Red Exploitation

[Hostile]

Epilogue...

Some can rightly point to Sean Payton's Offenses now and say they are better than Garrett's. I will agree. I will also tell you that he had 6 years as an OC before he got a HC gig and as the Head Coach he no longer has to answer to Jim Fassell or Bill Parcells. It is his team.

Whether people want to accept it or not, every OC still plays within the Head Coach's system. Jason Garrett does answer to Wade Phillips.

Am I saying once he is his own Head Coach we will have an Offensive powerhouse similar to New Orleans? I am saying that is quite possible. For those who are unaware, Garrett has had Norv Turner, Ernie Zampese, and even Sean Payton as some of the OCs he has learned under. This is in addition to Jimmy Johnson and Jim Fassell.

I think the rush to bury him as a failure is beyond ignorant when his results at equal time with the best Offensive mind in the game today are superior to that same best Offensive mind.

 

[tyke1doe]

A good/great offensive coordinator knows how to devise a game plan but also knows how to deviate from it when it's not having success and shift to something that is.

Jason Garrett still needs work there.

He doesn't seem to sense the mood/flow of the game and continues being married to his game plan, IMO. Three situations:

1. The first Giants game. We have a four-point lead on the Giants. We've been running it down the Gmen's throats. We get the ball near the 50 yard line. Do we continue pounding the ball? No. Garrett gets cute, calls a deep pass play. Interception by the Giants. They go on to score. They go on to win.

2. Up 10-0 against the Broncos in hostile territory (Denver) and deep in their territory. Third and very long. Do we run the safe play, punt and continue riding our defense? No. We pass the ball, Romo hit, Romo fumbles. A few plays later, Denver scores and they're back in the game. And they win.

3. The beginning of the Minnesota playoff game. Felix Jones is running and getting positive yards. 4, 7, 6. Do we continue riding Felix until the Vikings can stop us? No. We change our strategy and not only get no points, but dramatically shift the game (and the crowd) in Minnesota's favor.

Until Garrett gets better in controling these type situations, I won't consider him one of the better offensive coordinators. He's on his way, but he still has much to improve upon.

 

[NextGenBoys]

If you can't block for the passer, stop trying to pass it all the time. Simple math.

And when you cant run-block, what's your answer?

Because we faced that dilemma multiple times this season.

 

[NextGenBoys]

A good/great offensive coordinator knows how to devise a game plan but also knows how to deviate from it when it's not having success and shift to something that is.

Jason Garrett still needs work there.

He doesn't seem to sense the mood/flow of the game and continues being married to his game plan, IMO. Three situations:

1. The first Giants game. We have a four-point lead on the Giants. We've been running it down the Gmen's throats. We get the ball near the 50 yard line. Do we continue pounding the ball? No. Garrett gets cute, calls a deep pass play. Interception by the Giants. They go on to score. They go on to win.

2. Up 10-0 against the Broncos in hostile territory (Denver) and deep in their territory. Third and very long. Do we run the safe play, punt and continue riding our defense? No. We pass the ball, Romo hit, Romo fumbles. A few plays later, Denver scores and they're back in the game. And they win.

3. The beginning of the Minnesota playoff game. Felix Jones is running and getting positive yards. 4, 7, 6. Do we continue riding Felix until the Vikings can stop us? No. We change our strategy and not only get no points, but dramatically shift the game (and the crowd) in Minnesota's favor.

Until Garrett gets better in controling these type situations, I won't consider him one of the better offensive coordinators. He's on his way, but he still has much to improve upon.

I view all these examples as simply whining that we didn't get our desired result, not mad at playcalling.

1.) You take your shots deep down the field AFTER you've established a strong running game. Can you really blame him for calling a play-action bomb against NY? I'd hope not.

2.) Can you really blame Garrett for being aggressive and trying to get the first down, or at best, more room for your punter? I'd hope not.

3.) I agree with your point here, but the fumble, and then fumble/missed FG is simply lack of execution. I would've liked to keep running the ball as well, but I cant put our miscues solely on him.

 

[CF74]

A good/great offensive coordinator knows how to devise a game plan but also knows how to deviate from it when it's not having success and shift to something that is.

Jason Garrett still needs work there.

He doesn't seem to sense the mood/flow of the game and continues being married to his game plan, IMO. Three situations:

1. The first Giants game. We have a four-point lead on the Giants. We've been running it down the Gmen's throats. We get the ball near the 50 yard line. Do we continue pounding the ball? No. Garrett gets cute, calls a deep pass play. Interception by the Giants. They go on to score. They go on to win.

