ReDraft

beware_d-ware

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Nolan and Torrence FTW.
Those dudes weren't just BPAs, they were BPAs by a mile.

It's like 2020 all over again where we had CeeDee and that LSU dude available, but this time we pick LSU dude and go for need. "We're good at WR, we just traded for Amari Cooper."
 

Cowboys22

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Usually when a lot of people agree on something there might be something to it…that’s why it’s called a consensus.

And these are built and updated through the draft process not after the draft. I picked players based off of how highly ranked they were and how they fit into our needs.
Do teams run consensus schemes? Are teams all looking for the same players at each position? When you answer both those questions with the true answer, you will understand why internet consensus rankings are meaningless to an individual team who has scouted and ranked every player according to their specific wants and needs. They know all the medicals and red flags. They know all their plans and options at each position. They have looked years down the road at cap hits and other various issues they may face at each position. They know what veterans are available and what salaries they want. They know all the trade talks they have had. You know none of these things. All you know is this player has this number next to his name so he would have been a better pick. Then you do that at each draft slot and think it makes you smarter than the people actually earning a living doing it. By your standards, Jerry should fire all the scouts, save all that money, and just watch the draft show and see who the consensus best available players are. If he always picked a player from that list, guys like you would proclaim it the best draft ever and every pick was the biggest steal of the draft!
 

cnuball21

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Those dudes weren't just BPAs, they were BPAs by a mile.

It's like 2020 all over again where we had CeeDee and that LSU dude available, but this time we go LSU dude cause DE was a need. "We're good at WR, we just traded for Amari Cooper."
The worst part is they fit needs too. It’s not like a draft BPA then figure it out type deal.

Nolan walks in day 1 and can likely be your WILL plus pass rush demon and Torrence likely wins the LG job.
 

cnuball21

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Do teams run consensus schemes? Are teams all looking for the same players at each position? When you answer both those questions with the true answer, you will understand why internet consensus rankings are meaningless to an individual team who has scouted and ranked every player according to their specific wants and needs. They know all the medicals and red flags. They know all their plans and options at each position. They have looked years down the road at cap hits and other various issues they may face at each position. They know what veterans are available and what salaries they want. They know all the trade talks they have had. You know none of these things. All you know is this player has this number next to his name so he would have been a better pick. Then you do that at each draft slot and think it makes you smarter than the people actually earning a living doing it. By your standards, Jerry should fire all the scouts, save all that money, and just watch the draft show and see who the consensus best available players are. If he always picked a player from that list, guys like you would proclaim it the best draft ever and every pick was the biggest steal of the draft!
Scheme, Injuries, player contracts, etc of course all that stuff factors in.

But when you pick a player like Schoon in the 2nd who is slotted about 50+ slots lower than some players available I don’t think there is any justification I can get behind.

The TEs were coming off the board so they panicked and made a massive reach for need. It’s clear as day.
 

Acceptablename

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Cowboys draft below with consensus big board rankings in parenthesis.

1. Smith (35)
2. Schoon (101)
3. Overshown (105)
4. Fehoko (184)
5. Richards (209)
6. Scott Jr (N/A)
6. Vaughn (142)
7. Brooks (N/A)

Here’s how I would’ve taken a stab at it leaning more BPA while keeping needs considered.

1. Nolan Smith - LB (16)
2. Ocyrus Torrence - G (32)
3. Adetomiwa Adebawore - DL (43)
4. Tyler Scott - WR (78)
5. JL Skinner - S (92)
6. Duece Vaughn - RB (142)
7. Brayden Willis - TE (257)
I don’t mind the first pic I question the schooner pic. Now if the fifth pic becomes a solid player by next year i’ll be good with the second pick. I take into consideration we didn’t get a selection until 26 but I’ll see how it works out
 

Cowboys22

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Scheme, Injuries, player contracts, etc of course all that stuff factors in.

But when you pick a player like Schoon in the 2nd who is slotted about 50+ slots lower than some players available I don’t think there is any justification I can get behind.

