebs]

Sean Payton's years as a Coordinator and Offensive results.

Giants
2000...328 points scored, 5376 yards
2001...294 points scored, 5335 yards
2002...320 points scored, 5826 yards

Cowboys
2003...289 points scored, 5181 yards
2004...293 points scored, 5197 yards
2005...325 points scored, 5202 yards


Jason Garrett's years as a Coordinator and Offensive results

Cowboys
2007...455 points scored, 5851 yards
2008...362 points scored, 5512 yards
2009...361 points scored, 6390 yards


I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I think the expectations on Garrett by some people are a little out of whack and have more to do with the perception he is Jerry's pet than anything else.

most of these same people wanted to lynch payton after the 05 season and loved that he left. I can remember people on this forum and another one at the time late in 05 blaming parcells and payton for the teams struggles.....the loss to washington in december and the loss to ny in december were put on payton.

now there were some who strictly hated parcells and called him conservative and blamed him and in the media there was a large contigent that said parcells wouldnt let payton call plays his way......

Either way most of the media and most of the same contigent that dislike garrett had a beef with payton and were not at all worried about losing him.

The best part about payton to me is that he became a scapegoat for fassel in ny in two seasons and now fassel can not get back into the nfl anywher and payton is a head coach of a super bowl team....God I love that.