2. Up 10-0 against the Broncos in hostile territory (Denver) and deep in their territory. Third and very long. Do we run the safe play, punt and continue riding our defense? No. We pass the ball, Romo hit, Romo fumbles. A few plays later, Denver scores and they're back in the game. And they win.

3. The beginning of the Minnesota playoff game. Felix Jones is running and getting positive yards. 4, 7, 6. Do we continue riding Felix until the Vikings can stop us? No. We change our strategy and not only get no points, but dramatically shift the game (and the crowd) in Minnesota's favor.

Until Garrett gets better in controling these type situations, I won't consider him one of the better offensive coordinators. He's on his way, but he still has much to improve upon.

He just doesn't like to commit to the run whether it's working or not and the few times that he has he did it in a one dimensional way till the point of predictability and failure. Some of that may very well be on Wade..

 

[Doomsday101]

I view all these examples as simply whining that we didn't get our desired result, not mad at playcalling.

1.) You take your shots deep down the field AFTER you've established a strong running game. Can you really blame him for calling a play-action bomb against NY? I'd hope not.

2.) Can you really blame Garrett for being aggressive and trying to get the first down, or at best, more room for your punter? I'd hope not.

3.) I agree with your point here, but the fumble, and then fumble/missed FG is simply lack of execution. I would've liked to keep running the ball as well, but I cant put our miscues solely on him.

Your number 3 point, Romo said the same thing.

 

[Alexander]

My response was to your comments that he couldnt beat frasier, blache, capers, rivera etc because he didnt have the experience. Yet he had beat them the first season he was here calling plays.

I figured instead of giving someone else credit for pointing out what you said was inaccurate you would stick something else in the reply to emphasize your initial wrong comments.

Wrong? If the circumstances were identical, I would be wrong. If the circumstances were identical you would be right. They are not.

I figured instead of acknowledging my valid point about Sparano's possible influence you would figure it out and at least admit the fact that 2007 is not a fair guage of his singular abilities in playcalling and gameplanning. I suppose that isn't the case.

he is not a finished product, but he is very good and he was good in 07 and 08. Was Tony Sporano a help, no doubt. How could he not be, he is an excellent coach. however if you are going to say garrett only called good games in 07 against these same coordinators because of sporano you need to also credit the other experienced coaches on the staff, ray sherman, skip peete and hudson houck.

Sparano had a greater degree of input on the gameplanning and the balance than Sherman and Skip Peete. He also was the OL position coach and it is not a coincidence that the OL struggles have cost us football games in 2008-9.

again though, I dont think he is a finished product by any stretch...how could he be. He is going into his 4th season calling plays....but again I think its nonsense to say he cant beat coordinators in 09 because he lacks maturity or experience when he already had great success against them in 07.

He does lack maturity and experience. It was evident at times. I don't think it is out of line at all to suggest he lost a good bit of that without Sparano around to provide needed input.

another name you can throw in there is jim haslett the skins new coach, our offense played well against his then top 10 rated rams defense in 07.

There's that 2007 issue again. Funny how that keeps happening.

 

[NextGenBoys]

Sean Payton's years as a Coordinator and Offensive results.

Giants
2000...328 points scored, 5376 yards
2001...294 points scored, 5335 yards
2002...320 points scored, 5826 yards

Cowboys
2003...289 points scored, 5181 yards
2004...293 points scored, 5197 yards
2005...325 points scored, 5202 yards

Averages...308.2 points per season, 5352.8 yards per season.


Jason Garrett's years as a Coordinator and Offensive results

Cowboys
2007...455 points scored, 5851 yards
2008...362 points scored, 5512 yards
2009...361 points scored, 6390 yards

Averages...392.7 points per season, 5917.7 yards per season.


I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I think the expectations on Garrett by some people are a little out of whack and have more to do with the perception he is Jerry's pet than anything else.

I'm one of the bigger Garrett supporters on this board, along with you Hos, but I dont think you can compare the Cowboys 07-09, to the Cowboys from 03-05 to judge a coordinator.

The talent level is probably 2x.

I always say execution is the most important element, and this is no different. The execution now, compared to 03-05 is much, much better I would assume.

 

[burmafrd]

Two Points. 1) Who were the QBs and what were the O lines like when Payton was an OC? Garret has had a lot better QB and somewhat better O line his time.