The TEs were coming off the board so they panicked and made a massive reach for need. It’s clear as day.
Slotted by who? Oh yeah, people like you who know nothing about the team's plan for the offense. You are taking nothing into account except a number next to a name and think that makes you a football scout. Ridiculous!
 

cnuball21

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Slotted by who? Oh yeah, people like you who know nothing about the team's plan for the offense. You are taking nothing into account except a number next to a name and think that makes you a football scout. Ridiculous!
People like me, or draft analysts, or people that are paid and do it for a living.
 

Sydla

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Every year there are guys I want to follow because we took someone over that player. For example, there was a lot of debate here about Charlton versus Watt. So we all watched Watt and realized what a screw up that is.

Nolan Smith will be a guy I watch. Should we have taken him? Honestly, I don't know. Physical freak but there's a reason he dropped from the mocks having him in the Top 10-12 to almost out of the first round.
 

DBOY3141

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Not hating the Mazi pick but Nolan was one of my sleeper picks for us at 26. Thinking he would have been a great edge for us.
I would have taken Torrence at 58 sooo fast. Not sure why they felt they needed to take a blocking TE that high instead of him. Time will tell who was right.
Love the Overshown pick. He was another I had my hopes up for us landing. He's a DQ special in the making.
Not upset about Fehoko either. I love fire eaters like him on the D front.
Deuce's story is awesome. Not sure how much he plays for us but great story.
Reddick and Kiper stated Torrence is a RG only. Heavy feet, very limited lateral movement and getting to the second level. Built for a power rushing offense. Guessing Cowboys didn't see the fit. Time will tell. If he is only a RG...he's not beating out Martin for a few years...lol.
 

Cowboys22

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People like me, or draft analysts, or people that are paid and do it for a living.
None of which has even 10% of the necessary information to make an informed decision for a specific team. Suppose they had a deal worked out to trade for an OL or had a deal in place to sign one after the draft? Wouldn't that kind of information be helpful when picking which player to draft? Of course, which is why numbers next to names put there by less than fully informed individuals means nothing.
 

Cowboys22

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Reddick and Kiper stated Torrence is a RG only. Heavy feet, very limited lateral movement and getting to the second level. Built for a power rushing offense. Guessing Cowboys didn't see the fit. Time will tell. If he is only a RG...he's not beating out Martin for a few years...lol.
But but but he had a lower number next to his name and was on the best available list for 4 hours on Friday so everyone in the draft room has to be stupid for not drafting him.
 

cnuball21

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None of which has even 10% of the necessary information to make an informed decision for a specific team. Suppose they had a deal worked out to trade for an OL or had a deal in place to sign one after the draft? Wouldn't that kind of information be helpful when picking which player to draft? Of course, which is why numbers next to names put there by less than fully informed individuals means nothing.
Of course - so if we trade for a G I’ll just go to the next guy that was 50+ slots higher than Schoon.
 

gimmesix

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Cowboys draft below with consensus big board rankings in parenthesis.

1. Smith (35)
2. Schoon (101)
3. Overshown (105)
4. Fehoko (184)
5. Richards (209)
6. Scott Jr (N/A)
6. Vaughn (142)
7. Brooks (N/A)

Here’s how I would’ve taken a stab at it leaning more BPA while keeping needs considered.

1. Nolan Smith - LB (16)
2. Ocyrus Torrence - G (32)
3. Adetomiwa Adebawore - DL (43)
4. Tyler Scott - WR (78)
5. JL Skinner - S (92)
6. Duece Vaughn - RB (142)
7. Brayden Willis - TE (257)
It's interesting that Adebawore fell so much from where draft experts had him. It may be a situation where the gurus fell in love with his measurables while the scouts questioned his ability to produce.

Of course, the same can be said about some of our actual draft picks. Mazi's measurables were better than his production. Same with Schoonmaker. Of course, what we do know about those players is that Mazi is going to be a good run defender and Schoonmaker a good blocker no matter what else they do or don't contribute. There's nothing that Adewore is guaranteed to be good at, except running fast for a DL.
 