2) It seems pretty clear that Garrett pretty much runs the offense his way with minimal oversight from Wade.

 

[tyke1doe]

I view all these examples as simply whining that we didn't get our desired result, not mad at playcalling.

Uh, what defines success and failure? Results.
If the results work, we're not having this discussion. If they don't, we are.
Besides, how do you get better if you don't get results? You analyze the situation and correct it.
Analyzing where things went wrong and how to get them right in the future is not whining.
Unless you don't want to learn from your mistakes.

1.) You take your shots deep down the field AFTER you've established a strong running game. Can you really blame him for calling a play-action bomb against NY? I'd hope not.

But with almost a quarter left to play, why not continue to tire the Giants defense out?

2.) Can you really blame Garrett for being aggressive and trying to get the first down, or at best, more room for your punter? I'd hope not.

Again, situation, down and distance. It was like 3 and 15 if I recall correctly.
You have to play the odds. What is the likelihood that you're going to convert that first down? And then, what is the likelihood that you may get a turnover deep in your own territory and give a home team momentum.

3.) I agree with your point here, but the fumble, and then fumble/missed FG is simply lack of execution. I would've liked to keep running the ball as well, but I cant put our miscues solely on him.

You shifted my argument. I didn't point to the aftermath of this particular playcalling. I focused on the initial playcalling when the score was 0-0. When you're on the road playing a team like the Vikings, it's crucial you score first to take the crowd out the game and put some doubt in the minds of your opponent.
Maybe the Cowboys would have still loss the game. But we didn't help ourselves by abandoning what worked on our way to putting the first points on the board.

 

[NextGenBoys]

Uh, what defines success and failure? Results.
If the results work, we're not having this discussion. If they don't, we are.
Besides, how do you get better if you don't get results? You analyze the situation and correct it.
Analyzing where things went wrong and how to get them right in the future is not whining.
Unless you don't want to learn from your mistakes.

I dont like to be that result oriented. I like to take more factors into account. If a play doesnt work, it's not always a bad call. If a play does work, it's not always a good call.

But with almost a quarter left to play, why not continue to tire the Giants defense out?

Because our offensive philosophy is to be aggressive. the 50-40 yardline is when you take your shots to the end zone. We cant have it both ways, wanting to be aggressive, and then when it backfires, want us to keep running. I like our aggressive philosophy, and Garrett will continue to be aggressive.

Again, situation, down and distance. It was like 3 and 15 if I recall correctly.
You have to play the odds. What is the likelihood that you're going to convert that first down? And then, what is the likelihood that you may get a turnover deep in your own territory and give a home team momentum

I would be willing to bet the odds are MUCH higher for converting the 3rd down than turning the ball over.

You shifted my argument. I didn't point to the aftermath of this particular playcalling. I focused on the initial playcalling when the score was 0-0. When you're on the road playing a team like the Vikings, it's crucial you score first to take the crowd out the game and put some doubt in the minds of your opponent.
Maybe the Cowboys would have still loss the game. But we didn't help ourselves by abandoning what worked on our way to putting the first points on the board.

No argument there. I was there, and we temporarily had shut the crowd up. I was talking plenty of **** on our opening drive. Then the fumble, and then the fumble/missed FG. Ballgame.

 

[tyke1doe]

I dont like to be that result oriented. I like to take more factors into account. If a play doesnt work, it's not always a bad call. If a play does work, it's not always a good call.

I think winning those two games would have made a huge difference in the Cowboys fate? I tend to think we would have had different success had we won the 1st playoff seed.

Because our offensive philosophy is to be aggressive. the 50-40 yardline is when you take your shots to the end zone. We cant have it both ways, wanting to be aggressive, and then when it backfires, want us to keep running. I like our aggressive philosophy, and Garrett will continue to be aggressive.

But aggressiveness has to be tempered, otherwise we'd throw on every down.
You don't let your philosophy dictate every situation. You have to pick and choose when that philosophy is appropriate, unless you want to throw the ball up by 7 with less than two minutes in the game.

I would be willing to bet the odds are MUCH higher for converting the 3rd down than turning the ball over.

Again, it's understanding the situation. Had we been playing in Dallas, okay. But in Denver, up 10 points with the crowd kind of subdued, you have to play ball control and field position, especially when you're already up by 10 and your defense is playing well. Don't give the Broncos a short field. I'm thinking that's Football Strategy 101.

No argument there. I was there, and we temporarily had shut the crowd up. I was talking plenty of **** on our opening drive. Then the fumble, and then the fumble/missed FG. Ballgame.

And I'm not saying that Jason Garrett is trash. Like I said about Romo, he has to grow into the position. I just think there are obvious situations (like the ones I pointed out) where conventional wisdom dictate you heed it. And he did not. Those are the things he has to correct, IMO.

And I state "my opinion" because I'm no football genius, although I did stay at a Holiday Inn.

 

[Alexander]

Two Points. 1) Who were the QBs and what were the O lines like when Payton was an OC? Garret has had a lot better QB and somewhat better O line his time.

2) It seems pretty clear that Garrett pretty much runs the offense his way with minimal oversight from Wade.

Coach Parcells also limited what Payton could do. Garrett has far more autonomy than Payton ever had. It is not that difficult to see.

 

[theebs]

Wrong? If the circumstances were identical, I would be wrong. If the circumstances were identical you would be right. They are not.

I figured instead of acknowledging my valid point about Sparano's possible influence you would figure it out and at least admit the fact that 2007 is not a fair guage of his singular abilities in playcalling and gameplanning. I suppose that isn't the case.



Sparano had a greater degree of input on the gameplanning and the balance than Sherman and Skip Peete. He also was the OL position coach and it is not a coincidence that the OL struggles have cost us football games in 2008-9.



He does lack maturity and experience. It was evident at times. I don't think it is out of line at all to suggest he lost a good bit of that without Sparano around to provide needed input.



There's that 2007 issue again. Funny how that keeps happening.

Sporanos line was manhandled by the giants in the playoff game, that is what cost us the game...just like the vikings game.

again, I really loved sporano and still do. I think he is great. But at the same time I dont think what you are doing is accurate, This is garretts offense...sporano helped him gameplanning and alot has been made of it, but I also guarantee you sherman/peete and john garrett played and do play a big part in it.

But ultimately, Jason garrett called the plays in 07 and he called them in 09.

garrett has whipped many of the best coordinators in this league with and without sporano. If you choose to attribute the wins to sporano and the losses against the same guys to garrett that is you business.

Make no mistake, this is jason garrett's offense. It is derived from many different offenses he was a part of. He installed it in the offseason of 07 and it is different from tony sporanos offense. IN 07 it is well documented that sporano helped with gameplans and why wouldnt he? He knew the talent more inimately at the time.

I think its pretty clear that as time has gone on garrett has complete control and a good handle on who can do what.

So feel free to twist this too. respond with something completely out of the blue that I didnt say like he is a finished product.

 

[burmafrd]

In the giants game our O line ate the Giants up for all of the first half and part of the second half and then frankly got gassed. The Giants were able to rotate their D line and they were fresher later then our O line was.

 

[NextGenBoys]

I think winning those two games would have made a huge difference in the Cowboys fate? I tend to think we would have had different success had we won the 1st playoff seed.

Absolutely they would have made a difference. But I think execution is more to blame than simply the playcall.

But aggressiveness has to be tempered, otherwise we'd throw on every down.
You don't let your philosophy dictate every situation. You have to pick and choose when that philosophy is appropriate, unless you want to throw the ball up by 7 with less than two minutes in the game.

Of course it doesnt dictate every situation. I'd rather be aggressive on 3rd and 15 and try to pick up the yards. I remember 07 against Chicago, we faced a 3rd and 19 from our own 11, and nearly picked it up. I loved it. At best we gave McBriar more room.

And I'm not against throwing the ball up by seven with under two minutes. Remember the Colts game in 06? The slant to TG to seal the win? Thats the aggresiveness I like, and I'm not going to change my opinion/philosophy just because a it doesnt work out sometimes.

Again, it's understanding the situation. Had we been playing in Dallas, okay. But in Denver, up 10 points with the crowd kind of subdued, you have to play ball control and field position, especially when you're already up by 10 and your defense is playing well. Don't give the Broncos a short field. I'm thinking that's Football Strategy 101.

It may be strategy, but it's also strategy to pick up the given yards on 3rd down. I see nothing wrong with trying to pick up 15 yards, on 3rd down on your own 10 yard line. And no I'm not being sarcastic. I see nothing wrong with that.

Those are the things he has to correct, IMO.

Fair enough, everyone has their own opinion.