Cowboys22

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Reddick and Kiper stated Torrence is a RG only. Heavy feet, very limited lateral movement and getting to the second level. Built for a power rushing offense. Guessing Cowboys didn't see the fit. Time will tell. If he is only a RG...he's not beating out Martin for a few years...lol.
Actually just went and read his scouting report. Um, no thanks at all! Too many weaknesses and only a good fit for specific teams that just want size. Would much rather take an athletic OT and slide him inside.
 

cnuball21

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It's interesting that Adebawore fell so much from where draft experts had him. It may be a situation where the gurus fell in love with his measurables while the scouts questioned his ability to produce.

Of course, the same can be said about some of our actual draft picks. Mazi's measurables were better than his production. Same with Schoonmaker. Of course, what we do know about those players is that Mazi is going to be a good run defender and Schoonmaker a good blocker no matter what else they do or don't contribute. There's nothing that Adewore is guaranteed to be good at, except running fast for a DL.
Ade is basically a much better version of Sehoko. He had 27 run stops last year so he gives + run defense immediately.

He also had 30+ pressures and 6 sacks - he’s raw but has some pass rush production and his athletic profile gives him a high ceiling.
 

gimmesix

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Of course - so if we trade for a G I’ll just go to the next guy that was 50+ slots higher than Schoon.
My question when it comes to the guards is was he 50 slots higher because it was a weak guard class or because he was perceived to be 50 slots better. In other words, when there are four of five tight ends considered better than you because it's a strong class, it pushes down your value. When you are the best or second-best in a weak guard class, it pushes up your value. Players aren't graded in a vacuum. Value is relative to what's available. Fewer good guards being available in this draft drives up the value of those who are. More good tight ends being available drives down the value of those who are.

Without Kincard, Musgrave and LaPorta, Mayer probably ends up being a first-round pick. Without Kincaid, Mayer and Musgrave, LaPorta probably ends up being rated quite a bit higher and probably a first-round pick.
 

cnuball21

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My question when it comes to the guards is was he 50 slots higher because it was a weak guard class or because he was perceived to be 50 slots better. In other words, when there are four of five tight ends considered better than you because it's a strong class, it pushes down your value. When you are the best or second-best in a weak guard class, it pushes up your value. Players aren't graded in a vacuum. Value is relative to what's available. Fewer good guards being available in this draft drives up the value of those who are. More good tight ends being available drives down the value of those who are.

Without Kincard, Musgrave and LaPorta, Mayer probably ends up being a first-round pick. Without Kincaid, Mayer and Musgrave, LaPorta probably ends up being rated quite a bit higher and probably a first-round pick.
The rankings are based on comparison to peers in this class and don’t seem to factor in positional value much.

And I actually disagree. Ex - it was a very strong DE class but that didn’t keep great prospects to slide in the rankings because of that. I believe the 6th rated DE was still in the top 32.
 

gimmesix

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Every year there are guys I want to follow because we took someone over that player. For example, there was a lot of debate here about Charlton versus Watt. So we all watched Watt and realized what a screw up that is.

Nolan Smith will be a guy I watch. Should we have taken him? Honestly, I don't know. Physical freak but there's a reason he dropped from the mocks having him in the Top 10-12 to almost out of the first round.
I prefer position-specific comparisons. For example, the player comparison that interests me compared to our first-rounder is Bryan Bresee. It's not apples to apples because Mazi is probably a 1-tech while Bresee is a 3-tech, but we can certainly see whose career turns out better.
 

gimmesix

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The rankings are based on comparison to peers in this class and don’t seem to factor in positional value much.

And I actually disagree. Ex - it was a very strong DE class but that didn’t keep great prospects to slide in the rankings because of that. I believe the 6th rated DE was still in the top 32.
Yes, but some positions also carry higher value. Teams are much more likely to draft DEs early than TEs even of comparable value, so the DEs are generally going to be rated higher than the TEs., especially in a heavier class.

I don't agree with you that positional value/depth of class doesn't affect overall value.
 
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