 

[Alexander]

Sporanos line was manhandled by the giants in the playoff game, that is what cost us the game...just like the vikings game.

I suppose you missed the first half where the Cowboy OL was pushing the Giants up and down the field. That is far from the manhandling the Vikings put on us this year. There is something called fatigue. The Giants DL simply dug in deeper while our line was worn out and started making mistakes.

garrett has whipped many of the best coordinators in this league with and without sporano. If you choose to attribute the wins to sporano and the losses against the same guys to garrett that is you business.

Who is putting words is whose mouth now?

I simply stated that Garrett's success in 2007 is due in part to Sparano's influence. I was not attributing wins to Sparano or downing Garrett in any way. That was thrown out there to suggest that yes, perhaps his inexperience still shows today when he struggles with those very same coordinators without an additional assist from a strong assistant coach.

You are the person stating he schooled these defensive coordinators in 2007 and you could not figure out for the life of you why it should be considered any different. I gave a reason why, you choose to ignore it.

So feel free to twist this too. respond with something completely out of the blue that I didnt say like he is a finished product.

You can do the same and suggest I somehow "attribute the wins to Sparano" and the "losses to Garrett".

 

[theebs]

In the giants game our O line ate the Giants up for all of the first half and part of the second half and then frankly got gassed. The Giants were able to rotate their D line and they were fresher later then our O line was.

we had two wide open wr in that 4th qtr.

one was miles austin and marion barber, oliver hoyte and marc columbo couldnt hold their blocks...romo rolling right and austin ran straight past r.w. mcquarters a perfect play call for the blitz the giants were running.....

romo was sacked. Austin would have walked into the endzone untouched.

that play sickens me as much as craytons mental mistake and reeves penalty. I have watched this game dozens of times, this play kills me.

http://img171.*************/img171/4860/romosackedaustinwideope.jpg
http://img40.*************/img40/4860/romosackedaustinwideope.jpg
http://img251.*************/img251/4860/romosackedaustinwideope.jpg

 

[Hostile]

I'm one of the bigger Garrett supporters on this board, along with you Hos, but I dont think you can compare the Cowboys 07-09, to the Cowboys from 03-05 to judge a coordinator.

The talent level is probably 2x.

I always say execution is the most important element, and this is no different. The execution now, compared to 03-05 is much, much better I would assume.

I didn't. I compared the 2 Offensive Coordinators. Hence why I included Payton's time with the Giants.

Whether people want to acknowledge it or not, one of the reasons the 2007-2009 Cowboys talent is better than that 2003-2005 Cowboys is because the Offensive staff have done a good job.

 

[theebs]

I suppose you missed the first half where the Cowboy OL was pushing the Giants up and down the field. That is far from the manhandling the Vikings put on us this year. There is something called fatigue. The Giants DL simply dug in deeper while our line was worn out and started making mistakes.



Who is putting words is whose mouth now?

I simply stated that Garrett's success in 2007 is due in part to Sparano's influence. I was not attributing wins to Sparano or downing Garrett in any way. That was thrown out there to suggest that yes, perhaps his inexperience still shows today when he struggles with those very same coordinators without an additional assist from a strong assistant coach.

You are the person stating he schooled these defensive coordinators in 2007 and you could not figure out for the life of you why it should be considered any different. I gave a reason why, you choose to ignore it.



You can do the same and suggest I somehow "attribute the wins to Sparano" and the "losses to Garrett".

oh boy. this is just like that thread from september where you were doing the same thing concerning wade phillips defenses and turnovers. So I will just rest my thoughts.

The only thing I will respond to is this. Yea I remember the first half of that giants game all too well thanks.

The difference in that game and the vikings game this year was, that game was at home. The vikings ends were killing us because of crowd noise. Edwards was a step and a half off the line when columbo started moving.

I contend had we played that game here, we go up and down the field on them just like we did in 07. the only thing different about that defense in 07 and this years is allen. And in all actuality they had sharper and ej henderson that day in 07. We moved the ball on them all day. I think we had 20 first downs in the first half.

I am not sure we wouldnt have had a 400 yard day had we played it at home.

and again to that giants game, they pushed us around in the first half in some respect. Its just that the two 90 yard 14 plus play drives negated it. Fatigue played a part no doubt, but it was also the giants just saying we are coming every down and attacking and we didnt do a good job picking it up.

even then, in the end if crayton doesnt have a mental mistake we score and win. thats just the way it goes. but they pushed us around pretty good in that game too.